"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[skyblue888]

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

If Christ kingdom were of this world (based on its principles) then Jesus would have kicked some major booty. Instead, He tells Peter, "Put your sword back in its place," ..."for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Amen! Amen! and Amen!

Well said.

If this does not convince us, what will?

sky

*oh, there is a war to be sure but God wars in righteousness. Truth and love are the means He uses to defeat the enemy. But that does not mean that God cannot restrain the enemy within the bonds of righteousness. But in the end it will be truth and love that will win the war and the enemy will be exposed for who he really is. For the holy angels and the inhabitants of the unfallen world, this war ended at the cross but it is far from being over as far as the inhabitants of this world are concerned but God will at last win when His army is fully trained to war in righteousness as He himself does.

[Robert]

i think it is more about how we read ellen white, than what she actually says.

remember, please, the bible also forces us to search deeper to see if the superficial meaning is really what is going on. it is the same with ellen white.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there are many statements from Ellen I like, I just don't make her the final word....Never!

[John317]

Quote:

skyblue888: .... can't you see what some of us can't see? what Ellen said about the wheels is just fine. It is the same language all the time. Can't you see that? nothing wrong with Ellen saying that anymore than God saying I will harden his heart.

get it?

sky

*There were angels watching over these Egyptian soldiers. God loved them just as much as He loved the Israelites. But when they ventured to pursue the Israelites through the Red Sea which God had opened for His professed people, they filled up their cup of iniquity and God's angels withdrew and the evil angels took off the wheels of their chariots and thus they had no way to escape from the waves when they returned. The Lord had no choice but to allow Satan and his angels to do their work of destruction. And the language is that the angels of God took the wheels off their chariots!

And in this way, you make Ellen White say something she didn't say or mean. This is what's dangerous about the teaching that God has never destroyed anyone and will never destroy anyone. It requires the twisting of the Scriptures from what it plainly says to something entirely different.

What you say, sky, doesn't make sense. What you are saying would mean that when Moses held out his staff, the evil angels performed miracles, and then the Israelites gave all praise to God for all the evil things the wicked angels did. It would mean the enemies of God and God's angels were working hand in glove to free Israel from Egypt. There's no reason to think that Satan and his demons wanted to help Israel escape from the Egyptians. Ellen White and the Bible show that Satan was fighting against God's plan to free Israel. Satan tried to make it look like his magicians could duplicate the miracles of God, and that was for the purpose of fighting against God's plans. Why then would Satan have done things to cause the Egyptians to all perish in the waters?

It would be like God has some attack dogs nearby who do His evil work for Him whenever He needs it done, so that God doesn't get His hands dirty. How does it make God look any better if He does that? But on top of that, Ellen White says clearly that it was the angels of God who took off the wheels. She never says "angels of God" when she means "evil angels."

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i think it is more about how we read ellen white, than what she actually says.

remember, please, the bible also forces us to search deeper to see if the superficial meaning is really what is going on. it is the same with ellen white.

__________________________________________

Oh, don't get me wrong, there are many statements from Ellen I like, I just don't make her the final word....Never!

__________________________________________

Right on teresa.

Robert, I don't make her the final word either. The Testimonies were never given for that purpose. On the contrary they were sent to magnify the Word and to make it honorable.

sky

[Robert]

Ellen White says clearly that it was the angels of God who took off the wheels.

But the Bible does not say this....

[skyblue888]

Yes she says that the angels took off the wheels but that simply means that they could no longer protect the Egyptian soldiers and the evil angels were free to take the wheels off their charriots. This is how the angels of God are said to have taken the wheels off their chariots.

Satan could no longer use the Egyptian armies against the Israelites. He had no more use for them and here was an opportunity to exterminate them all. Since God's protection was removed from them, he summoned his angels to take the wheels off their chariots so that there would remain no escape from the returning waves.

sky

[Robert]

This is what's dangerous about the teaching that God has never destroyed anyone and will never destroy anyone.

God can't love me more than Himself (hence God = agape) and do a turnaround and keep me alive in fire for many days while I cry to die....I will never reconcile the two because the day I do I am a sick screwed up individual. I'll need to be put in the funny farm....

