"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[pnattmbtc]

pnattmbtc:

God miraculously parted the Red Sea. The Egyptians arrogantly followed behind the Israelites, with the intention of killing them. God was under no moral obligation to miraculously part the Red Sea so the Egyptians could kill the Israelites. God ceased parting the Red Sea, and it returned to its natural state.

God didn't pick up the Red Sea and hurl it at the Egyptians. He simply ceased the miracle He was performing.

What do you think?

J:You almost got it. If you look at Exodus 14 carefully, and at what Ellen White says,you will see that angels of God "took off the wheels of the chariots," and then when the Egyptians decided to retreat back to the shore, God commanded Moses to stretch out his staff, and that's when God caused the water to sweep over the Egyptians.

[pnattmbtc]

John317, please respond to these two posts:

1.post 341067. This is a long post, so you needn't respond to the whole thing, but please respond to the part which says, "I've explained several times that our difference is ontological, not epistemological." and following.

2.post #341071. This is a short post. Please respond to the whole post.

[pnattmbtc]

God didn't make Saul commit suicide. God accomplishes His will without forcing the will and choices of human beings.

So you're asserting that God willed that Saul committed suicide. You don't see a problem with this? We should desire that others commit suicide?

[pnattmbtc]

And He took off their chariot wheels, so that they drove them with difficulty

You can't drive a chariot without wheels. So it probably means the wheels got stuck in the mud...

This is how I read this. Not that evil angels took the wheels off their chariots, but they got stuck in the mud. That makes perfect sense. It makes more sense then that they could ride chariots in the mud with no problem.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc:

This is how I read this. Not that evil angels took the wheels off their chariots, but they got stuck in the mud. That makes perfect sense. It makes more sense then that they could ride chariots in the mud with no problem.

Where does either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say that evil angels helped God and Moses destroy the Egyptians in the Red Sea?

You completely violate the meaning and sigificance of the Ellen White statement:

"Angels of God went through their host and removed their chariot wheels." 1 SP 209

[teresaq]

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pnattmbtc:

God miraculously parted the Red Sea. The Egyptians arrogantly followed behind the Israelites, with the intention of killing them. God was under no moral obligation to miraculously part the Red Sea so the Egyptians could kill the Israelites. God ceased parting the Red Sea, and it returned to its natural state.

God didn't pick up the Red Sea and hurl it at the Egyptians. He simply ceased the miracle He was performing.

What do you think?

You almost got it. If you look at Exodus 14 carefully, and at what Ellen White says,you will see that angels of God "took off the wheels of the chariots," and then when the Egyptians decided to retreat back to the shore, God commanded Moses to stretch out his staff, and that's when God caused the water to sweep over the Egyptians. Any child can see that it was not coincidental that the water went back when it did.

This is a clear example of God destroying wicked people. As you say, the Egyptians were attempting to kill the people of God or return them to slavery. God wasn't going to allow either of those things to happen.

yes, pnattmbtc,

and looking at exodus 14 carefully we see,

Exo 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them;

Exo 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel:

Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them:

[John317]

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John317: God didn't make Saul commit suicide. God accomplishes His will without forcing the will and choices of human beings.

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pnattmbtc: So you're asserting that God willed that Saul committed suicide.

I am saying exactly what the Bible itself says: God killed Saul. That means that God used the circumstances to remove Saul from the throne and end his life, which had become dedicated to fighting against God. By that time, Saul was a lost man. He was never going to change, and God knew it. That is clear from the biblical narrative as well as from the writings of Ellen White.

It certainly was NOT God's will at that point for Saul to continue to live and be on the throne of Israel. Saul had passed his probation. The same will happen to the rebellious who pass their probation in complete and utter rebellion against God. When Christ returns as King and Judge, you can be sure it will not be God's will for the finally impentinant to be saved in His kingdom.

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pnattmbtc: You don't see a problem with this?

Not at all.

Are you saying you believe the evidence is that God's will at that point was for Saul to continue to live? Where do you find it?

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pnattmbtc: We should desire that others commit suicide?

Of course not.

Consider well this statement by Ellen G. White:

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of his subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harrassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." 12 MR 209

[teresaq]

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pnattmbtc:

This is how I read this. Not that evil angels took the wheels off their chariots, but they got stuck in the mud. That makes perfect sense. It makes more sense then that they could ride chariots in the mud with no problem.

