"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Were any of these things caused by God:

1) The Flood

2) The confusion of the languages at the tower of Babel

3) The destruction of Sodom

4) The Exodus of Israel out of Egypt, including the destruction of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea

[John317]

Quote:

Robert:

Doesn't make sense for God to kill....It's all so inconsistent. How? God kills his creation because of sin (in your view), but the author of sin is allowed to keep on keeping on. Why not stop sin at its source?

It seems to me you are asking questions that you should have had answers to a long time ago.

God will stop sin at its source, but only after the great controversy is completely finished and everyone has made up his mind to either follow God or Satan.

As for the flood, read Gen. 6: 5-14. What does God say in those verses that He's going to do? Do you believe God? Did He mean what He said? Is the Bible truthful?

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Complete obedience does not mean believers don't make mistakes or ever commit a sin.

Quote:

ROBERT: Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says,“This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

I have a very hard time taking your quotes of Ellen White seriously. You've said so often that you don't really believe in her but that you only use her to make points with Adventists, and you also often cross out Ellen White's name or her quotes whenever you don't agree with them or like them.

The quote above is a good one when taken in context. If you would actually read her in order to understand what she is saying, you would see that she isn't saying that obedient believers, who keep God's commandments, never sin or make mistakes. For instance, Rev. 12: 17 and 14: 12 is not pointing to a people who have never sinned before. They are said to keep the commandments of God and this obviously doesn't mean they never sinned or are sinless.

Please study 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Which Christian philosophers take your position? Can you tell some of their books on this subject that you've read?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: "God, Time and Knowledge" by William Hasker.

Yes, I know of the book but I haven't read it. He basically denies the foreknowledge of God.

Have you read books or essays that argue against Hasker's ideas on the foreknowledge of God?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Another book I've read which goes into this, although the author is not a Christian philosopher, like Hasker is (but he does discuss quite a number of philosophical arguments) is "Satan and the Problem of Evil" by Greg Boyd.

OK, this book is similar in some ways to Hasker's book, particularly in terms of Boyd's view of God's foreknowledge.

I would probably have greater interest in reading Boyd's book than Hasker's, if I were to choose to read one of them.

JOHN3:17: All we know is what the Bible and SOP tell us about these matters, which is that God knows the end from the beginning, but that, as said before, God took a real risk in sending the pre-incarnate Christ to come to this world as a man. I assert that it was "imperiled" simply on the testimony of the prophet of God, in whom I have complete confidence as the messenger of God.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: This looks like the Lutheran position. You appear to be recognizing that your position is logically impossible, but you're going to assert it anyway, because this is what you believe is Scriptural. I don't believe it's necessary for us to have a position which is logically impossible.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: No, I'm not a Lutheran. I'm a Seventh-day Adventist.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: I didn't say you were Lutheran, but your position appears to be similar to the Lutherans in that they assert that there position is Scriptural, although they recognize it may not be logical.

You said something like that before, but you do not say specifically what my position is that is similar to the position taken by Lutherans.

How is the position I take different, in your view, from the position that you believe the Seventh-day Adventist church takes?

And second, what do you believe Ellen White's position is?

[John317]

Here are the situations where she says God would not use force or compulsion:

1. God does not use: to make men accept truth AA 241; 6BC 1112

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

2. to make men be good 5T 445

3. to make men do right MH 114

4. to oppress His creatures 2BC 999

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

5. external force, not employed in work of redemption DA 466

6. exercise of force, contrary to principles of God’s government in winning service DA 22

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

How did Jesus expel demons from demon-possessed people except by force?

Excellent references and points, Gerry. Thank you. This shows that it is inaccurate to say that God never uses force under any circumstances. If only people would keep these things in mind!

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc:

Why do you suppose she says that compelling power is only to be found in the government of Satan? What does this mean?

