"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

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pnattmbtc:

A. Graham Maxwell said a wonderful thing which made a profound impact upon me when I first heard it, and has stuck with me since. He said that even the wicked have nothing to fear from God. What he said is in perfect harmony with what Ellen White wrote here. Even for the good of those upon whom the judgments are visited does God execute justice. This makes no sense in your paradigm, but perfect sense in mine. In mine, you could ask the wicked themselves, after the judgment has been visited upon them, if what happened to them was for their own good, and they would say yes. You could ask them if God was just, merciful, kind, benevolent for treating them the way He has, and they would agree with that. There's no way that a person being set on fire to burn alive for hours or days would appraise God in this fashion.

I know Dr. Graham personally, have been in his home and interviewed him for Insight magazine. We worked together in composing two articles on his beliefs. I was in his Sabbath school class for 15 years. I admire him and think very highly of him, and still enjoy listening to him. So I understand his views very well. He told me personally that he believes that God destroyed Sodom and the world in a flood.

I think you have an unrealistic view of the wicked after the judgment. They all try to kill each other and also try to attack the city of God. They do admit that God is right but they do not have the Holy Spirit but they are controlled by demons. It seems to me you are going more by your feelings and wishful thinking than you are by what the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy say. Go back and re-read what the Bible teaches and what Ellen White wrote about the destruction of the wicked. She says Satan is "constrained"[Constrained= forced, compelled.] to admit the truth, and the wicked admit that God has been right but then they immediately continue to do the same evil works.

I gotta go to bed. I was going to earlier. Now I simply must. See ya.

[pnattmbtc]

I know Dr. Graham personally, have been in his home and interviewed him for Insight magazine. We worked together in composing two articles on his beliefs. I was in his Sabbath school class for 15 years. I admire him and think very highly of him, and still enjoy listening to him. So I understand his views very well. He told me personally that he believes that God destroyed Sodom and the world in a flood.

[John317]

Actually the Bible calls it torturing the wicked in Rev. 14. I don't consider it "torturing," as you do. That may be the major hurdle for you. If a person did it, of course it would be torturing. But God is not a man, is he?

Please check out 12 MR 207-208. "God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. .... Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, BUT GOD WOULD DO IT IN STRICT JUSTICE."

It would have been murder for Lot to destroy and inflict PUNISHMENT on his son-in-law, BUT GOD DESTROYED THEM AND INFLICTED PUNISHMENT IN STRICT JUSTICE.

Similarly it would be murder if I burned up wicked people. But I am not the Judge of the universe. I did not create humans. God made the laws and is Judge and He made everything that exists. Are you going to tell him what He must do in order to be just?

God has an absolute right-- "unlimited control"-- to do what He chooses with the creation of his hands. Man has no right to ask God, Why are you doing that?

It is part of the concept of justice that the wicked must be punished according to the things they have done. You believe in proportional punishment, I'm sure. You wouldn't want a judge to give a mass murderer and a man who steals a loaf of bread the same punishment, would you? Well, God won't do it either. How much punishment do you thinking Satan deserves? Any? Any suffering deserved there? How about Hitler-- does he deserve to suffer for all those 15+ millions of people whose lives he's responsible for?

On the oher hand, what about the teen-ager who is in rebellion against his dad and shot him in a fit of rage, and then spent years in sorrow for what the did? He never accepted Christ but he turned out to be a pretty good citizen in the prison. He can't be saved because he rejected Christ and was an unrepentant fornicator, but does he deserve the same punished as the devil or as Hitler?

So I think you will agree that God is right to give proportional punishment to the wicked. And how is it determined according to the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy? Does it just depend on the wicked? No. Ellen White says plainly that Christ-- the loving Creator, Redeemer and Judge-- is the one who "decides." I'm glad He is. He won't be arbitrary. He will judge righteously and with love and mercy.

Would you want God to ask all the criminals how He should punish them? God does care about whether the whole universe agrees with Him, but He is not asking the whole universe to tell him how He will punish the wicked. All He is doing is asking the universe to watch how it's done. Everything is out in the open for inspection. God even asks the wicked if they acknowledge that He's been right. They will say He has been right but it is too late to change them. Immediately after admitting that God is right, they are ready to tear Him and Christ from their throne. That is when the fire falls from heaven and consumes them-- burns them up completely. The same fire that consumes the wicked also purifies the earth. So says the prophet. I believe her.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

Can you tell us who the first SDA was who stated clearly that God will not destroy the wicked by fire after the one thousand years? Please give the reference.

with all due respect, can you give one pioneer who believed in the "trinity" doctrine? or that the Holy Spirit literally inhabits a person? please give the reference.

If you assert that early pioneers believed this, then you should not have a problem naming them Theresa.

I am also waiting for this.

If I remember correctly, you stated that some of the early pioneers believed what you believe, that God does not destroy.

John317 has asked you a number of times to show this now, this is my second time.

If you cannot supply a name or reference, you should withdraw this claim.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

You just can't help yourself, can you?

