Guest Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 Quote: If I believe that God is like that I might follow through, but lucky for you I don't see things like that.... I think in reality it is lucky for you, that you don't think like that. God no longer calls for the killing of heretics. Which is also lucky for you. Quote
Robert Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 Quote: If I believe that God is like that I might follow through, but lucky for you I don't see things like that.... I think in reality it is lucky for you, that you don't think like that. God no longer calls for the killing of heretics. Which is also lucky for you. Wow, the testosterone is really doing it's thing....Lucky for you I've used most of mine up.... You said, "God no longer calls for the killing of heretics". Why? Has God changed? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 6, 2010 Moderators Posted March 6, 2010 Quote: Robert: Well, what John is doing is confusing this knowledge. His view does not present a God of love, but rather a stern taskmaster who is ever ready to torture you in the fires of hell. What I'm doing is showing what the Bible teaches: that God has indeed destroyed in the past and that He will destroy the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. But I do not believe God is a stern task master or that He will "torture anyone." There will be great suffering and agony, though, just as Christ Himself said there would be. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 What I'm doing is showing what the Bible teaches: that God has indeed destroyed in the past and that He will destroy the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. Quote
Robert Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 what if I thought God told me to utterly destroy your family -- men, women and children? If I believe that God is like that I might follow through.... Yes? Cat got your tongue? Quote
Robert Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 What I'm doing is showing what the Bible teaches: that God has indeed destroyed in the past and that He will destroy the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. No, what you are doing is giving your opinion. It is said that God told David to number Israel, but we find out it was Satan. How do we not know that when God said kill all men, women and children it wasn't Satan? Remember, from the start Israel wanted a visible king to be like the other kingdoms. They didn't want God as their king, so perhaps much of the OT demands to destroy isn't from God at all? Quote
Guest Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 Wow, the testosterone is really doing it's thing....Lucky for you I've used most of mine up.... You said, "God no longer calls for the killing of heretics". Why? Has God changed? Actually I don't think God ever did call for the killing of heretics. Why are you lacking testosterone Robert, are you getting old? Quote
Robert Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 I don't think God ever did call for the killing of heretics. Quote
Robert Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 Remember, from the start Israel wanted a visible king to be like the other kingdoms. They didn't want God as their king, so perhaps much of the OT demands to destroy isn't from God at all? Although God never intended Israel to have a visible king, He did not reject them when they claimed one. And their motive for this perfidy? "That we may be like all the nations" (1 Samuel 8:19). God warned them of the results of their choice, but He did not reject them for it. Did they, early on, desire to wage war "like" the Egyptians? But in the case of their choosing a king, God expressed His disapproval. Do we have a Biblical example where humans defied God's ideal will without His expressing disapproval and also without rejecting them for it? Yes. In their practice of slavery and polygamy, which most Christians now agree were not in God's original plan. Polygamy was so common among God's people in the Old Testament, examples need not be cited. Again, they thought to be "like" the surrounding nations, even though they knew God's perfect will for monogamous marriage had been beautifully expressed in the beginning (Genesis 2:20-24). But they chose to focus on their visible neighbors rather than on the invisible God, and beholding changed them into the same image (2 Corinthians 3:18). But nowhere do we find God railing against polygamy, although Christians today, with few exceptions, see the wrong of it. [Taken from "light on the dark side of God] Quote
Guest Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 Quote: Why are you lacking testosterone Robert, are you getting old? No, I've used it up in dealing with folks who are all talk and no action.... How does dealing with people who are all talk and no action, use up testosterone? Quote
Robert Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 How does dealing with people who are all talk and no action, use up testosterone? Because one gets all worked up for nothing....The other side does one thing well, expand and contract a lot of air.... Quote
Robert Posted March 6, 2010 Posted March 6, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 What I'm doing is showing what the Bible teaches: that God has indeed destroyed in the past and that He will destroy the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. No, what you are doing is giving your opinion. It is said that God told David to number Israel, but we find out it was Satan. How do we not know that when God said kill all men, women and children it wasn't Satan? Yes, John? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 7, 2010 Moderators Posted March 7, 2010 Quote: John317What I'm doing is showing what the Bible teaches: that God has indeed destroyed in the past and that He will destroy the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. Quote: ROBERT: No, what you are doing is giving your opinion. It is said that God told David to number Israel, but we find out it was Satan. How do we not know that when God said kill all men, women and children it wasn't Satan? Is this the best argument you have against the Bible teaching that Satan was forced out of heaven; that God destroyed people in the past, and that He will destroy them again after the 1000 years? All you are doing is rejecting the clear statements of the Bible and Ellen White in order to accept the teachings in a book by an uninspired woman. What you have to decide is whether the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Was Moses inspired of God to write the first five books of the Bible, or are they false? Read Deut. 20 and 25: 17-19. Moses gives commands to the people in the name of God. Was Moses actually giving people messages from the devil? Read Joshua 10: 12-15. The word of God says that God caused the earth to stop going around the sun and that God caused the moon to stand still-- all in order for Israel to take vengeance upon their foes. Who did that? Did the Devil? Or do you deny that it even happened? Is that where your theology has taken you-- to deny the Bible and to say parts of it come from the devil, simply because you don't like what it says? The writer of the book of Joshua says straightforwardly that it was God who told Joshua to annihilate the people of Palestine at that time. See Joshua 11: 16-20. The thing to do is not reject the Bible or say that it is wrong but to make an effort to understand why God would destroy the wicked people living in Palestine at the time of the Exodus. I believe God was right to do what the Bible says He did, and I believe that the God of love will be right to destroy the wicked at the end of time, just like the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy says He will do. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Is this the best argument you have against the Bible teaching that Satan was forced out of heaven; that God destroyed people in the past, and that He will destroy them again after the 1000 years? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 7, 2010 Moderators Posted March 7, 2010 Quote: JOHN3:17: Was Moses inspired of God to write the first five books of the Bible, or are they false? Quote: ROBERT: They are not false, they are just not written as you think they are....The Bible is deep, if not then there wouldn't be so much diversity. Then explain the following verses with the view that you have that "they are not written" as I think they are. How then are they "written"? Show me how you reason and your conclusion of what these verses "mean." Read Deut. 20 and 25: 17-19. Moses gives commands to the people in the name of God. Was Moses actually giving people messages from the devil? Read Joshua 10: 12-15. The word of God says that God caused the earth to stop going around the sun and that God caused the moon to stand still-- all in order for Israel to take vengeance upon their foes. Who did that? Did the Devil? The writer of the book of Joshua says straightforwardly that it was God who told Joshua to annihilate the people of Palestine at that time. See Joshua 11: 16-20. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 7, 2010 Moderators Posted March 7, 2010 Quote: John317: Is this the best argument you have against the Bible teaching that Satan was forced out of heaven; that God destroyed people in the past, and that He will destroy them again after the 1000 years? Quote: ROBERT: The context is that God says He had David number Israel, and God also states Satan numbered Israel. Which is true? The Bible itself explains it, does it not? What does the Bible say about that incident? Read both accounts in 2 Sam. 24: 1 and 1 Chron. 21: 1. Both accounts are true. God used Satan's malice as His means of carrying out His will. The Lord allowed Satan to incite David. James 1: 13 says that God does not tempt any man to sin, but God does allow Satan to tempt people. God is frequently described in Scripture as doing what He merely permits to be done. God withdrew His supporting grace from David and permitted Satan to tempt him. See Is. 7: 17 as another example of where God is said to do that which He permits. This principle is well established and understood, but it doesn't account for all that the Bible says. For instance, apply that principle to what the Scripture says in Joshua 10: 12-14, where it says that God caused the Sun to stop and the moon to stand still. This was in answer to Joshua's prayer to God, and it says that it was answered by God so that Israel could take vengeance on their enemies. How do you explain that? The principle also does not account for the expulsion, or driving out, of Satan and the evil angels from heaven. We know that God banished Satan from heaven and that Satan refused to leave and put up a fight in order to stay. Remember that Ellen White herself wrote that sometimes the destruction comes from angels of God when God commands, and other times destruction comes from evil angels when God permits. So we know that destruction comes both directly from God and directly from Satan. There are two sources of destructive power. This is a very important principle. Are you unaware of this or do you simply reject it? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 7, 2010 Moderators Posted March 7, 2010 Stay to the context...I mean it...stay to the context....Do not drift or I will ignore you! Speaking as moderator: You need to be patient with posters and not think that you can control when they must write something or when they must reply to a post of yours. Some people can't sit at the computer and write all the time but must take breaks for the sake of health or for their families. The fact that people don't respond immediately doesn't mean they will not respond or can't respond. If you want to ignore someone, that is fine, but please have patience with posters as you expect them to have patience with you. Remember the Golden Rule, or the law of Christ. Treat others as you want to be treated. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 7, 2010 Moderators Posted March 7, 2010 Quote: John317: What I'm doing is showing what the Bible teaches: that God has indeed destroyed in the past and that He will destroy the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. Quote: ROBERT: No, what you are doing is giving your opinion. It is said that God told David to number Israel, but we find out it was Satan. How do we not know that when God said kill all men, women and children it wasn't Satan? Remember, from the start Israel wanted a visible king to be like the other kingdoms. They didn't want God as their king, so perhaps much of the OT demands to destroy isn't from God at all? How would that explain what Moses told the children of Israel or what's in the book of Joshua, which occurred while Israel was a theocracy and before they demanded a king? Read Deut. 20 and 25: 17-19. Moses gives commands to the people in the name of God. Was Moses actually giving people messages from the devil? Read Joshua 10: 12-15. The word of God says that God caused the earth to stop going around the sun and that God caused the moon to stand still-- all in order for Israel to take vengeance upon their foes. Who did that? Did the Devil? The writer of the book of Joshua says straightforwardly that it was God who told Joshua to annihilate the people of Palestine at that time. See Joshua 11: 16-20. Was the Inspired writer under an illusion? Was he merely writing human opinion here? If so, is it possible that much, if not most, of the Bible is merely human opinion? Many people believe Paul also merely wrote his opinions. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 God used Satan's malice as His means of carrying out His will. The Lord allowed Satan to incite David. Where do you get this junk? So God used Satan to get David to sin. Wow, what a righteous God...one who gets folks to sin and then punishes them. John, you have lost it! 1 Chron 21:7 This command was also evil in the sight of God [i.e, to number Israel]; so he punished Israel. 8 Then David said to God, "I have sinned greatly by doing this [numbering Israel]. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing." 9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' John, if God tempts folks to sin and then punishes them, then I reject God for He is a monster. But then again I don't believe in the God you believe in. No one in their right mind would.... Quote
Robert Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 You need to be patient with posters and not think that you can control when they must write something or when they must reply to a post of yours. I am telling you that I will not answer your questions until you have answer my previous question. Understand? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 7, 2010 Moderators Posted March 7, 2010 Quote: John317: Is this the best argument you have against the Bible teaching that Satan was forced out of heaven; that God destroyed people in the past, and that He will destroy them again after the 1000 years? Quote: ROBERT: ...The Bible is deep, if not then there wouldn't be so much diversity. Deep, yes, but does "deep" mean that the Bible means the opposite of what it says? Much of the diversity is not due to the Bible but due to people. People have different motivations and many people don't even want to know the truth. They often love error. The Bible says this somewhere, doesn't it? Lawyers argue the laws, not because the law is not clear but because they have to find ways of defending the indefensible. If you give a story or poem to a class of 25 students, you will often get lots of conflicting opinions about what they are reading. That's because people come to a piece of writing with different experiences and different understanding of language as well as different preconceptions. So there are lots of reasons for the many different views of the Bible, which have nothing to do with the Bible itself. Even when the Bible's meaning is clear, there will be different views of what it "really" means. We can't blame the Bible for this. Ellen White says that we need the Holy Spirit in order to correctly understand the Bible-- the same Holy Spirit that inspired it to be written in the first place. I believe her. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 So, in your mind, God got Satan to tempt David to number Israel. It was His will for David to sin. When He does God does the following: "So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead." Sick! David sins and others pay for his sin. So what happened to "the soul who sins will die"? Out the window, huh? There are many ethical problems found in the OT. Why did God have its writers write this way? Maybe to get us to study and learn who God really is....Not a God of war...not one who uses the Devil to tempt others...not one who kills...who destroys...but One who loves sinners - His enemies - more than Himself. God sent Christ to show us how the Father really is...and He is not like the OT presents Him. Therefore we must think outside the box of tradition when reading the OT~! Quote
pnattmbtc Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Quote: pnattmbtc:This is how I read this. Not that evil angels took the wheels off their chariots, but they got stuck in the mud. That makes perfect sense. It makes more sense then that they could ride chariots in the mud with no problem. Where does either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say that evil angels helped God and Moses destroy the Egyptians in the Red Sea? You completely violate the meaning and sigificance of the Ellen White statement: "Angels of God went through their host and removed their chariot wheels." 1 SP 209 I didn't say anything about evil angels. I think the evil angels were involved in encouraging the Egyptians to go after the Israelites, but I don't think they were involved in the deaths of Egyptians in the Red Sea other than this. I think she's speaking here in a similar manner to in the destruction of Jerusalem, where she says the angels of God saw to it that not stone was left on the temple, to fulfill Scripture. Of course, the angels themselves had nothing directly to do with this, as we know that the Romans under Titus did it, but the angels permitted it to happen, so, as Scripture does, God is presented as doing that which He permits (or, in this case, holy angels acting as His agents). The Egyptians were permitted to perish as their chariots got stuck in the mud. Why would you think that chariots could operate in mud? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Deep, yes, but does "deep" mean that the Bible means the opposite of what it says? You mean the opposite of what you say it says....? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 7, 2010 Moderators Posted March 7, 2010 "So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead." Sick! David sins and others pay for his sin. So what happened to "the soul who sins will die"? Out the window, huh? Explain, then, what you believe happened in 2 Sam. 24. Why the plague? Why did all those people die? Was the writer simply wrong? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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