Where does either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say that evil angels helped God and Moses destroy the Egyptians in the Red Sea?

You completely violate the meaning and sigificance of the Ellen White statement:

"Angels of God went through their host and removed their chariot wheels." 1 SP 209

[skyblue888]

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of his subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harrassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." 12 MR 209

John, personally, I have no problem with this language. It is consistent with everything we read in the Bible and Mrs. White is consistent using the same language. What the Lord does is always done in righteousness for in Him there is no unrighteousness. This statement clearly says that God drowned the vast world just as the Bible says He did. I believe that but I also believe that He did it in righteousness. He certainly punished the antediluvians. But we must remember that His ways of punishing and destroying are different from man's. The conditions before the flood were much different than they are today. When the Spirit of God was finally withdrawn from that race, the moon lost its light and the sun was dimmed and thus there was nothing to hold the mantle of vapor that so far had been kept in suspension above the earth and it returned back to the earth. So here we can see that it was nature out of control that caused the antediluvians to be swept away by the waters of the flood. God took the blame for their destruction since they depended upon His providence to keep that mantle of vapor in suspension. Once their cup of iniquity was full, the Spirit of God could no longer keep that mantle of vapor in suspension and the rest is history.

In the book The Great Controversy, we are told that the Spirit of God is again being progressively withdrawn from the earth until it shall be fully withdrawn and when it is probation will close and it is said that then Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent. These judgments which are to befall the earth after the close of probation will not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way--the people of today, like the antediluvians, will place themselves beyond His protection and the Spirit of God will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work. Once again the language of the Bible is that the angels of God will be pouring out the vials of God's wrath upon the world but only in righteousness, that is, they will no longer be able to hold the winds of strife.

sky

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda):

and looking at exodus 14 carefully we see,

Exo 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them;

Exo 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel:

Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them:

We've already discussed all those verses, and I think we're all in agreement as to their meaning. I believe it's safe to say the entire SDA church agrees that God did not make Pharaoh resist God's will. It was Pharaoh's decision to resist God. But it was also God's will that Pharaoh resist God's plan for Israel to go free. Yet, as said before, God is able to fulfill His own will without violating the freedom of people's choices. Pharaoh freely chose to resist God's plan to free His people.

However, it cannot be said that God did not use force against the Pharaoh in order to free Israel from Egyptian bondage. Ellen White herself says that the Egyptians allowed Israel to go because the Egyptians feared they would all die if they did not do so. "They implored [israel] to be gone, fearing if they continued longer, they would be all as dead men." 4 SG 246 If that is not an example of using force or of compelling, I don't know what is.

Look at Ex. 3: 19, 20:

God is speaking:

"I know, however, that the king of Egypt will not let you go without the use of FORCE; so I will stretch out my hand and smite Egypt with all the marvels that I shall perform in it; after that he will let you go." Goodspeed's Complete Bible.

(Instead of "the use of force" (3: 19), the King James Version reads, "by a mighty hand." It refers to "mighty power," "compelling force." The word translated "mighty" often carries the connotation of violence. See Hebrew Lexions.)

Exodus 4: 21:

"When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the portents which I have put in your power; but I will make him obstinate, so that he will not let the people go."

Compare Ex. 7: 3; 9: 12; 10: 2, 27;

Why was it God's will for Pharaoh to refuse to listen to God? Because, as God says in Ex. 9: 16, He wanted to demonstrate His power before the Egyptians and Israelites and to have His fame recounted throughout all the earth. As He also said in Ex. 11: 9, "Pharaoh does not listen to you, IN ORDER THAT my portents may be multiplied in the land of Egypt."

Also, "I have made Pharaoh and his courtiers stubborn, in order that I may perform these signs of mine among them, and in order that you may tell your sons and grandsons how I made a toy of the Egyptians and what signs I performed among them; so that you may know that I am the Lord." Ex. 10: 2.

Also, the Bible gives proof that it was God's will even before either Israel or Egypt went into the sea for the Egyptians to perish in the Red sea. Ex. 14: 17, 18, "I will make the Egyptians obstinate, so that they will go in [the Red Sea] after them, and thus I will gain honor through Pharaoh and all his infantry, chariotry, and cavalry, so that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord, when I have gained honor through Pharaoh, his chariotry, and cavalry."

