"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Guest]

Amen John

[pnattmbtc]

John317, please respond to post #342550.

I realize you're working on responding to posts. I also realize there are a lot, so I'm trying to help here, by pointing out posts I'm particularly interested in. (I'm not complaining that you didn't answer this post is my point).

[teresaq]

John, the statement that stood out for me from your last post is:

"So the law is not something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. They are above such rules."

It would seem that you are suggesting that to the children of God the law of ten precepts, the law of God's mouth, is something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. It may be a set of rules for those who have not experienced the new birth but for those who are born from above the law of God's mouth is not something exterior to them any more than it is to God. Christ is the living law and when He abides in the heart the Law of God is in the heart. It is then said that the Law is written upon the fleshly tablets of the heart which is just another way of saying that the believer has become a partaker of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:4. The believer has become one with Christ who is the Living Law.

The law of God's mouth is Spirit and Life, not a set of rules. But for those who only know the letter of the law, the law is a set of rules and in their efforts to obey these rules they become mere moralists or legalists as were the Pharisees of old.

sky

for me, the "principle of law" is not the same as what ellen white says when she talks about the "principles of the law".

"principle of law" seems to be talking about law in general or as talking about the reason for having law. but ellen white is talking about the deep and deeper meanings of the law not the rules-the letter of the law-when she speaks of the principles of the law.

the Godhead live the principles of the law. they always have. all created have to learn, ever learn those principles, as the angels and unfallen worlds did when Christ came to sacrifice Himself for us instead of wiping us out.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post328455

[pnattmbtc]

Recently I saw a post where you asked what this has to do with the discussion. It's related to the discussion because you said earlier that mankind will not learn that sin is evil if they are punished for sin by God's hand rather than by the natural consequenes of sin.

[pnattmbtc]

John317, please respond to post #342230.

[pnattmbtc]

John317, this is from a previous post. I realize it's impossible (or at least impractical) to answer everything from every post, so I'm reposting just a little bit of a previous post that I'd be interested in seeing your response:

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Remember that God is often presented as doing that which He permits. How do we know when this is or is not the case? (i.e., when God is taking direct action, as opposed to removing His protection).

For example, we're told that God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites. What did God actually do here? Did He take direct action, or remove His protection? How do we know?

J:The serpents were an example of destructive power resulting from God's permissive will. He withdrew his protective care from His people.

p:I asked how we know this. Why do you conclude this is an example of God's permissive will as opposed to active? The language is active.

The bold part is what's new.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

With sin came sickness and suffering, for we reap that which we sow.

Satan afterward caused man to charge upon God the suffering which is but the sure result of the transgression of physical law.

God is thus falsely accused, and his character misrepresented.

He is charged with doing that which Satan himself has done.

God would have his people expose this falsehood of the enemy.

To them he has given the light of the gospel of health, and as his representatives they are to give the light to others.

As they work to relieve suffering humanity, they are to point out the origin of all suffering, and direct the mind to Jesus, the great Healer of both soul and body.

His heart of sympathy goes out to all earth's sufferers, and with every one who works for their relief, he co-operates.

As with his blessing health returns, the character of God will be vindicated, and the lie thrown back upon Satan, its originator. {Christian Educator, October 1, 1898 par. 9}

Thanks, teresa!

I think this is a wonderful quote, very informative. It has all the principles in one place.

1.With sin came suffering and death, for we reap that which we sow.

2.Satan afterward caused man to charge upon God the suffering which is but the sure result of the transgression of physical law.

3.God is thus falsely accused, and his character misrepresented.

4.He is charged with doing that which Satan himself has done.

5.God would have his people expose this falsehood of the enemy.

6.As with his blessing spiritual or physical health returns, the character of God will be vindicated, and the lie thrown back upon Satan, its originator.

I changed 1 and 6 slightly, to make clear that the principle applies not just to physical health, but to spiritual health as well.