Rob

[skyblue888]

It is the same when the Bible says that God slew Saul. God did not personally or directly slay him any more than the holy angels personally took the wheels off their charriots. They did not directly do that any more than God directly harden Pharaoh's heart.

sky

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and MAKE WAR." Rev. 19: 11

Whether you realize it or not, there's a real war on, Robert. Wake up before it's too late.

Quote:

sky: Yes the war is real but John this passage of Scripture clearly says that He wars "in righteousness". What are God's weapons of war? carnal weapons? what did Ellen say were the means to be used by God in this war against Satan, which is what pnatt keeps repeating and repeating?

The point is that there is a real war going on in the world between Christ and Satan, and the battle is over individual minds and hearts. The Bible is full of war imagery. God is viewed as a man of war and Christ is viewed as a captain of the Lord's armies. Etc. etc.

[Robert]

It is the same when the Bible says that God slew Saul. sky

Devil's advocate:

Now, now Sky, we are in a war and God became jealous because Saul went to a witch. Then He became very angry and made Saul kill himself. But that's okay with me, God can do what He wants as long as I can be His sidekick.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and MAKE WAR." Rev. 19: 11

Whether you realize it or not, there's a real war on, Robert. Wake up before it's too late.

Quote:

sky: Yes the war is real but John this passage of Scripture clearly says that He wars "in righteousness". What are God's weapons of war? carnal weapons? what did Ellen say were the means to be used by God in this war against Satan, which is what pnatt keeps repeating and repeating?

The point is that there is a real war going on in the world between Christ and Satan, and the battle is over individual minds and hearts. The Bible is full of war imagery. God is viewed as a man of war and Christ is viewed as a captain of the Lord's armies. Etc. etc.

Exactly! You just said it yourself! The Bible is full of "imagery". Certainly God is viewed as a man of war and Christ as the Captain of the Lord's armies. Yes, yes, yes. But He wars in righteousness! What are the weapons of God and Christ in this war John?

Truth and love.

sky

[John317]

Quote:

John317Ellen White says clearly that it was the angels of God who took off the wheels.

Quote:

ROBERT: But the Bible does not say this....

Yes, it does. It says God took off the wheels. Read Ex. 14: 25. It says there that God took off the chariot wheels. That is the literal reading. "The Lord looked.... and [He] took off their chariot wheels..." Ellen White says it was God's angels who did it. It's in perfect agreement. God uses His angels to accomplish His purposes.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

It is the same when the Bible says that God slew Saul. sky

Devil's advocate:

Now, now Sky, we are in a war and God became jealous because Saul went to a witch. Then He became very angry and made Saul kill himself. But that's okay with me, God can do what He wants as long as I can be His sidekick.

I dont understand what you are saying here. God was left with no choice but to leave Saul to himself to reap that which he had sown. If he had not killed himself the Philistines would have taken care of him. But the language is that "God slew Saul."

Please make yourself more clear on that one.

thank you

sky

[Gail]

You know this thread is 212 pages long now?

Is the discussion any further ahead than when it started?

As long as it is peaceable, keep it up!

[Robert]

You know this thread is 212 pages long now?

Is the discussion any further ahead than when it started?

As long as it is peaceable, keep it up!

Well, no one has changed her/his mind. John has some good points, but the others better points....It's very controversial subject....

[skyblue888]

Quote:

John317Ellen White says clearly that it was the angels of God who took off the wheels.

Quote:

ROBERT: But the Bible does not say this....

Yes, it does. It says God took off the wheels. Read Ex. 14: 25. It says there that God took off the chariot wheels. That is the literal reading. "The Lord looked.... and [He] took off their chariot wheels..." Ellen White says it was God's angels who did it. It's in perfect agreement. God uses His angels to accomplish His purposes.

Yes the Bible says that. "He (God) took off their chariot wheels, so that they drove them with difficulty." Exodus14:25.