It's called a huge ego....His education has gone to his head....He think he is Mr. Bible...the answer man. At one time I would have listened to John, but I've learned forceful folks like John, as well meaning as they might be, are fallible people who many times are wrong....We must arrive at truth for ourselves....If we are honestly wrong God still accepts us....but He will never accept us through another's theology.

Robert, you stated on a number of occassions that accepting Ellen Whites writings made you a "monster".

Now you have rejected her writings, has your "character" changed?

This accussation against John317 would indicate to me, that whilst you have on the one hand rejected Ellen White, the "monster" remains, what do you think?

If Ellen White was the problem, why is the "monster" still here for all to see?

[Twilight]

I am still wondering how one quote has been made the guiding principle above another, which states that Gods angels and evil angels destroy?

This is the key issue.

Why is this a "universal principle", upon who's authority has it been granted this "status"?

This idea that "God never destroys in an active role"...

[Twilight]

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Well, you need to ask my kids...my ex-wife, what I became. I became a mean spirited, legalist. I judged everyone. If you wore a wedding ring you were going to hell. If you eat meat...again, hell, etc, etc. The bottom line is I became a devil....

I have to say Robert, like I said earlier, you might have thrown away Ellen White, but it seems clear that the problem has not been solved.

The mean spirit is still being expressed.

The monster is still there my friend.

Maybe Ellen White was not the problem, maybe you are the problem?

Just as I am the "problem".

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

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pnattmbtc:I appreciate you're taking the effort to write this long post, but you've still not dealt with the point I'm trying to get at, which is why you think God is capable of torturing people.

J:Actually the Bible calls it torturing the wicked in Rev. 14. I don't consider it "torturing," as you do. That may be the major hurdle for you. If a person did it, of course it would be torturing. But God is not a man, is he?

I think if you asked someone set on fire, they wouldn't care who set the fire.

A definition of "torture" which looks to fit exactly:

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the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish.(Webster's second definition)

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Please check out 12 MR 207-208. "God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. .... Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, BUT GOD WOULD DO IT IN STRICT JUSTICE."

It would have been murder for Lot to destroy and inflict PUNISHMENT on his son-in-law, BUT GOD DESTROYED THEM AND INFLICTED PUNISHMENT IN STRICT JUSTICE.

Similarly it would be murder if I burned up wicked people. But I am not the Judge of the universe. I did not create humans. God made the laws and is Judge and He made everything that exists. Are you going to tell him what He must do in order to be just?

God has an absolute right-- "unlimited control"-- to do what He chooses with the creation of his hands. Man has no right to ask God, Why are you doing that?

So God can rape, torture, what else to add?, steal, lie, whatever, and no one would have a right to question this? Doesn't God invites us to reason together? Doesn't He open the books of heaven for all to see and judge for themselves how God as conducted things? We're told that the truth has nothing to fear from investigation.

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It is part of the concept of justice that the wicked must be punished according to the things they have done. You believe in proportional punishment, I'm sure. You wouldn't want a judge to give a mass murderer and a man who steals a loaf of bread the same punishment, would you?

The man who steals a loaf of bread should be burned alive for just a little bit, but the murderer should be burned alive for much longer. Is this the idea? we don't do that on this sin-cursed earth, because this would be "cruel and unusual punishment." But supposedly God can be vastly more cruel than we sinful humans, without any problem as far as His character is concerned. So on a continuum we would have, in terms of cruelty, something like :Jesus, everyone one else ranging from least cruel to most cruel (think of the most cruel humans here), God. What could be a bigger disconnect than this? Jesus Christ, the least cruel human being ever, came to reveal the Father.

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Well, God won't do it either. How much punishment do you thinking Satan deserves? Any? Any suffering deserved there? How about Hitler-- does he deserve to suffer for all those 15+ millions of people whose lives he's responsible for?

Your idea supposes that sin is innocuous. Did you read what I posted of Ty? I can try to repost it if you don't remember.

The mind records everything that happens. When we do wrong, that's registered, and, assuming we know what we're doing, there's an impact upon the conscience when light shines. This causes suffering. The suffering caused is proportional to one's sin and the light one has rejected because it has to be. There's nothing arbitrary involved: it's cause and effect. Sin ==> Guilt ==> Suffering.

The SOP tells us if we had to bear our guilt, it would crush us. In this life, God mercifully hides our guilt from us, allowing it to register upon us a bit at a time, in small measures, so we can repent and be healed. This way we can receive more and more light, and be healed more and more, as they light burns ever more brightly until reaching the noon time sun. For the wicked, there will be no healing, because their characters have been fixed against God and the principles of His government.

Ty does a better job of explaining the principles, but this is a short explanation. Recognizing this aspect of sin, it's not necessary to postulate an arbitrary act on the part of God to cause torture.