Quote:

Gerry:

I gave you several references where God does not use force:

1. God does not use force to gain allegiance.

2. God does not use force to make people behave.

3. God does not use force to overpower the will.

4. God does not use force in the work of redemption.

5. God does not use force to compel the conscience.

6. God never uses force to bring men to Christ.

7. God does not use coercion to present the truth.

8. God does not coerce man's will.

In contrast, Satan uses force to accomplish all that God would not do above.

Excellent information. Thank you.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Ok, so in answer to my question, what does "compelling power is only found in the government of Satan mean?" your answer is that, in certain circumstances, including (and limited to(?)) the above 8 points, God does not use compelling power. In other circumstances, however, He does. So the statement that compelling power is only to be found in Satan's government is not true as a general statement, but only in certain specific circumstances. I've understood you correctly?

God has obviously used force before in the Bible, and the Bible and SOP portray God as using force again in the future, and therefore it is impossible for Ellen White's statement to be intended to be understood as a univeral principle that applies to every act of God throughout the history of world.

God used force to transfer the war from heaven to the earth. This force did not overcome the rebellion, and neither did it defeat Satan. God also used force to put an end to the sinful race prior to the Flood and to begin anew with the descendents of Noah.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Also, in your list, you didn't include the circumstance of the context of DA 759, the passage under discussion. The context there is the destruction of Satan, and the overcoming of rebellion. So let's add those:

9. God does not destroy Satan by force.

10. God does not overcome rebellion by force.

Ellen White's statements in context show that she is saying that God will not destroy Satan until the whole universe sees Satan's true character. Notice that she doesn't say God will never destroy Satan, but that He wouldn't have destroyed him at the beginning because it would have caused angels to serve God out of fear, and they wouldn't have understood the real motives and character of Satan.

It is true that God will not use force to overcome the rebellion.

The rebellion has already been defeated by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

Quote:

Gerry: Did Christ use force to drive demons out from demon-possessed people?

Quote:

pnattmbtc:No.

How did Christ drive out the demons from those who were possessed? Do they leave voluntarily? In what way do you mean Jesus did not use force to drive them out? How are you defining "force"? Look closely at Mark 1: 25-27. Jesus commanded the demons and they had to obey. They had no choice but to obey, right? How is that not being forced to leave?

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda), quoting EGW: He was expelled from heaven, and apparently Christ was alone with him in the wilderness of temptation. Yet He was not alone, for angels were round Him just as angels of God are commissioned to minister unto those who are under the fearful assaults of the enemy. Christ was in the wilderness with the one with whom there was war in heaven, and the one whom He overcome; and Satan was defeated. {16MR 180.3}

Now Satan meets Him under different circumstances, as the glory that was round about Him is no longer visible. He has humbled Himself, taken upon Himself our nature. And He came into the world to stand at the head of humanity whom Satan had deceived, and to fight His battles in behalf of the race whom Satan has deceived through his lying power. {16MR 180.4}

Divinity flashed through humanity, and Satan was peremptorily repulsed. “Get thee hence, Satan,” Christ said. . . . It was enough. Satan could go no further. Angels ministered to the Saviour. Angels brought Him food. The severity of this conflict no human mind can compass. The welfare of the whole human family and of Christ Himself was at stake. One admission from Christ, one word of concession, and the world would be claimed by Satan as his; and he, the prince of the power of darkness would, he supposed, commence his rule. There appeared unto Christ an angel from heaven, for the conflict ended. Human power was ready to fail. But all heaven sang the song of eternal victory.—Letter 116, 1899 (Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 94, 95). {CTr 196.5}

These are great quotes. They show that there is a real spiritual war going on. Ellen White says that when Christ told Satan to "be gone," Satan had no choice but to obey.

"SATAN HAD NO POWER TO RESIST THE COMMAND. Writhing with humiliation and rage, HE WAS FORCED TO WITHDRAW from the presence of the world's redeemer... So we may resist temptation, and FORCE Satan to depart from us." DA 130

This is positive proof that God uses compelling force against Satan and the evil angels. Therefore, there is no "universal principle" that God will never use force in the war against Satan. The only way this could be denied is to re-define "force" in such a way that "force" is no longer "force." Since, however, this has been done before, I suppose we can anticipate that it will be done once again in order to escape the only logical conclusion.

