"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Quote:

skyblue: John you quoted the words "with a strong hand shall he let them go" as though the "he" was referring to God when the "he" actually refers to Pharaoh.

Exo 6:1 "Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he (Pharaoh) let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land."

Yes, sky, I did say that. I researched the verse before using it.

I have since done additional research and am even more convinced that I was correct the first first. Below is the evidence for all to inspect.

You might want to do some research on this verse. Check out other translations and Bible commentaries. I don't know of any that say "the strong hand" is that of the Pharaoh. Look at all of the references to "strong hand," or "mighty hand," in Exodus 3: 19, 20; 6: 6; 15: 6, 12. It clearly signifies God's might, or force. You will see more evidence of this below. Please let me know what your conclusion is, based on the evidence.

Here are 12 translations as well as commentary by Hebrew scholar and translator, Robert Alter:

"And the Lord said to Moses, 'Now will you see what I shall do to Pharaoh, for through a strong hand will he send them off, and through a strong hand will he drive them from his land.'"

NOTE by translator on Exdous 6: 1--

"through a strong hand will he send them off and through a strong hand will he drive them from his land. The 'strong hand'-- that is, violent force-- becomes a refrain in the story, here repeated in quasipoetic parallelism. The phrase refers to the violent coercion that God will need to exert on Pharaoh. It is noteworthy that the semantically double-ended 'send' (to send away ceremoniously, to release, to banish) is here paired with the unambiguous 'drive them from his land.' In the event, God's strong hand will compel Pharaoh to expel the Hebrews precipitously, so that 'let my people go' is reinterpreted as something like 'banish my people.' The Exodus, in other words, extorted from a recalcitrant Egyptian monarch by an overpowering God, will prove to be a continuation of hostility, a fearful and angry expulsion of the slaves rather than a conciliatory act of liberation." (The Five Books Of Moses, Robert Alter, p. 338.)

2) "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'You shall soon see what I will do to Pharaoh: he shall let them go because of a greater might; indeed, because of a greater might he shall drive them from his land.'" Tanakh-- The Holy Scriptures, Jewish Publication Society Translation

3) "The Lord said to Moses: 'You will now see how I handle Pharaoh; for he must not merely be compelled to let them go; but he must drive them out of his land by force.'" Marginal note reads, "God forcing him." The Modern Language Bible, New Berkeley Version

4) "'Now you will see,' the LORD told Moses, 'what I will do to Pharaoh, because of My strong hand he will send them away, and because of My strong hand he will drive them out of his country.'" William Beck's The Holy Bible In the Language of Today.

NOTE: "the strong hand" is God's might or power. It is the use of force.

5) "'... Because of my mighty hand he will let them go; because of my mighty hand he will drive them out of his country.'" NIV

6) "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Now you are going to see what I will do to the king. I will force him to let my people go. In fact, I will force him to drive them out of his land.'" The Good News Bible

7)"'.... For he will be made to let them go because of My strong hand. By My strong hand, he will make them go out of his land.'" The Bible, The New Life Version

8) "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'You're now going to see what I will do to Pharaoh. I will force him to let my people go. In fact, he will beg them to leave the country.'" The Clear Word, Jack J. Blanco

9) "'... Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; compelled by a mighty power he will not only let them go, but will drive them out of his land.'" Smith & Goodspeed, The Complete Bible

10) "'... Now you shall see what I will do to the Pharaoh; he will be forced to let them go; he will be forced to put them out of his country.'" James Moffatt, The Bible, A New Translation

11) "'... Now you will see what I shall do to Pharaoh: he will be compelled to let them go, he will be forced to drive them from his country.'" Revised English Bible

12) "'... Now you will see what I will do to the king of Egypt. I will use my great power against him, and he will let my people go. Because of my power, he will force them out of his country.'" The New Century Version

I could have supplied over 40 more such translations, but the above will, I presume, suffice. They all make the point that the "the mighty hand" is that of God, and not the Pharoah's. Notice the obvious above, that "the mighty hand" of God refers to the use of force against Pharaoh in order to free the children of Israel. This is obvious from the narrative as well as the language used, such as in Exodus 6: 1.