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On the oher hand, what about the teen-ager who is in rebellion against his dad and shot him in a fit of rage, and then spent years in sorrow for what the did? He never accepted Christ but he turned out to be a pretty good citizen in the prison. He can't be saved because he rejected Christ and was an unrepentant fornicator, but does he deserve the same punished as the devil or as Hitler?

He should be burned alive and tortured for less time is your idea, right?

I would say that he would suffer less because he's already confronted his guilt, at least insofar as this act is concerned. Of course, if he's lost, there will be other acts of rebellion and sin, and thus guilt, so he would suffer because of that.

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So I think you will agree that God is right to give proportional punishment to the wicked.

Their guilt isn't something God gives to them. They incur it by sinning against light.

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And how is it determined according to the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy? Does it just depend on the wicked? No. Ellen White says plainly that Christ-- the loving Creator, Redeemer and Judge-- is the one who "decides." I'm glad He is. He won't be arbitrary.

Well, this would be the definition of arbitrary.

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depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law <the manner of punishment is arbitrary>

So God would be being arbitrary in this case.

I agree that God won't be arbitrary, the reason being that sin is not innocuous. The inevitable result of sin is suffering and death.

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God’s purpose is not merely to deliver from the suffering that is the inevitable result of sin, but to save from sin itself. (MB 61)

There are many statements like this. Suffering and death is the inevitable result of sin. Not as an arbitrary act of power imposed by God, but it's a function of sin. Consider that the root of sin is selfishness. "Me first" can not not lead to suffering. We all know this by personal experience. Sin = suffering and death. It's part and partial to sin.

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He will judge righteously and with love and mercy.

Which wouldn't be the case if God were torturing people by setting them on fire.

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Would you want God to ask all the criminals how He should punish them?

You're assuming that sin is innocuous, that it does entail suffering and death. But sin is not innocuous. With sin comes suffering, and the suffering is proportional to the sin, as it comes as a result of light, guilt and conscience.

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God does care about whether the whole universe agrees with Him, but He is not asking the whole universe to tell him how He will punish the wicked. All He is doing is asking the universe to watch how it's done.

How did you get ideas like this? How can you write something like this and not cringe? Actually what you wrote made me laugh out loud as a defense mechanism.

This is portraying an awful view of God here. I don't see how you don't see this. "All He is doing is asking the universe to watch how it's done." How can you write something like this? How do you think this sounds?

No, He's not just "asking the universe to watch how it's done." He's asking the universe to judge how He has conducted things. God is humble, and submits His case to the judgment of all.

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Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy has now been made plain. The results of rebellion, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, have been laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The working out of Satan's rule in contrast with the government of God has been presented to the whole universe. Satan's own works have condemned him. God's wisdom, His justice, and His goodness stand fully vindicated. It is seen that all His dealings in the great controversy have been conducted with respect to the eternal good of His people and the good of all the worlds that He has created. "All Thy works shall praise Thee, O Lord; and Thy saints shall bless Thee." Psalm 145:10. The history of sin will stand to all eternity as a witness that with the existence of God's law is bound up the happiness of all the beings He has created. With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints." (GC 670)

God is a kind, benevolent, compassionate, merciful and loving being. His justice and righteousness embody these attributes.

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Execute true justice, show mercy and compassion, everyone to his brother. (Zech.7:9)

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Everything is out in the open for inspection. God even asks the wicked if they acknowledge that He's been right. They will say He has been right but it is too late to change them. Immediately after admitting that God is right, they are ready to tear Him and Christ from their throne.

The wicked have chosen to live according to the "me first" principle, so this would lead to wanting to take God or Christ from their throne, or remove anyone else who gets in the way. This is the essence of selfishness.

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That is when the fire falls from heaven and consumes them-- burns them up completely. The same fire that consumes the wicked also purifies the earth. So says the prophet. I believe her.

I believe this too.

Where I disagree with you is in regards to the idea that the wicked will be set on fire to be burned alive. No where is this stated; it's simply something you infer. But GC 535 clearly argues against this idea:

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How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. (GC 535)

You can't dismiss this as not being at all applicable because it's dealing with eternal torment, because much of what's written here would apply to your scenario as well. In particular, consider:

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Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage?

Your idea is that God will have the saved review the books of heaven and determine for how longer their loved ones and former friends and acquaintances should be burned alive. This is beyond incredible. How could you, or anyone, look at the life record of their son or wife of mother and determine "My son (or wife, or mother) should be set on fire and burned for 1 day, 5 hours, and 33 minutes."?

But this is exactly what you think, isn't it? Look at the life record, and consider sin 1. Determine for how much time the victim should be burned for this sin. Move on to the next sin. Determine the time of burning for this sin, and then add it to the previous time. Continue until there are no more sins.

How can you not see a problem with this?

Also, a question I've been asking repeatedly, how can you maintain this point of view and simultaneously assert that God does not coerce the will? Clearly if a person is aware that God will burn him alive if he does not do what He says, God is coercing the will. All you've got to do to see this is just ask the question, "If someone, X, said to me, 'Do what I tell you or I'll set you on fire,' is X coercing my will?" Clearly X would be forcing the will in this case. It's no different (actually it is different; it's worse) than someone holding a gun to your head and demanding your wallet.