[Robert]

Quote:

Robert:

Doesn't make sense for God to kill....It's all so inconsistent. How? God kills his creation because of sin (in your view), but the author of sin is allowed to keep on keeping on. Why not stop sin at its source?

God will stop sin at its source, but only after the great controversy is completely finished and everyone has made up his mind to either follow God or Satan.

Well, it seems at the flood everyone had decided, accept 8 folks, so that would have been a great time to stop sin at its source.

[Robert]

I have a very hard time taking your quotes of Ellen White seriously. You've said so often that you don't really believe in her but that you only use her to make points with Adventists, and you also often cross out Ellen White's name or her quotes whenever you don't agree with them or like them.

The quote above is a good one when taken in context. If you would actually read her in order to understand what she is saying, you would see that she isn't saying that obedient believers, who keep God's commandments, never sin or make mistakes.

You aren't looking at her context. Let me help:

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-01

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

Ellen White says that many will suffer for days, and Satan will suffer many days after the others have ceased to exist.

If I speed I'll get a ticket. That takes money from my wallet...that hurts. The idea is that this suffering will get me to rethink if I should break the speed limit. In other words suffering motivates possible change.

This isn't true when it comes to the lost. Suffering for their sins doesn't bring a change. It has no value...it does nothing. Therefore it's torture and God isn't a sadist, right John?

The Bible, not EGW, states that "the wages of sin is death". Nothing about torture....

Yes?

[Robert]

in the war against Satan.

Military language again....

[John317]

Quote:

John317 NOTE: Again, in whatever way one interprets this, the fact remains that God is ultimately responsible for the destruction of the wicked as well as the salvation of the righteous. It is His will that sin and sinners are finally no more and that the righteous live throughout eternity. If this were not true, the book of Revelation would have no reason to give all the praise to God for bringing about the end of sin and Satan and the salvation of the righteous. Inspiration says these things "must take place" (Rev. 1: 1; 22: 6).

Quote:

pnattmbtc: This is incorrect for a couple of reasons. First of all, the Great Controversy is all about showing who is responsible for the destruction of sinners, and the judgment will reveal that it is not God, the Satan/sin/sinners themselves who are responsible for their destruction.

We're referring to two different types of destruction. People certainly and without question are responsible for the destruction of their own soul's salvation. God wants people to be saved, so He is definitely not out to destroy them. However, once people decide against God, and God knows they are not going to change, then God has no other choice but to destroy them. I'm talking about the literal destruction of the wicked in fire after they have already been lost. See Mal. 4: 1, 3.

Ellen White says, "God will destroy the wicked from off the earth." PP 110

Also: "The wicked will He destroy... God executes justice upon the wicked." GC 541

"It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that CAUSE the destruction or death of the wicked." EW 52

Quote:

pnattmbtc: DA 764, in particular, repeatedly makes this point:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.

Compare DA 758-764, which makes clear that Ellen White is speaking of Satan's destruction by God, and not a matter of Satan's simply lying down and dying.

God leaves people to reap the results of their sins too, and they are said to "perish." But we understand that to mean they are finally destroyed. It is the same with Satan and the evil angels. Ellen White refers to Satan's destruction as "perishing," in DA 763. "Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch--Satan the root, and his followers the branches." Yet she says over and over again that they will be destroyed by fire.

Notice the sentence: "God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He DID NOT do this."

She doesn't say, "He would not do this" but "HE did not do this." She doesn't say God would never destroy Satan.

In fact, in many places, Ellen White says plainly that God will eventually destroy Satan and all his followers.

So, speaking of the death of Christ, Ellen White says, "Satan was not then destroyed."

Why not? Because, she says, angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. But when the universe does understand, it will be time to destroy Satan and all those who choose to follow him. "It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace." GC 543.

On page 764 of Desire of Ages, Ellen White is very clear that at last Satan and his wicked followers will be destroyed when the great controversy shall be ended. "THEN the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love"-- something it would not have done if Satan had been destroyed at the beginning, before he'd had opportunity to show his true characeter.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: in the war against Satan.