[pnattmbtc]

What I'm wondering about is why, when I asked you if you read read much in systematic theology, you said that you are aware of only two systematic theologies on this point, one being Calvinism...

[teresaq]

Quote:

skyblue: John you quoted the words "with a strong hand shall he let them go" as though the "he" was referring to God when the "he" actually refers to Pharaoh.

Exo 6:1 "Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he (Pharaoh) let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land."

Yes, sky, I did say that. I researched the verse before using it.

I have since done additional research and am even more convinced that I was correct the first first. Below is the evidence for all to inspect.

Please let me know what your conclusion is, based on the evidence.

Here are 12 translations

2) Tanakh-- The Holy Scriptures, Jewish Publication Society Translation

3) The Modern Language Bible, New Berkeley Version

4)William Beck's The Holy Bible In the Language of Today.

5) NIV

6)The Good News Bible

7) The Bible, The New Life Version

8) The Clear Word, Jack J. Blanco

9) "'... Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; compelled by a mighty power he will not only let them go, but will drive them out of his land.'" Smith & Goodspeed, The Complete Bible

10) James Moffatt, The Bible, A New Translation

11) Revised English Bible

12) The New Century Version

I could have supplied over 40 more such translations, but the above will, I presume, suffice. They all make the point that the "the mighty hand" is that of God, and not the Pharoah's.

what are we left with when we exclude paraphrases?

only 9) is a possibility.

rv: Exo 6:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for by a strong hand shall he let them go, and by a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land.

asv: Exo 6:1 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for by a strong hand shall he let them go, and by a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land.

ylt: Exo 6:1 And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Now dost thou see that which I do to Pharaoh, for with a strong hand he doth send them away, yea, with a strong hand he doth cast them out of his land.'

[teresaq]

we cans sit here and argue back and forth, or we can look at the scriptures where it is recorded, which has been done, and ignored.

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

By a command Teresa. He spoke the word only!

But how could Jesus command anyone against their will Sky if He never uses force under any circumstances?

Or are you saying that the demons wanted to leave the possessed people?

[Robert]

It really doesn't matter to me how He gets it accomplished as long as it gets done and He's able to remake the earth as it was before sin entered.

So if God sins to get it done, that's fine? If God acts worse than Hitler to get it done, that's fine too? Wow!

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc:

God miraculously parted the Red Sea. The Egyptians arrogantly followed behind the Israelites, with the intention of killing them. God was under no moral obligation to miraculously part the Red Sea so the Egyptians could kill the Israelites. God ceased parting the Red Sea, and it returned to its natural state.

God didn't pick up the Red Sea and hurl it at the Egyptians. He simply ceased the miracle He was performing.

What do you think?

You almost got it. If you look at Exodus 14 carefully, and at what Ellen White says,you will see that angels of God "took off the wheels of the chariots," and then when the Egyptians decided to retreat back to the shore, God commanded Moses to stretch out his staff, and that's when God caused the water to sweep over the Egyptians. Any child can see that it was not coincidental that the water went back when it did.

This is a clear example of God destroying wicked people. As you say, the Egyptians were attempting to kill the people of God or return them to slavery. God wasn't going to allow either of those things to happen. So God fought for Israel and rescued them from the hand of their enemy. God rightly deserves our praise. See the song of praise that the Israelites sang afterwards in Ex. 15.

[Robert]

The War is real, and so is the victory.

[Robert]

Ellen White says,... that angels of God "took off the wheels of the chariots," and then when the Egyptians decided to retreat back to the shore

Heck, why not burn them for many days? Then resurrect them, kill'm again, beat the [censored] out of them, kill'm again, and on and on....I mean lets have more suffering here.

Someone took Ellen's wheels off...she slipped and hit her head....I don't buy her explanation and it goes far beyond what the Bibles states....

You guys make a god of Ellen. You worship the woman. You talk more of her than Jesus Christ. You belong to a cult, John...a big fat cult!....A legalistic cult at that....