[pnattmbtc]

I am still wondering how one quote has been made the guiding principle above another, which states that Gods angels and evil angels destroy?

This is the key issue.

Why is this a "universal principle", upon who's authority has it been granted this "status"?

This idea that "God never destroys in an active role"...

[skyblue888]

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Everything is out in the open for inspection. God even asks the wicked if they acknowledge that He's been right. They will say He has been right but it is too late to change them. Immediately after admitting that God is right, they are ready to tear Him and Christ from their throne.

John317

______________________________________________________

Now John, that is simply not true. Immediately after admitting that God is right, that all His ways are righteous, the unsaved of all ages begin accusing one another but they all agree to put the blame on Satan for their being lost eternally and they turn upon him and his angels with the fury of demons. They are not thinking about tearing Christ from His throne anymore at that point of time.

It is after they have been raised from the dead that Satan convinces them that they can take the City and tear God and Christ from their throne. This is before they see in panoramic view the whole plan of redemption. After that, they all acknowledge that God is righteous in all His ways. All bow before the Majesty of Heaven including Satan himself. Then their only desire is to inflict much pain on Satan and his angels. And the Lord will not interfere. This is how "evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21. During that gigantic struggle all will perish and suffer according to the deeds done in the body but Satan will be the last to fall. See Ezekiel 28:6-10. From the midst of this terrible battle, this passage of Scriptute will be fulfiled, "Therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you into ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you." Ezekiel 28:18. God will not cause that fire to come from Satan's midst any more than He directly brings calamities upon anyone. The fire will come from their midst while Satan and his angels and the most violent of the nations fight against each other to remain alive. In their efforts to stay alive they will prolong their physical sufferings but especially their mental agony.

sky

[skyblue888]

pnatt i just finished reading your last posts answering john's posts. Really appreciate that you take the time to address each point with so much care. Thank you. God be praised.

sky

*of course we can appreciate John's efforts as well in presenting his views but IMHO you have clearly shown that his interpretations of many passages of Scripture as well as many statements from the Testimonies are off. They are in harmony with the traditional view which presents God before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan.

[pnattmbtc]

They are in harmony with the traditional view which presents God before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan.

This is apparently a difficult thing for many to see. Do you have an idea as to why this is?

There's a couple of possibilities. One possibility is that we have a certain view of God, and that view of God filters how we understand statements from inspiration.

Another possibility is that we have a certain methodology for how we interpret inspiration, and that methodology drives us to a certain conclusion in regards to God's character.

Which is the chicken and which is the egg here?

[skyblue888]

Well, the pen of inspiration clearly tells us that the traditional view is based on a misinterpretation of the Scriptures. So this misinterpretation of the Scripture would have to be the chicken, wouldn't it? And where do you think this false interpretation originated from? "Satan has misrepresented the character of God." 1 S.M.355.

And the whole world pays homage to this misrepresentation just as they pay homage to the false day of worship that he has instituted.

"Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people." Isaiah 60:2.

And to make things even worse, concerning the character of God, "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded." 1 S.M.355. Just as Satan succeeded in blinding the minds of the Jews in regard to the true character of God he has succeeded in blinding the minds of the servants of God today that they may not be able to discern the precious truth.

sky

*i understand this is not something new to you

[pnattmbtc]

sky, I hear you saying that the chicken is God's character, and the egg is the methodology of interpretation. That's right?

[skyblue888]

Satan succeeded in misrepresenting the character of God by misinterpreting the Scriptures. This is the methodology. So that would be the chicken,wouldn't it? The egg or the result of this false methodology is that most people see God in a false light.

Right?

[pnattmbtc]

Here's what I'm getting at, sky. If the chicken is God's character, then our emphasis should be that; the methodology would be of less concern (not unimportant, but not the main focus). However, if the methodology is the chicken, then that becomes much more important.

So say God's character is the chicken. Then our focus should be to true to portray God's character accurately, and then once that's seen, the methodology will fall into place.

Conversely, if the methodology were the chicken, then we should spend more time on that, with the hope that once the methodology is applied correctly, God's character would be seen.

As I right this out, it seems really unlikely that the methodology is the problem. I've been thinking about this because I know someone who views the error in methodology as really important. As I'm thinking about this, I'm not sure it is. (Of course, it's important to some extent, but how much?)

Here's an analogy. Romans 1 tells us

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18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful...

This means that everybody knows of God, and knows something of His character (enough that they are to blame for not being thankful to God). So this tells me that spending a lot of time trying to debunk evolution or prove that God exists may not be the best use of time, because it's not dealing with the real issue.

Was my point clear here in the analogy? If not, I can flesh it out.