These verses reveal at least three facts to us:

1) It was God's will from the beginning for Pharoah to refuse to let Israel go until God had performed his mighty acts, i.e., caused the plagues to fall on Egypt. We can see from the biblical evidence that this was God's expressed will even before Moses had gone into Pharaoh with God's command to let Israel go.

2) It was God's will for Israel to escape across the Red Sea and for Egypt to perish in the waters. God caused the waters to swallow up the Egytpians while they were attempting to escape the waters by returning to the shores from whence they had come. This is especially clear in Ellen White's writings, but it is clear also in the Exodus narrative.

3) God did not violate Pharaoh's will or the wills of the Egyptian soldiers. It was Pharaoh's choice to resist God, and it was the decision of the soldiers to obey the orders of Pharaoh to enter the Red Sea.

[skyblue888]

Now John you are quoting from the new versions which cannot be said to be trustworthy since they the translators did not understand that language any more than many adventists do. The Old Versions did not try to paraphrase but they kept as close to the Hebrew as possible.

I read your post quickly and I was shocked at the way you handled this whole matter. I need to go to bed but I will respond tomorrow. You still have not commented on my last posts before you went out to eat your Pizza.

sky

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc:

This is how I read this. Not that evil angels took the wheels off their chariots, but they got stuck in the mud. That makes perfect sense. It makes more sense then that they could ride chariots in the mud with no problem.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Where does either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say that evil angels helped God and Moses destroy the Egyptians in the Red Sea?

You completely violate the meaning and sigificance of the Ellen White statement:

"Angels of God went through their host and removed their chariot wheels." 1 SP 209

Quote:

skyblue: "...the evil angels took off the wheels of their chariots and thus they had no way to escape from the waves when they returned."

The problem here, as I see it, is that both pnattmbtc and sky reject the clear statement of Ellen White that the angels of God removed the wheels.

The statement by Ellen White and the Bible shows plainly that it was God who was responsible for the wheels of the chariots not working. It wasn't a natural event but was something done in accordance with God's command to His angels.

[John317]

That's kind of what we had tonight: the all-you-can-eat salad and two pizzas, one of which I brought back home with us. I took them out tonight because my wife is on vacation and is taking our daughters with her up to Northern California for a week-end visit at her sister's.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: This is a clear example of God destroying wicked people.

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pnattmbtc: I agree!

OK, so you agree that God has destroyed wicked people before; in this case, the Egyptian army in the midst of the sea.

In doing so, God also used force-- not only force in getting Israel free of bondage, but force in keeping the Egyptian army from escaping. They were attempting to retrace their steps back to the shore from which they had come, but the statement in the Bible and SOP make it clear that God did not want them to get out of the Red Sea. God told Moses to put forth his staff so that the water would cover up the Egyptians.

God said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand over the sea, in order that the water may flow back upon the Egyptians, upon their chariotry and cavalry." Exodus 14: 26.

I submit that the language-- "so that," "in order that," or "that" --shows intention and planning.

These examples prove beyond a doubt that the so-called "universal principle" is not really universal at all, since God has both destroyed and used force.

[Robert]

Remember that the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy show that it is because of God's love and mercy to the universe that He destroys the wicked.

Dad to son:

Son, you came home drunk last night. Your mom ask you not to do this, but when she confronted you all you did was call her a bad name.

Son both us love you - we would give our lives for you, in fact we love you more than ourselves, but because you are a bad influence on the rest of the family your mom and I have to punish you.

Tomorrow we are going to tie you up, douse you with alcohol and light a match. Don't worry, though, the alcohol with evaporate quickly and as soon as it does mom and I will douse you again so they we can extend your pain.

But remember, son, we love you. The problem is that you are a bad influence and we need to punish you so the whole family can see what we will do to those who do evil in our home.

18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

[Robert]

I am saying exactly what the Bible itself says: God killed Saul. That means that God used the circumstances to remove Saul from the throne and end his life, which had become dedicated to fighting against God. By that time, Saul was a lost man.

I'm God, I love you more than myself, but if you piss me off I will kill you SOB. Test...just test me!

Yeah, that's the type of God I want to admire and follow. Such a warm wonderful Father, but hey that's okay with me if He acts like a cruel Father because I'm sucking up so I'll be on His good side.

[Robert]

These examples prove beyond a doubt that the so-called "universal principle" is not really universal at all, since God has both destroyed and used force.

Yes, in your militaristic mind....