The principles are clearly seen here. The question is if these are sufficient. Is it enough to know that Satan is the author of sin and all its results, and that the effects of sin bring about all the evil there is in the world? Or must we suppose that some of the effects of sin comes from God's hand?

Let's think about this. We are told Satan is the author of sin and all its results.

What are some results of sin?

1.Suffering

2.Sickness

3.Death

4.Violence

5.Compelling power

None of these things existed before sin. Satan is the author of all of these things, which are the results of sin.

So why would we think that God does things of which Satan is the author?

[doug yowell]

___________________________________________________

doug, God would be like Satan if He directly hurt or destroyed those who do not appreciate His work or act contrary to His ideas. "There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt or destroy those who do not appreciate our work or act contrary to our ideas." D.A.487.

.

Not only is the whole world deceived but so are the professed people of God.

sky

Apparantly you and pnatt have a difference of opinion here.But I'll ask again. Why would God be just like Satan if He directly executes judgment? Your quote from DA487 contains a key word that explains clearly what EGW meant,"disposition". If God has no disposition to hurt or destroy why is He like Satan if He has to exercise His "strange act"? The Bible is full of stories that demonstrate God's willingness to personally take the lives of those who were incorrigibly rebellious (thanks John3:17 for just a few other texts).Given His longsuffering,and overwhelming blessings, and numerous opportunities for repentence, how can anyone really accuse Him of being evil for personally taking back what is His in the first place?

[John317]

I think those are very important points, Richard.

Neither the Bible nor the Spirit of prophecy indicate that the wicked are sentenced to kill or punish each other. How could that be when we know that the wicked are rewarded according to their deeds? How could punishing each other arbitarily reward every individual according to what they have done?

More importantly, how is this like the descriptions of the final punishment and destruction of the wicked as found in both the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy?

I recently noticed this very significant passage by Ellen White about Christ: "He alone is the judge of their [His people's] righteousness, for He created them, and at infinite cost to Himself redeemed them. HE WILL SEE THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S COMMANDMENTS IS REWARDED, AND THAT TRANSGRESSORS RECEIVE ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." Letter 19, 1901 (SDA BC 7A, under John 5: 22)

How could Jesus "see that transgressors receive according to their works" if God is fundamentally passive in the destruction of the wicked and they simply die as a natural consequence of their sins, apart from "God's hand"? Clearly Jesus Christ is the One who metes out to the wicked the portion which they MUST suffer. EW 290, 291. Like you, I can't see how this could happen if the wicked kill each other rather than being destroyed by God as the Bible and SOP describe it.

Speaking of the scenes that occur when the wicked are destroyed, Ellen White says, "The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail aginst Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception. With the fury of demons they turn upon them, and there follows a scene of universal strife. Then are fulfilled the words of the prophet: 'The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.' 'Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.' Fire comes down from God out of Heaven... Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds... [satan] is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for the sins which he has caused God's people to commit..." 4 SP 487, 488

To me it seems clear that the "universal strife" merely shows what spirit they are of, but it does not result in the destruction or death of the wicked. Our God of justice, infinite love, and mercy is Himself in total control of the execution of the judgment against sin, and it is not left to the arbitrary wills of criminals and followers of the devil.

[skyblue888]

Doug, you said, "The Bible is full of stories that demonstrate God's willingness to personally take the lives of those who were incorrigibly rebellious."

___________________________________________

Doug, I believe that by saying this, we are, unwittingly, perpetuating Satan's lie which has been handed down to us through tradition and misintepretation.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

God's strange act is NOT to personally or directly take the lives of those who are incorrigibly rebellious.

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." R&H, Vol.3, p.583.

This is God's strange act. He is constantly at work to destroy the works of the devil, to repair, to save, and to heal.

"God's healing power runs all through nature. (Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will--M.H.416) If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm. Before sin created the need, God had provided the remedy. Every soul that yields to temptation is wounded, bruised, by the adversary; but wherever there is sin, there is the Saviour." Education, p.113.

This is Christ's continual "strange act" or work in the physical realm as well as in the spiritual realm.