[skyblue888]

pnatt, I suppose we could go round and round debating what is the "chicken" and what is the "egg." When I think about the "chicken" I think of the reason why the character of God has been misunderstood. So to me the chicken is the culprit and the culprit is that Satan has twisted the meaning of Scripture and the result has been what it is: the character of God has been misunderstood. So the bad "egg" hatched from this sick chicken is: misapprehension of God. Does that make sense?

Please take the time to read the following even if it is a bit long. It couldn't be shorten.

It is safe to say that three facts are common to us all.

The first is that we have, either consciously or subconsciously, a definite opinion about the character of God. Even though little direct thought or specific expression may have been given to the topic, it is true nonetheless.

The second is that our attitude toward God, our treatment of others, and our receptivity of truth are determined by these opinions.

The third is that all of us were born predispositioned to possess a false concept of God which in turn has been confirmed and extended by environmental educational influences. Unless delivered from this and initiated into a true knowledge of God, it will be impossible to enter into a full and perfect Christian experience, and the prospects of eternal life will be endangered.

If this seems to be saying too much, consider the proof of these words as provided in the history of the Jews of Christ's day.

When Christ first appeared working amazing miracles, proclaiming the kingdom, and proving that He carne at exactly the time specified in Daniel 9, He quickly became a very popular figure.

Thousands followed Him, confident that He would re-establish the lost glory of Israel. The Jewish leaders studied the movement with increasing apprehension seeing in it the threat to their prestige and power. His following continued to swell until the feeding of the five thousand with the loaves and fishes. Then, when the enthusiasm of the people had reached its height and they were determined to crown Him king, the tide suddenly turned, the enthusiasm died away, and the crowds walked with Him no more. From that time every step led to the cross when those who had so ardently called for His crowning. screamed for His crucifixion.

What was the factor which caused this astonishing reversal?

The answer is not difficult to find.

They had a very definite but false concept of God's character, shaped by the educational processes in their environment. This factor was so fixed and powerful that it influenced them to reject the Saviour because He did not perform as their concept of God's character led them to expect and desire of Him. Thus the question of God's character became the most critical element in the mission of Jesus and the fate of the Jews. Had they correctly understood this, the history of His work on earth would have been very different.

Any careful study of the mounting conflict between Christ and the people leaves no doubt of the veracity of the above assertions.

A great and significant event in His early ministry was the sermon on the mount. Everyone who attended came anticipating important announcements about the coming kingdom. The Pharisees “Iooked forward to the day when they should have dominion over the hated Romans, and possess the riches and splendor of the world's great empire. The poor peasants and fishermen hoped to hear the assurance that their wretched hovels, the scanty food, the life of toil, and fear of want were to be exchanged for mansions of plenty and days of ease. In place of the one coarse garment which was their covering by day, and their blanket by night, they hoped that Christ would give them the rich and costly robes of their conquerors. All hearts thrilled with the proud hope that Israel was soon to be honored before the nations as the chosen of the Lord, and Jerusalem exalted as the head of a universal kingdom." The Desire of Ages, 299.

Because the devil had done his work well, the people believed not only that the Messiah would exalt them in this way but that He would do it by the use of the sword. They saw God as the vengeful, destroying One of the Old Testament. Their concept of the God of the Old Testament led them to believe that the God of the New would behave in the same way. But because their understanding of God's character was wrong, their expectations were to be disappointed.

"Christ disappointed the hope of worldly greatness. In the Sermon on the Mount He sought to undo the work that had been wrought by false education, and to give His hearers a right conception of His kingdom and of His own character." ibid.

The people did not hear what they had come to hear in the sermon on the mount, but they did not reject the Saviour just then. He did not directly attack their errors, and they were left with the vague hope that somehow He would yet assert His power and use it according to their ideas of God's character.

Their servitude to the Romans had placed that proud people in a desperate plight. They needed great help, and they knew it. Their understanding of the prophecies had led them to pin their entire hopes on the Messiah as the answer to this predicament if He should fail them, they would have nowhere else to turn.

Christ had not come to fail them. He knew exactly what their true needs were, and He had fully purposed to supply those needs. But the answer did not lie in the use of the weapons of

force. It lay in the changing of their characters into the likeness of His own. But so intent were they on their long cherished ambitions that there was no room to consider the alternative He offered.

The climax came at the feeding of the five thousand. Throughout the long day, He had thrilled their hearts with the wonder of His teachings. The sick had been healed and the multitude fed. As the day wore on ". . . they said one to another, 'This is of a truth that Prophet that should come into the world.'

"All day the conviction had strengthened. That crowning act is assurance that the long-looked-for Deliverer is among them. The hopes of the people rise higher and higher. This is He who will make Judea an earthly paradise, a land flowing with milk and honey. He can satisfy every desire. He can break the power of the hated Romans. He can deliver Judah and Jerusalem. He can heal the soldiers who are wounded in battle. He can supply whole armies with food. He can conquer the nations, and give to Israel the long-sought dominion.