[Robert]

That's kind of what we had tonight: the all-you-can-eat salad and two pizzas , one of which I brought back home with us. I took them out tonight because my wife is on vacation and is taking our daughters with her up to Northern California for a week-end visit at her sister's.

"Cheese is still more objectionable; it is wholly unfit for food." [EGW]

You must be stoned....You must be taken out side the pizza hut and be stoned. Then all those who eat this food will fear.....I must purge the evil from among you - you who disobey your prophet.

[John317]

Now John you are quoting from the new versions which cannot be said to be trustworthy since they the translators did not understand that language any more than many adventists do.

The translators I'm using are well-known authorities in the Hebrew language. Two of the translations I quoted are by Jewish scholars who are professional translators of the Hebrew. Many of the other translations are done by committees of scholars from many denominations so that their translations are more objective. I have over 60 translations of the book of Exodus, and not a single one shows the "mighty hand" to be that of the Pharaoh.

If you like, we can look closely at the significance of the "mighty hand," comparing the various translations to the King James Version and New American Standard.

Do you know of any Bible scholar or commentator who says that "the mighty hand" referred to in Ex. 3: 19 belongs to Pharaoh? If so, please name him/them and give the name of their commentary/book/ article.

By the way, there are actually some Adventists who know the Hebrew language quite well. For instance, the Jewish Adventist Hebew scholar, Jacques B. Doukhan, and the SDA professor of Hebrew, Roy Gane. Both teach Hebrew at Andrews Theological Seminary.

Quote:

The Old Versions did not try to paraphrase but they kept as close to the Hebrew as possible.

Most of the translations I quoted are true translations and not paraphrases. It doesn't matter if you go by the "old versions" or not: the result is the same, that the "mighty hand" is describing the use of force on the part of God in order to obtain the release of Israel from slavery.

Also the point I would make here is that when you look at the way Ex. 6: 1 and 3: 19 are translated by all translators, you will see that all Bible scholars are agreed that the "mighty hand" or "strong hand" in those verses refers to the hand of God, not the hand of the Pharaoh.

[John317]

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skyblue888: In the book The Great Controversy, we are told that the Spirit of God is again being progressively withdrawn from the earth until it shall be fully withdrawn and when it is probation will close and it is said that then Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent.

Yes, I certainly agree.

Quote:

These judgments which are to befall the earth after the close of probation will not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way--the people of today, like the antediluvians, will place themselves beyond His protection and the Spirit of God will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work. Once again the language of the Bible is that the angels of God will be pouring out the vials of God's wrath upon the world but only in righteousness, that is, they will no longer be able to hold the winds of strife.

I haven't decided whether the Seven Last Plagues are from God or because God allows Satan to do his evil deeds. I am re-reading everything in the Bible and Spirit of prophecy about them.

What are the clearest passages you know which you believe prove they are of Satan?

EW 36, 43-44, 52, 64, 65, 71, 85-86, 91-92, 123, 124, 261, 280-281, 289, 290; Te 200-202; TM 182-183, 431-432--- all these are excellent quotes, but I find the very last quote listed here the most interesting and informative as to their origins. I believe this last quote, from TM 431-432, shows that the seven last plagues come from God, not Satan. But I will keep studying and not make up my mind until I have seen all the evidence and listened to all points of view.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17:

If you look at Exodus 14 carefully, and at what Ellen White says,you will see that angels of God "took off the wheels of the chariots," and then when the Egyptians decided to retreat back to the shore, God commanded Moses to stretch out his staff, and that's when God caused the water to sweep over the Egyptians.

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pnattmbtc: This indicated that God was removing His protection. God ceased protecting the Egyptians from the law of gravity, and they perished.

Yes, you might say so. I prefer the way the Bible and SOP puts it: God commanded Moses to stretch out his staff so that the waters would drown the Egyptians. Of course we know that Moses' staff was NOT a signal for Satan to act but rather a signal for God to perform His great and mighty miracles. See Ex. 4: 1-4. It certainly wasn't Satan who was causing the staff to become serpents. He couldn't do it. Nor could Satan make the dust become gnats. That only leaves one Person it could be: the Creator.

As I've said before, when God took away His protection from the Egyptians He knew what the result would be. He was right to do it. Let's just be honest about it. God doesn't need our "protection," as if He's done an evil thing by destroying the wicked and saving His people from harm. On the contrary, God did a great and marvellous work on behalf of His people, something that should cause us to praise Him just as the ancient Israelites did. See Ex. 15.