The language of the Bible must be re-interpreted in the light of this revelation for the character of God has been misunderstood, misinterpreted, misrepresented. "At this time, a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." C.O.L.415.

This is a direct commentary upon the prophecy of Isaiah 60:1-3.

"Rise, shine, for your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. For behold the darkness shall cover the earth and gross darkness the people; but the Lord will arise over you, and His glory will be seen upon you. The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising."

sky

[John317]

John317, please respond to post #342550.

I realize you're working on responding to posts. I also realize there are a lot, so I'm trying to help here, by pointing out posts I'm particularly interested in. (I'm not complaining that you didn't answer this post is my point).

OK, thanks. Will do.

[doug yowell]

Yes, John and exactly who is causing Satan to suffer? Who finally exterminates him?And if sin kills the sinner then what's the point of the second resurrection? What's left for God to prove? They were already dead.

[doug yowell]

Doug, you said, "The Bible is full of stories that demonstrate God's willingness to personally take the lives of those who were incorrigibly rebellious."

___________________________________________

Doug, I believe that by saying this, we are, unwittingly, perpetuating Satan's lie which has been handed down to us through tradition and misintepretation.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

God's strange act is NOT to personally or directly take the lives of those who are incorrigibly rebellious.

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." R&H, Vol.3, p.583.

This is God's strange act. He is constantly at work to destroy the works of the devil, to repair, to save, and to heal.

"God's healing power runs all through nature. (Nature in her work testifies of an intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will--M.H.416) If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm. Before sin created the need, God had provided the remedy. Every soul that yields to temptation is wounded, bruised, by the adversary; but wherever there is sin, there is the Saviour." Education, p.113.

This is Christ's continual "strange act" or work in the physical realm as well as in the spiritual realm.

The language of the Bible must be re-interpreted in the light of this revelation for the character of God has been misunderstood, misinterpreted, misrepresented. "At this time, a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." C.O.L.415.

This is a direct commentary upon the prophecy of Isaiah 60:1-3.

"Rise, shine, for your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. For behold the darkness shall cover the earth and gross darkness the people; but the Lord will arise over you, and His glory will be seen upon you. The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising."

sky

Very unwittingly.

[skyblue888]

Yes, John and exactly who is causing Satan to suffer? Who finally exterminates him? And if sin kills the sinner then what's the point of the second resurrection? What's left for God to prove? They were already dead.

According to traditional thinking, God will cause Satan to suffer and He will finally exterminate him. According to this view which is hoary with age, God is the Exterminator. This traditional view is based on a misinterpretation of many passages of the Old Testament. "Tradition and misinterpretation has obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

The message contained in this last statement should be enough to get us to re-think or re-assess our thinking as to the way we have read and interpreted the Old Testament.

"How readest thou?"

sky

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: It's an interesting quote John317 brought out. He actually slightly misquoted her. She didn't say that Christ was "above the law" but that He was "above law." She gave as the reason that He originated the law.

It seems she may have been arguing that as God, the originator of the law, Christ's relation to the law was not the same as it would be for a creature. When Christ became a creature, He voluntarily assumed the same relation to the law that a creature has.

Yes, we're in fundamental agreement on this. I did comment in a recent post regarding the difference between "above law" and "above the law," but you are absolutely right that in my initial quoting of that passage, I "slightly misquoted her,"

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Doug, you said, "The Bible is full of stories that demonstrate God's willingness to personally take the lives of those who were incorrigibly rebellious."

___________________________________________

Doug, I believe that by saying this, we are, unwittingly, perpetuating Satan's lie which has been handed down to us through tradition and misintepretation.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

God's strange act is NOT to personally or directly take the lives of those who are incorrigibly rebellious.

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." R&H, Vol.3, p.583.

This is God's strange act. He is constantly at work to destroy the works of the devil, to repair, to save, and to heal.

"God's healing power runs all through nature. (Nature in her work testifies of an intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will--M.H.416) If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm. Before sin created the need, God had provided the remedy. Every soul that yields to temptation is wounded, bruised, by the adversary; but wherever there is sin, there is the Saviour." Education, p.113.