"In their enthusiasm the people are ready at once to crown Him king. They see that He makes no effort to attract attention or secure honor to Himself. In this He is essentially different from the priests and rulers, and they fear that He will never urge His claim to David's throne. Consulting together, they agree to take Him by force, and proclaim Him the king of Israel. The disciples unite with the multitude in declaring the throne of David the rightful inheritance of their Master. It is the modesty of Christ, they say, that causes Him to refuse such honor. Let the people exalt their Deliverer. Let the arrogant priests and rulers be forced to honor Him who comes clothed with the authority of God." ibid., 377, 378.

They could see that Jesus loved them and that He had all the power necessary to give them all that they could desire. The only kind of character they knew and understood was the kind which used the possession of mighty power to achieve their selfish ambitions. They could not see and were unwilling to be taught that Christ did not have this kind of character. He loved the Romans as much as He loved the Jews, neither was it His way to use force to accomplish any desired objective. Therefore, in harmony with His character, He would not permit Himself to be made king by them, nor would He use His mighty powers to advantage one class of those whom He loved, above another. With an authority which none could disobey, He dismissed disciples and multitude alike.

The bitter complaint of the apostles against Him then was, "Why did not He who possessed such power reveal Himself in His true character, and make their way less painful?" ibid., 380.

The truth was that Christ was living out His character to perfection. It was because of what He was, that He did what He did. In their failure to understand His real character, they expected an altogether different line of behaviour. When He did not do what they believed that He should do, they felt cheated and betrayed.

So it was with the multitude. The next day after closely questioning Him, they came to see that He would never use His power as they expected Him to. For this reason they left Him forever. "If He would not devote His power and influence to obtaining their freedom from the Romans, they would have nothing to do with Him." ibid., 391.

Thus it was that their misunderstanding of the character of God in Christ led them to expect from Him a complete deliverance from the Romans and their exaltation to the heights of material grandeur. He was a Jew like they were. He was sent as the Messiah to the chosen and favoured people. He had the power. Therefore, they reasoned, it was His duty to use that power to favour them. If He refused to do it, then He was nothing short of a traitor to His own. They found Him guilty of treason and determined to be revenged.

Because they possessed the character which they believed He had, they did to Him with the power at their command, what they believed He should have done to the Romans. To accomplish this, they accused Him before the Romans of seeking to make Himself to be what they had actually tried to make Him—the king of the world. This was a totally false accusation which, though it enabled them to wreak vengeance on Him whom they believed had betrayed them, opened the floodgates of woe on the nation. Few people, if any, have suffered as the Jews have since that terrible time. Theirs is a fate which none would care to share.

If only they had understood the character of God so perfectly revealed in Christ, or at least been willing to be taught it, they would not have expected of Him what they did, nor would they have rejected and vengefully crucified Him. Thus the question of the character of God and Christ was the most critical element in His mission and in the fate of the Jews.

Contained in their history is a sober warning which none can treat lightly. The character of God is still the most critical issue in the mission of Christ.

As were the Jews, so too have all of us been subjected to an erroneous education in respect to God's character. But God will not leave us in this darkness without the opportunity to escape from it. When that light is presented to us, there is the terrible danger that we will repeat their history by rejecting the message because it does not conform to our already established ideas and does not suit our personal ambitions and dreams.

Let none repeat the fearful history of the Jews by rejecting God's truth on this basis. The outworking of such decisions have implications too terrible, final, and eternal to contemplate. Rather let there be an earnest, prayerful pleading with the Lord to open the eyes of our spiritual understanding to see God as He really is.

"And this is life eternal,

that they might know Thee

The only true God,

and Jesus Christ,

Whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

Any comment?

sky

[teresaq]

Quote:

God has an absolute right-- "unlimited control"-- to do what He chooses with the creation of his hands. Man has no right to ask God, Why are you doing that?

So God can rape, torture, what else to add?, steal, lie, whatever, and no one would have a right to question this? Doesn't God invites us to reason together?

i dont see how one can reason like this and understand what "the law is a transcript of Gods character" means at the same time. either the law is what God is or it isnt.

The glory of Christ is His character, and His character is an expression of the law of God. He fulfilled the law in its every specification, and gave to the world in His life a perfect pattern of what it is possible for humanity to attain unto by cooperation with divinity. In His humanity Christ was dependent upon the Father, even as humanity is now dependent upon God for divine power in attaining unto perfection of character. God's law is an exponent of His character, an expression of His holiness; but, viewed by him who was fallen thru sin, it is a voice of condemnation, a ministration of death. It is not in the province of the law to pardon the transgressor; for "by the law is the knowledge of sin." "By . . . the law there shall no sin be justified." No ray of hope shines forth from the law to the sinner, and its transgressor can find no answer from the law to his anxious inquiry, "What shall I do to be saved?" "How shall I be just with God?" {ST, July 3, 1907 par. 2}