Quote:

ROBERT: Military language again....

That is because the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy use it. The inspired prophets of God called the pre-incarnate Christ "the captain of the Lord's army." The Scriptures refer to God as "the Lord of armies."

If you have a problem with this language, your quarrel is with the Bible and with God. I am using the language of Scripture and of the Spirit of prophecy.

The War is real, and so is the victory.

Better get used to hearing it, because you are going to hear it often.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: God will stop sin at its source, but only after the great controversy is completely finished and everyone has made up his mind to either follow God or Satan.

Quote:

ROBERT: Well, it seems at the flood everyone had decided, accept 8 folks, so that would have been a great time to stop sin at its source.

It seems to me that your problem is that you want to tell God how and when to punish the wicked. Let God be God. He is not only a Father but also the Judge and the One who will decide when and how to destroy Satan and his wicked followers. It really doesn't matter to me how He gets it accomplished as long as it gets done and He's able to remake the earth as it was before sin entered.

[skyblue888]

It seems to me that your problem is that you want to tell God how and when to punish the wicked. Let God be God. He is not only a Father but also the Judge and the One who will decide when and how to destroy Satan and his wicked followers. It really doesn't matter to me how He gets it accomplished as long as it gets done and He's able to remake the earth as it was before sin entered.

John317

_____________________________________________________

John, think about it, the Lord has already revealed to us, in Ezekiel 28:6-10, WHERE and WHEN and HOW Satan will be destroyed. Are we listening to Him? It DOES MATTER how He gets it accomplished. Why, because this is at the very heart of the controversy. "Tradition and misintepretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." The Great Controversy, p.492.

‘Therefore thus says the Lord GOD (to Satan):

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,

Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,

The most terrible of the nations; And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, And defile your splendor.

They shall throw you down into the Pit,

And you shall die the death of the slain

In the midst of the seas.

“Will you still say before him who slays you,

‘I am a god’?

But you shall be a man, and not a god,

In the hand of him who slays you.

You shall die the death of the uncircumcised

By the hand of aliens; For I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD.’”

sky

[teresaq]

Which Christian philosophers take your position? Can you tell some of their books on this subject that you've read?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: "God, Time and Knowledge" by William Hasker.

Yes, I know of the book but I haven't read it. He basically denies the foreknowledge of God.

[skyblue888]

Just keep in mind that "To a great degree, theology, as studied and taught, is but a record of human speculation, serving only to darken counsel by words without knowledge." Ministry of Healing, p.442.

[Twilight]

Here are the situations where she says God would not use force or compulsion:

1. God does not use: to make men accept truth AA 241; 6BC 1112

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

2. to make men be good 5T 445

3. to make men do right MH 114

4. to oppress His creatures 2BC 999

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

5. external force, not employed in work of redemption DA 466

6. exercise of force, contrary to principles of God’s government in winning service DA 22

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

How did Jesus expel demons from demon-possessed people except by force?

A very important post.

[skyblue888]

Back to one of my previous posts as to what really happened in Egypt.

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." Romans 9:17

It is obvious that the dreadful outpouring of destruction on Egypt and the king's steady resistance of this pressure until the very end, is seen by most of us as being a contest of power between God and the king. It is seen as physical power versus physical power. We do not doubt that God will win for He has the greater power, and, in the end, after a protracted struggle, He does.

In viewing this as a contest between two great powers, we see the plagues as direct instruments wielded in the hand of God against the hapless Egyptians. We see the flies, the lice, the frogs, the hail, the murrain, the darkness, the boils, etc., as God's direct work. These things were sent upon the Egyptians, we believe, because God decided that this was the way they should be humbled. Then, having decided it, the Lord specifically gathered these forces and directed them against His enemies.

Nor is this all. Because the Lord desired to really show the nations of the world that He was not One to be trifled with, He raised up a Pharaoh who was unusually tough, defiant, powerful, and resilient. Such a king, because he would fight doggedly to the very end, provided God with the opportunity to manifest how great He was, whereas a weaker king would have given in before the Lord had the chance to demonstrate the full range of His judgmental powers.