This is Christ's continual "strange act" or work in the physical realm as well as in the spiritual realm.

The language of the Bible must be re-interpreted in the light of this revelation for the character of God has been misunderstood, misinterpreted, misrepresented. "At this time, a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." C.O.L.415.

This is a direct commentary upon the prophecy of Isaiah 60:1-3.

"Rise, shine, for your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. For behold the darkness shall cover the earth and gross darkness the people; but the Lord will arise over you, and His glory will be seen upon you. The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising."

sky

Very unwittingly.

:)

[John317]

Quote:

skyblue888: .... we are, unwittingly, perpetuating Satan's lie which has been handed down to us through tradition and misintepretation.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

I hear what you're saying, sky, and I'm sure that no one involved in the current discussion wants to help Satan in his lies against God. We want to tell the truth but the truth as the Bible teaches it and not as people may want to hear it.

It seems to me that your argument assumes that God is like Satan if He judges sinners and then excutes the judgment against them for their wickness, whereas God is loving if He allows them to murder one another in a mass slaughter. It would be murder unless God commands them to kill, but I doubt you would say God commands them to take each other's lives.

In light of your statement above, how do you explain the fact that the Bible and Spirit of prophecy themselves so clearly use language which leads its readers to conclusions which you believe perpetuate Satan's lie? For instance, isn't it true that the Bible unquestionably contains much language that describes God as destroying the wicked in fire? Would God inspire the prophets to write in this way and then blame Bible students and readers if they accept the prophet's writings for what they actually say?

Also, are you sure that Satan's lie is that God will actively destroy sinners? Isn't it Satan's lie that God won't destroy sinners but that if God does punish the wicked, they will continue to live in the fire instead of being utterly destroyed by it?

Where does Ellen White indicate Satan's lie is that God will cause fire to come down on sinners and destroy them in the gehenna of fire after the thousand years?

If Mrs. White does say this-- that God won't destroy sinners in fire, but Satan is foisting this lie on humanity-- doesn't that mean Jesus and the prophets lied (in verses such as Luke 12: 4, 5, 46-48; Mal. 4: 1,3) and Satan is telling the truth?

[Robert]

Why, then, did God and Christ and the Holy Spirit work together for the salvation of the human race? Strictly out of their love [agape], grace, and pity-- for no other reason, and certainly not in order to conform to any law. If God had to do something because of a law, it would make the law superior to God, and this cannot be.

Agape is the fulfillment of the law. The spirit of the law requires selfless, agape love. Jesus is agape and therefore Jesus could do not other than to save the human race. He loves us despite ourselves. On the cross He was willing to say goodbye to life forever rather save Himself. The latter would have been iniquity. God can't live outside His own agape since He is the source of agape.

[Robert]

doesn't that mean Jesus ... lied ?

Doesn't matter....Jesus can lie, cheat, kill, destroy, manipulate and a host of other sins because Christ, as you say, can do as He pleases. He is above the law.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Ellen White wrote in PP 429 that this event occurred as a result of God's withdrawing His protective care in order to teach the people a lesson about obedience.

Quote:

pnattmbtc] This is irrelevant, unless your response is the way you know that the Bible is speaking of God's permissive will is because of Ellen White said so. Is this your point?

Scholars outside the Adventist church believe as do Seventh-day Adventists that God removed his protective care from the people as a result of their rebellion, thus allowing the serpents which were populous in that area to infest the Israelite camps. This conclusion is well supported by such passages as Exodus 23: 20-31; Deut. 7; and Deut. 28; which are all descriptive of the blessing that was to come on the Israelite when they are obedient and faithful to God but which also describe the consequences of disobedience to Him. We know that God performed miracles in order to protect them and bless them in many ways. For instance, God kept them healthy and even prevents their shoes from wearing out. The remarkable thing is that except for the story of the serpents in Number 21, we have no mention of the people being bitten by snakes, although it seems that the deaths of many should have been expected, given the large number of Israelites, as well as the large number of serpents, in the desert.