The law of God is the expression of his character. God possesses absolute, invariable, and immutable independence, and his law is without variableness, unalterable, eternal, because it is the transcript of his character. No event can take place that will in any sense make it necessary to declare a law of a contrary nature. "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Any change in the law would mar its perfection. The slightest variance in its precepts would give reason to the hosts of heaven and to unfallen worlds to think that God's counsels and declarations are not to be relied upon, but need to be remodeled, because they are of a faulty character. Should any change be made in the law of God, Satan would gain that for which he had instituted controversy. {ST, March 12, 1896 par. 1}

The scribes and the Pharisees listened to the words of Christ, and decided that he was making light of the law. Instead of this he was showing them distinctly that the law must be enshrined in the heart, and revealed in the character. Outward conformity to the letter of the law was not sufficient. The very principles of the law must be planted in the heart, and love to God and love to man must be revealed in the character, words, and actions. Those who believe in Christ as their personal Saviour would have the faith that works by love, would manifest his Spirit and grace, and cooperate with him in educating and disciplining souls for his heavenly kingdom. In his own life he gave the world an example of what he meant by his sermon on the mount, for he kept his Father's commandments. He stripped from the holy precepts the human inventions and exactions with which men had covered up the true principles of the standard of righteousness. He showed the law of God to be holy, just, and good. He showed that it had power to convert the soul, and that it required from the human race a whole-hearted service to God and to man. Instead of depreciating the law, he showed that the commandments of God are the foundation of his kingdom, a reflection of the divine character. Those who were to be subjects of his kingdom were to reach a higher standard than that of the scribes and Pharisees. He presented the spirituality of the law, and said, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." His own life was a constant expression of the law of God, and he gave to his followers an example that they should walk in his steps. {ST, October 29, 1896 par. 5}

Christ lived in accordance with the principles of God's moral government, and fulfilled the specifications of the law of God. He represented the beneficence of the law in his human life. The fact that the law is holy, just, and good is to be testified before all nations, tongues, and peoples, to worlds unfallen, to angels, seraphim, and cherubim. The principles of the law of God were wrought out in the character of Jesus Christ, and he who co-operates with Christ, becoming a partaker of the divine nature, will develop the divine character, and become an illustration of the divine law. Christ in the heart will bring the whole man, soul, body, and spirit into captivity to the obedience of righteousness. Christ's true followers will be in conformity to the mind and will and character of God, and the far-reaching principles of the law will be demonstrated in humanity. {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 2}

Pardoning, redeeming love is brought to view in Christ Jesus. Satan had misrepresented the character of God, and it was necessary that a correct representation should be made to worlds unfallen, to angels, and to men. Satan had declared that God knew nothing of self-denial, of mercy and love, but that he was stern, exacting, and unforgiving. Satan never tested the forgiving love of God; for he never exercised genuine repentance. His representations of God were incorrect; he was a false witness, an accuser of Christ, and an accuser of all those who throw off the Satanic yoke, and come back to render willing allegiance to the God of heaven. {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 3}

Satan charged God with an unforgiving spirit, because he would not receive on terms of favor those who disobeyed his law and therefore misrepresented his character. But forgiveness of sins would be of no avail unless the course of transgression was abandoned, and the grace of Christ imparted to the sinner to renovate, purify, and ennoble him who had fallen by iniquity. This was the only way by which the sinner could be restored to divine favor, and trusted to come into copartnership with Jesus Christ. But in Christ we behold the character of the Father, and see the pitying tenderness which God exercised for fallen man, giving his only begotten Son as a ransom for the transgressors of the law. It is in beholding the love of God that repentance is awakened in the sinner's heart, and an earnest desire is created to become reconciled to God. When the transgressor becomes acquainted with God, and experiences his love, it produces in his heart a hatred for sin and a love for holiness. {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 4}

[teresaq]

it appears to be a problem of how it is read, which means either reading it in the light of "the law is a transcript of Gods character or unconsciously discarding or overriding that rule.

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks sky. I've read that, but it's been awhile. It was a good thing to post, as it's bringing out the points I was thinking about. It looks like we have a bit of scrambled egg. I think my idea that God's character is the chicken is correct, but since our view of God's character is shaped by factors such as the methodology we use in interpreting Scripture, of course that's an important factor.

Something helpful to bear in mind is that Christ's goal was the revelation God's character, so if our desire is to present God's character to others, and we want to know how to go about this, we can simply look to see what Christ did.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The law of God is the expression of his character. God possesses absolute, invariable, and immutable independence, and his law is without variableness, unalterable, eternal, because it is the transcript of his character. No event can take place that will in any sense make it necessary to declare a law of a contrary nature. "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Any change in the law would mar its perfection. The slightest variance in its precepts would give reason to the hosts of heaven and to unfallen worlds to think that God's counsels and declarations are not to be relied upon, but need to be remodeled, because they are of a faulty character. Should any change be made in the law of God, Satan would gain that for which he had instituted controversy. {ST, March 12, 1896 par. 1}

This is a point (in bold) that I've been trying to get at. Satan is the author of sin, and all its results, including:

a.Compelling power

b.Torture

c.Violence

It seems that if God needs to rely upon these items, which are the result of sin, which is, by definition, the transgression of the law, then this is tantamount to a remodeling of the law. This would imply that the law is of a faulty character, and by extension God.