[Robert]

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

Context? You can't deal with context, John. If you did you would have to admit that either EGW is trying to bring the legalists out in the open or she herself is teaching heresy.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: It really doesn't matter to me how He gets it accomplished as long as it gets done and He's able to remake the earth as it was before sin entered.

Quote:

So if God sins to get it done, that's fine? If God acts worse than Hitler to get it done, that's fine too? Wow!

Now we're getting down the essence of the problem.

Do you think the Bible's and Ellen White's description of how God will destroy the wicked in fire is a "sin" or "wrong"? Does Rev. 14: 11 or 20: 9 make God look worse than Hitler? How about GC 673?

You appear to be unwilling to let God be God and decide how to punish the wicked. Since when do the criminals decide how God the Judge will judge and punish the criminals?

As Ellen White wrote, "God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man." Read all of 12 MR 207-209.

"IT IS IN MERCY TO THE UNIVERSE THAT GOD WILL FINALLY DESTROY THE REJECTERS OF HIS GRACE." gc 543.

"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?" 10 MR 265

[Robert]

the Egyptians were attempting to kill the people of God or return them to slavery. God wasn't going to allow either of those things to happen.

Where was God during the Holocaust? God let the Nazis kill over a million Jews....

[John317]

Quote:

John317:The War is real, and so is the victory.

Quote:

Robert: There ain't no frigging war, John...only in your head.

There is an extremely serious war going on right now between Christ and Satan, and they are fighting over your mind and soul. There is a real battle over each person on the planet.

The hymn "Onward Christian Soldiers" is a reminder that we're involved in a great war. Paul's writings are full of warfare imagery. Jesus Christ Himself is the Captain of the Lord's Army. God's angels are trained armies, trained in heaven for war, where they saw action against the enemy. The enemy is now on the earth where the war has been transferred. Ellen White calls God's angels "trained armies of heaven."

Read the description of Jesus Christ when He comes the second time:

"Behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and MAKE WAR." Rev. 19: 11

Whether you realize it or not, there's a real war on, Robert. Wake up before it's too late.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

Ellen White says,... that angels of God "took off the wheels of the chariots," and then when the Egyptians decided to retreat back to the shore

Heck, why not burn them for many days? Then resurrect them, kill'm again, beat the [censored] out of them, kill'm again, and on and on....I mean lets have more suffering here.

Someone took Ellen's wheels off...she slipped and hit her head....I don't buy her explanation and it goes far beyond what the Bibles states....

You guys make a god of Ellen. You worship the woman. You talk more of her than Jesus Christ. You belong to a cult, John...a big fat cult!....A legalistic cult at that....

Robert, can't you see what some of us can't see? what Ellen said about the wheels is just fine. It is the same language all the time. Can't you see that? nothing wrong with Ellen saying that anymore than God saying I will harden his heart.

get it?

sky

*There were angels watching over these Egyptian soldiers. God loved them just as much as He loved the Israelites. But when they ventured to pursue the Israelites through the Red Sea which God had opened for His professed people, they filled up their cup of iniquity and God's angels withdrew and the evil angels took off the wheels of their chariots and thus they had no way to escape from the waves when they returned. The Lord had no choice but to allow Satan and his angels to do their work of destruction. And the language is that the angels of God took the wheels off their chariots!

[Robert]

Do you think the Bible's and Ellen White's description of how God will destroy the wicked in fire is a "sin" or "wrong"?

[Robert]

get it?

sky

Yes, but I'm tired of having folks like Johnny cramming Ellen down my throat. I got rid of her little red books many years ago. Since then I quit being a devil....Ask my wife how I use to be when I made EGW the measuring stick....

[teresaq]

this response is not answering the point robert brought up. what we think and feel about it, john, is not addressing the point.

Quote:

John317: God will stop sin at its source, but only after the great controversy is completely finished and everyone has made up his mind to either follow God or Satan.