The same situation exists in the world of human contest and combat. A world champion boxer will not enter the ring with a novice or amateur. The man whom he fights must also be of championship class so that the champion can demonstrate his skill, strength, and endurance. If his opponent was so inexperienced and weak as to go down with the first blow, then the champion would be deprived of the opportunity to display the full extent of his skill and power.

Let the reader pause here and carefully consider the picture of the Egyptian episode as presented above. Such a check will certify that this is the way in which most people view God's behaviour there.

Furthermore, when the subject is brought up for further study, the average person will be surprised that it should, for he feels that the whole matter is settled, and no other verdict is possible.

That response is an instant revelation that he has simply accepted this view of God as being correct. To him that is unquestionably, just what the Scriptures say.

There is no denying that when interpreted in the usually accepted way, that is what the Scriptures can be understood to say.

sky

"'And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee My power.' Not that God had given him an existence for this purpose; but His providence had overruled events to place him upon the throne at the very time appointed for Israel's deliverance." P.P.267,268.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Here are the situations where she says God would not use force or compulsion:

1. God does not use: to make men accept truth AA 241; 6BC 1112

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

2. to make men be good 5T 445

3. to make men do right MH 114

4. to oppress His creatures 2BC 999

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

5. external force, not employed in work of redemption DA 466

6. exercise of force, contrary to principles of God’s government in winning service DA 22

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

The Ellen White Writings Topical Index. 2002.

How did Jesus expel demons from demon-possessed people except by force?

A very important post.

I believe we all agree with the above list.

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

How did Jesus expel demons from demon-possessed people except by force?

This shows that it is inaccurate to say that God never uses force under any circumstances. If only people would keep these things in mind!

please gentlemen, do share just how Jesus "forced" demons to leave people?

[Twilight]

I must say that John317 has made a clear and convincing argument.

The only way that anyone could not accept this argument now, is if they refused to allow simple reason to speak to them.

Take of your blindfolds guys, you really are bumping into things that you should not be bumping into here...

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

By a command Teresa. He spoke the word only!

"It was by His word that Jesus healed disease and cast out demons; by His word He stilled the sea, and raised the dead; and the people bore witness that His word was with power." D.A.390.

God has a perfect right to restrain the evil agencies just as He has a perfect right to restrain the evil passions of the soul. But this restraining on the part of God is different from Him using His power to destroy. He does not directly use His power to destroy His enemies. We have been told in no uncertain terms that He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown with no control over the evil passions of the soul and without protection from the malice and malignity of Satan. And in the end Satan himself will reap that which he has sown. He will die at the hand of those whom he had deceived.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. We need not be afraid of repeating it, God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. This has always been the case and always will be for God does not change. Sin has changed angels and men and made them destroyers but sin has not changed God. God destroys no man. Satan is the destroyer.

sky

[Twilight]

By a command Teresa. He spoke the word only!

But how could Jesus command anyone against their will Sky if He never uses force under any circumstances?

Or are you saying that the demons wanted to leave the possessed people?

[skyblue888]

By a command Teresa. He spoke the word only!

"It was by His word that Jesus healed disease and cast out demons; by His word He stilled the sea, and raised the dead; and the people bore witness that His word was with power." D.A.390.

God has a perfect right to restrain the evil agencies just as He has a perfect right to restrain the evil passions of the soul. But this restraining on the part of God is different from Him using His power to destroy. He does not directly use His power to destroy His enemies. We have been told in no uncertain terms that He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown with no control over the evil passions of the soul and without protection from the malice and malignity of Satan. And in the end Satan himself will reap that which he has sown. He will die at the hand of those whom he had deceived.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. We need not be afraid of repeating it, God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. This has always been the case and always will be for God does not change. Sin has changed angels and men and made them destroyers but sin has not changed God. God destroys no man. Satan is the destroyer.

sky