And the Egyptians were certain that it was the Lord who had directly taken off their wheels just as many of us are sure of that today. But this is the same language again which is consistent in the Bible. The Lord did this and the Lord did that. But we know that that does not mean that the Lord Himself or His holy angels directly did that. No. Just as God and His holy angels were forced to leave Saul to himself to reap that which He had sown, God and His angels had no choice but to leave the Egyptian armies to themselves to reap that which they had down, unbelief. And the evil angels were free to do with them as they pleased and they knew that by taking the wheels off their chariots that they would have no way of escaping the returning waves and that they would all be drowned. Remember God wars in righteousness. God had no other choice but to give them up to Satan and his angels and yet, once again, the language of the Bible is that God took the wheels off their chariots.

sky

[Robert]

God uses His angels to accomplish His purposes.

Did they jack up the chariots? Or did they just lift them up and then take off the wheels....

You make things up John.....

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: Now, now Sky, we are in a war and God became jealous because Saul went to a witch. Then He became very angry and made Saul kill himself. But that's okay with me, God can do what He wants as long as I can be His sidekick.

God didn't make Saul commit suicide. God accomplishes His will without forcing the will and choices of human beings. Saul did what he freely chose to do under those circumstances. Similarly Pharoah freely chose to send his army into the waters of the Red Sea. God didn't make those men go into the water, but God did choose to cause the water to drown them. He commanded Moses to put forth his staff and then God made the water go back over the Egytpians and destroy them. They destroyed themselves by their choices, but it was God who put an end to their lives in the waters. So the wicked at the end will have destroyed themselves by their choices, and God will then bring an end to their lives by fire that falls from heaven and consumes them.

[Robert]

Devil's advocate

[Robert]

God didn't make Saul commit suicide. God accomplishes His will without forcing the will and choices of human beings.

So God's will is to kill? No!

[skyblue888]

Quote:

Robert: Now, now Sky, we are in a war and God became jealous because Saul went to a witch. Then He became very angry and made Saul kill himself. But that's okay with me, God can do what He wants as long as I can be His sidekick.

God didn't make Saul commit suicide. God accomplishes His will without forcing the will and choices of human beings. Saul did what he freely chose to do under those circumstances. Similarly Pharoah freely chose to send his army into the waters of the Red Sea. God didn't make those men go into the water, but God did choose to cause the water to drown them. He commanded Moses to put forth his staff and then God made the water go back over the Egytpians and destroy them. They destroyed themselves by their choices, but it was God who put an end to their lives in the waters. So the wicked at the end will have destroyed themselves by their choices, and God will then bring an end to their lives by fire that falls from heaven and consumes them.

No it was not God who put an end to their lives. It was their presumption John. They put themselves where Satan wanted them and once there they had filled up their cup of iniquity. Satan kept them there by being allowed to take the wheels off their chariots. But God took the blame for that since He could no longer protect them. Hence the language of the Bible which is always consistent. Again the Lord says, I did it.

sky

[Robert]

My anger will be aroused, and I [God] will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless

[John317]

This is like your questions about whether the angels in heaven drew blood during the war there, etc.

The Bible text is that "He took off the wheels of the chariots." Ellen White said, "Angels of God went through their host and removed their chariot wheels." 1 SP 209 "Take off" is the same as "remove." The point is that the wheels of the chariots were useless.

I'm not suprised that you would reject these things. They clearly don't fit your view.

[Robert]

The Bible text is that "He took off the wheels of the chariots."

And He took off their chariot wheels, so that they drove them with difficulty

You can't drive a chariot without wheels. So it probably means the wheels got stuck in the mud....

Again, God takes the blame for their demise....

[skyblue888]

God will then bring an end to their lives by fire that falls from heaven and consumes them.

John317.

_____________________________________________

Again the language of the Bible is consistent. Rev.19:9. But we know now that this fire will not come directly out from God. It is said to be coming from God out of heaven but only in the sense that Satan and his angels and all the unsaved of all ages will be left to themselves. What is lilely to happen if the wild beasts of the forest are left together in the same room? They will fight to the death. Right? Is it nesssary to ask what will happen when all the unsaved of all ages shall be left in the same room with Satan and his agents, especially after the unsaved of all ages realize that the ones to be blamed for their being lost eternally are in their midst?

I pray and hope that none of us will be in the midst of this battle for it will be indescribable. If is from the misdt of this gigantic battle that fire will come down upon them, by the use of their own weapons. And again God will take the blame by saying that He did it, that He destroyed them all by fire just as He said that He destroyed the antediluvians by a flood or that He slew Saul or that He sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth.

sky