We also have confirmation of this conclusion in the writings of Ellen G. White. I wouldn't ever say Ellen White's comments on the Bible are irrelevant. I know there are many, even within the church, who consider Ellen White's writings irrelevant, but I most definitely am not one of them. On the contrary, I believe her to have been as genuine a prophet of God as any of the biblical prophets. The only difference from my viewpoint is that she lived 1800 years after the canon was closed. Our church was fortunate and blessed to have been given that gift. There's no doubt in my mind that if the church had listened to, and obeyed, what God revealed to us through Ellen White, Christ would have come a long time ago. We're still here, wandering around in the wilderness, as it were, because, like the children Israel on the very borders of the Promised Land, we've rebelled against God and against His prophet.

I'm fully aware of the relationship between Ellen White's writings and the Bible-- that our doctrines must be based on Scripture and that we're to study the Bible fully BEFORE we study what Ellen White wrote-- and I do practice this; but what we're talking about here is not "doctrine" properly speaking, but of understanding how an event occurred.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: Doesn't matter....Jesus can lie, cheat, kill, destroy, manipulate and a host of other sins because Christ, as you say, can do as He pleases. He is above the law.

You are obviously not even reading what is posted, so it seems clear you don't care if what you say is true or not.

Study the following, which describes my belief about God and what it means to be "above law." It is not at all what you think it is.

He is "above law" in the sense that Ellen White is using that phrase here. She is saying that God the Father and the Son do not rely on obedience to law in order to be righteous or to become rightous. They are righteousness itself. They are love itself. They don't "do" the law or "do" what's loving-- they themselves are the law and they themselves are love. So the law is not something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. They are above such rules. Why? Because the law, as we read it, is a written expression of God's very character. Therefore, to the degree that the law describes God's character, they are not a set of rules which He obeys. They are rules to us so that we may know what we must do in order to be in harmony with His character. For instance, we can't expect to be in harmony with Him if we don't love others and if we don't love Him with our whole being.

I think when some people speak of "above law," they imagine it means being at liberty to do all sorts of things contrary to the law. But that is not the sense in which Ellen White uses it. She is not describing the pre-incarnate Christ as someone who was acting in a way that was contrary to the moral law, although some people might think He was acting unjustly by such things as commanding the Israelites to go to war against their neighbors. She is saying that before He came here, Christ was already equal to the Father and therefore in perfect relationship with Him. There was no necessity to keep the law as rules or requirements in order to redeem himself or to bring himself back into harmony with God. Christ was not obligated to sacrifice Himself but He was a "freewill offering to God."

Christ and the Father set the standards of the law by virtue of the fact that they ARE the law. The law, then, does not dictate or instruct them as it does creatures. For instance, if Christ and the Father had decided to allow humanity to reap the consequences of sin-- eternal death-- they would have been right to do so, and no one would have had grounds for saying He was unfair or unjust to do it. They were not obligated to any standard which dicated that they had to save mankind. That is why Christ was able to give Himself as a freewill offering to God. He could not have done this if He was not above law.

Why, then, did God and Christ and the Holy Spirit work together for the salvation of the human race? Strictly out of their love, grace, and pity-- for no other reason, and certainly not in order to conform to any law. If God had to do something because of a law, it would make the law superior to God, and this cannot be. As Louis Berkhof says, "Though there is no law above God, there is certainly a law in the very nature of God, and this is the highest possible standard, by which all other laws are judged." (Systematic Theology, Berkhof, Wm. B. Eernmans Pub. Co., p. 74)

The fact that the Godhead is "above law" is the reason Ellen White could make such statements as the following:

"God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws...[God] can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, BUT GOD DROWNED THE VAST WORLD. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, BUT GOD WOULD DO IT IN STRICT JUSTICE." 12 MR 207-209

"The Lord is regarded as cruel by many in requiring his people to make war with other nations. They say that it is contrary to his benevolent character. But he who made the world and formed man to dwell upon the earth, has unlimited control over all the works of his hands, and it is his right to do as he pleases, and what he pleases with the work of his hands. Man has no right to say to his maker, Why doest thou thus? There is no injustice in his character. He is the Ruler of the world..." Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, p. 50.