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ROBERT: Well, it seems at the flood everyone had decided, accept 8 folks, so that would have been a great time to stop sin at its source.

It seems to me that your problem is that you want to tell God how and when to punish the wicked. Let God be God. He is not only a Father but also the Judge and the One who will decide when and how to destroy Satan and his wicked followers. It really doesn't matter to me how He gets it accomplished as long as it gets done and He's able to remake the earth as it was before sin entered.

why didnt the flood "eliminate" sin then and there?

[Robert]

Whether you realize it or not, there's a real war on, Robert. Wake up before it's too late.

Oh shut up the scare c r a p....I'm Tired of this...."The sky is falling the sky is falling"...what you want is for me to give you my mind so that you can create a good little legalist who presents God as a monster....No, keep your funky religion...I reject it!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

get it?

sky

Yes, but I'm tired of having folks like Johnny cramming Ellen down my throat. I got rid of her little red books many years ago. Since then I quit being a devil....Ask my wife how I use to be when I made EGW the measuring stick....

i think it is more about how we read ellen white, than what she actually says.

remember, please, the bible also forces us to search deeper to see if the superficial meaning is really what is going on. it is the same with ellen white.

[Robert]

why didnt the flood "eliminate" sin then and there?

Because there were sinners on the boat....

Yes, they didn't reject God, but iniquity was still alive and well. Where you have "self" you have sin....And so the problem wasn't solved.

[Robert]

"Behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and MAKE WAR." Rev. 19: 11

Whether you realize it or not, there's a real war on, Robert. Wake up before it's too late.

two things I've noticed about traditional, historic SDA.

1] they love revelation because they can twist it to scare the [censored] out of the unsuspecting...

2] they love to make EGW the measuring stick.

3] they are legalists, wolves in sheep's clothing, so that they appear as an angel of light, but all the time they wish to trap you in their web (that last one was a freebie)

[John317]

Quote:

John317:...the Egyptians were attempting to kill the people of God or return them to slavery. God wasn't going to allow either of those things to happen.

Quote:

ROBERT: Where was God during the Holocaust? God let the Nazis kill over a million Jews....

Over a million Jews? More like between 7 and 10 million, plus all the many millions of non-Jews.

[Robert]

Over a million Jews? More like between 7 and 10 million, plus all the many millions of non-Jews.

yes, but you didn't answer the question.....Where was God's wrath....Your God should have set them all on fire....Killed them all....

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you think the Bible's and Ellen White's description of how God will destroy the wicked in fire is a "sin" or "wrong"?

Again, let me give you how God operates:

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

God's anger is not human, sinful anger. The Bible talks of God as being jealous, but again not in the human realm.

When God releases those who persist on rejecting Him it looks like God is angry. As Is 53:6 says, "we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted." So God's anger looks like the worst of human anger, but it isn't. God releases...He abandons the sinner to his own choices. It's called reaping and sowing....

Quote:

Does Rev. 14: 11 or 20: 9 make God look worse than Hitler? How about GC 673?

Revelation is highly symbolic book....Ellen White is not even on the table....She is not an authority.

Quote:

You appear to be unwilling to let God be God and decide how to punish the wicked.

No, you appear to be unwilling to let God be God and decide how to punish the wicked. The wicked punish themselves for they reject the author of life. When they do, what happens?

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

That's it Robert and I can assure you that if Ellen was alive today she would agree with what you have just posted.

sky

[skyblue888]

"Behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and MAKE WAR." Rev. 19: 11

Whether you realize it or not, there's a real war on, Robert. Wake up before it's too late.

_______________________________________________

Yes the war is real but John this passage of Scripture clearly says that He wars "in righteousness". What are God's weapons of war? carnal weapons? what did Ellen say were the means to be used by God in this war against Satan, which is what pnatt keeps repeating and repeating?

sky

[Robert]

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

If Christ kingdom were of this world (based on its principles) then Jesus would have kicked some major booty. Instead, He tells Peter, "Put your sword back in its place," ..."for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

So, John...Jesus is all about war? I don't think so...