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JOHN3:17: Any child can see that it was not coincidental that the water went back when it did.

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pnattmbtc: Any child can see that no one was suggesting that the water went back when it did coincidentally.

OK, that's great. Just wanted to be sure no one would make that claim. I can imagine some saying that God didn't make it happen, but it just happened naturally because God took away His power that was keeping the water separated. That isn't what you are saying, is it?

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JOHN3:17: This is a clear example of God destroying wicked people.

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pnattmbtc: I agree!

Then we completely agree on this point: God clearly destroyed wicked people at the Red Sea.

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pnattmbtc: And how did He do so? By removing His protection.

Well, the Bible actually says that God told Moses to stretch out his staff SO THAT the water of the sea would go back over the Egyptians and drown them. The language used in Ex. 14: 26-28 shows that there was an intention to bring an end to the Egytpians in the sea. This is why I say that it was not coincidental that the water returned when it did: it was unquestionably done on purpose at the exact time when the Egyptians were trying to make their escape back to shore. This is a very important point and one that ought not to be ignored or lost sight of, because it goes to the very issue we're discussing: whether God has ever destroyed or used force. I'm sure if I had done that, virtually every soul on earth would conclude that I had destroyed them and used force against them.

I'm sure you'll agree that if I intentionally removed my protection from someone with the purpose that they will die as a direct result of my action, is there anyone who would say at the Inquest that I bore no responsibility for the individual's death? I doubt it.

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pnattmbtc: He didn't hurl the water against the Egyptians, but ceased His protecting activity.

Yes, God did not hurl water against the Egyptians, but of course it wouldn't be necessary for Him to do so in order for God to have destroyed those wicked people. It was enough that He commanded Moses to put out his staff so that the water returned to where it had been and in doing so would drown the Egyptians. That's clear and obvious. You've already admitted as much. We agree. :-)

[Robert]

I'm sure you'll agree that if I intentionally removed my protection from someone with the purpose that they will die as a direct result of my action, is there anyone who would say at the Inquest that I bore no responsibility for the individual's death? I doubt it.

God is love....Translated, "God is agape". One of the characteristics of agape is that it does not force or coerce. When God is rejected He doesn't get angry...He doesn't kill and destroy. He goes elsewhere. Otherwise God would be forcing Himself on those who reject Him.

If someone's teenager was playing ball in a dangerous highway his parents have two choices:

1] To plead with him not to

or

2] To literally lock him in his room.

God doesn't do # 2. Why? Agape doesn't force....

[Robert]

"The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah" (2 Sam. 24:2).

"Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel" (1 Chron. 21:1)

God said He moved David to number Israel. Then He says Satan did it.

One of my questions to God when I get in the gates is why did you make the Bible so complicated? I'm sure He will have an answer that makes total sense then.

However, I must remind all that Abraham, our Father, never had any Scripture. He lived by faith. He didn't have the Ten Commandments...He didn't have the book of Moses. He didn't have the writings of Paul or EGW.

My point? An exact understanding of God is not prerequisite for salvation. Like Paul states in the context of God's love, "Now we see a blurred image in a mirror. Then we will see very clearly - face to face. Now my knowledge is incomplete. Then I will have complete knowledge as God has complete knowledge of me." [1 Cor 13:12]

[Robert]

An exact understanding of God is not prerequisite for salvation. Like Paul states in the context of God's love, "Now we see a blurred image in a mirror. Then we will see very clearly - face to face. Now my knowledge is incomplete. Then I will have complete knowledge as God has complete knowledge of me." [1 Cor 13:12]

Wherever there is an impulse of love [agape] and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God’s Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The “Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God.

[Twilight]

Yes she says that the angels took off the wheels but that simply means that they could no longer protect the Egyptian soldiers and the evil angels were free to take the wheels off their charriots. This is how the angels of God are said to have taken the wheels off their chariots.

Satan could no longer use the Egyptian armies against the Israelites. He had no more use for them and here was an opportunity to exterminate them all. Since God's protection was removed from them, he summoned his angels to take the wheels off their chariots so that there would remain no escape from the returning waves.

sky

How about:

Gods angels stood back so that Satan and his cohorts could undo the wheelnuts, then Gods angels gave them a spin to the left and then the right.

Satans angels then took the tire pressure.

Then Gods angels repaired the punctures.

Then Satans angels took them off...

Sky, my friend, you are supplying something that is not even there in the scripture...