From this we learn several things about God:

1) The same moral standard does not apply to God as it does to mankind. It would be wrong for people to inflict the kind of punishment that it is right for God in inflict on humans.

2) The moral standards are made by God, the Ruler of the world and of the entire universe. The law does not exist apart from Him. The law is not something that stands above God so that He must conform His behavior to it. He does not consult the law in order to decide what He will or will not do. He consults only His will, and since there is no injustice in His character, He always acts in harmony with His own character of righteousness, justice, holiness, love, and mercy.

3) God alone decides how to execute His own laws. People do not and cannot decide how God should execute God's laws. Man has no right to say to his maker, Why doest thou thus?

4) God has unlimited control over all the works of his hands, and it is his right to do as he pleases, and what he pleases with the work of his hands.

[John317]

Quote:

Richard, quoting: The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

Quote:

skyblue888: But that statement does not say that God directly inflicts this punishment Himself. It is difficult for human beings to accept the idea that God would even give us up to the enemy who is just waiting to make us suffer by fire or whatever means he can use.

The above EGW quote is dealing directly with the subject of the final destruction of the wicked. Ellen White believed and taught that God directly caused the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and she also taught that the final destruction of the wicked would be the direct work of God and Christ. All one has to do is read everything she wrote on the topic, in Early Writings and in the Great Controversy and other writings. It is straightforward, literal language, not symbolism. It's best to allow the plain, straightforward statements to interpret the obscure statements that require interpretation. That one of the key principles of hermeneutics. We should not let the more obscure verse, which can be interpretated in several ways, to change the meaning of a plain, straightforward sentence. I think that is what is being done by those who say God has never destroyed or that He won't destroy the wicked by fire at the end of the world.

"

Quote:

skyblue888: We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner." 1 S.M.235.

That is true. God is not waiting to punish to sinner. It means God doesn't get any pleasure from anyone's suffering and pain. But notice that the statement is NOT that God won't ever punish the sinner. This should be obvious since she says hundreds of times in her writings over a period of about 50 years that God will indeed punish the wicked. She even says Christ and the righteous examine the lives of the wicked during the 1000 years and then decide the punishment of the wicked. She also says that Christ will make sure that the wicked are punished for their sins. I see this message as clear as glass in EW 290, 291, 52, 53, and GC 667 to 673.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Why, then, did God and Christ and the Holy Spirit work together for the salvation of the human race? Strictly out of their love [agape], grace, and pity-- for no other reason, and certainly not in order to conform to any law. If God had to do something because of a law, it would make the law superior to God, and this cannot be.

Quote:

Robert: Agape is the fulfillment of the law. The spirit of the law requires selfless, agape love. Jesus is agape and therefore Jesus could do not other than to save the human race. He loves us despite ourselves. On the cross He was willing to say goodbye to life forever rather save Himself. The latter would have been iniquity. God can't live outside His own agape since He is the source of agape.

Of course He loves everyone but what you seem to be forgetting or not taking into account is the simple fact that the Bible teaches that there will come an end to human probation. People will make up their minds whom they will worship and they won't change their minds. At that point, God doesn't continue to keep the wicked alive. He will bring sin to an end, along with sinners who refuse to give up their sinful practices. His death on the cross is a guarantee that God is serious about putting an end to the Great Controversy and the reign of sin and death.

[Robert]

Quote:

Robert: Doesn't matter....Jesus can lie, cheat, kill, destroy, manipulate and a host of other sins because Christ, as you say, can do as He pleases. He is above the law.

You are obviously not even reading what is posted, so it seems clear you don't care if what you say is true or not.

[Robert]

John, my ears are shut to you....Everything you say goes against agape love....You speak nonsense....You poison agape...you must be a cold man....