We would have sin = transgression of the law ==> results (such as compelling power/torture/violence) ==> God makes use of these ==> law has been remodeled.

That is, making use of something which is the fruit of disobeying the law is remodeling the law.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: 3.Apparent contradictions (God appears to behave differently than Christ's portrait of God) are explained by the principle that God is often presented in Scripture as doing that which He permits.

There are many passages to establish each of these points. The author does an excellent job with this, so I won't repeat anything here.

With regards to the SOP, there are statements which speak directly to the issue, sometimes whole chapters, such as the case of the destruction of Jerusalem or what happened in France. There are also statements such as the following:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

That is not talking about the final destruction of the wicked. It is saying that people destroy themselves through their choices. We all know that. That is like saying about an executed criminal that he destroyed himself before the state took him to the gallows.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): God destroys no one. Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

That is the same as the COL 84. You have to read it in context and read other statements by Ellen White on the same subject. For instance, "God will destroy the sinner from off the earth" PP 110. Or: "The wicked he will destroy... God executes justice upon the wicked" GC 541.

In the above quote-- 5 T 120-- the rest of the statement is that "the sinner destroys himself." But she is obviously not saying the sinner burns himself up. Therefore, the statement in context is not referring to how the wicked die the second death. It is saying that the wicked are responsible for their own destruction, just like a criminal destroys himself long before the state executes him.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting) :God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The Great Controversy, 36.

This again is not about how the wicked die the second death. It is saying that God does not stand over man today, threatening to make a decree as an executioner; but the sinner himself is responsible for his own decisions as to what seeds he will sow and reap. She also says, "If we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have desroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love." SC 34.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

That is of the same nature as the others, just like the quote in SC 34, quoted above. It is not talking about the final destruction of the wicked.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

Same as before. It is not talking about the final destruction of the wicked but of the destruction that comes as a result of God's permitting Satan to work his will. Just before the Second Coming, God will allow Satan freedom to do what He wants with the wicked.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.

Again, it is not talking about the final destruction of the wicked. It is talking about God's permissive will in allowing Satan to work his will upon the wicked. Ellen White wrie a great deal about this, and the Bible as well.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:55, 56.

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. The Desire of Ages, 487.

The above is not talking about the final destruction of the wicked but of the reason Christ came to this earth. He came to save sinners, not destroy them. That is well known and well recongized by everyone.

That quote from DA 487 is not saying God possesses the "spirit of Satan" when He destroys the wicked or when He destroyed the world with a flood. It is not even talking about God but about people who would destroy others simply because they refuse to listen to them or believe what they say. IT IS NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT GOD. If you want to hear what she says about God, please read SG. vol. 4, page 50, 51. It has already been quoted.

Part of it says, "The Lord is regarded as cruel by many in requiring his people to make war with other nations. They say it is contrary to his benevolent character. But he who made the world and formed man to dwell upon the earth, has unlimited right to do as he pleases, and what he pleases with the work of his hands. Man has no right to say to his Maker, Why dost thou thus? There is no injustice in his character. He is the Ruler of the world, and a large portion of his subjects have rebelled against his authority, and have trampled upon his law... God has borne with them [the wicked] until they filled up the mesure of their iniquity, and then he has brought upon them swift destruction. He has used his people as instruments of his wrath, to punish wicked nations, who hae vexed them, and seduced them into idolatry."

The above is in the context of God commanding the Israelites to annihilate the wicked nations that lived in Palestine at the time the Israel caem to the Promised Land. She is saying God was right to have those people destroyed. Why? Because they have "rebelled against his authority, and have trampeld upon his law." This is certainly showing that God is not evil like the devil when he destroys the wicked for rebelling against God. After all, when Satan rebelled against God, he was expelled from heaven; and when Adam rebelled, he was driven out of Eden. Does that make God like Satan? Of course not. Therefore it is clear that DA 487 is not saying God is like Satan for punishing sinners with destruction at the end of the world.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting):Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. ibid., 759.

This is saying that unlike Satan, God does not use force to win His cause, or to defeat sin and Satan in the great controversy. God won the great controversy through the cross of Christ, through love, not by forcing people to accept Him. It is not saying God didn't force the wicked angels out of heaven or Adam out of Eden. Those things didn't overcome the rebellion of Satan. All God did was transfer the war to the earth and keep Adam from gaining access to the Tree of Life.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting):The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. ibid., 22.

This is saying the same thing as said in your previous quote, in DA 759. The context is the coming of Christ to the world to show God's character in contrast to the character of Satan. It is saying that God would not force the world to believe in Him or accept Him. It obviously has nothing to do with final destruction of the wicked. The destruction takes place AFTER the whole universe understands that God is right to destroy Satan and all His followers. It happens AFTER they see the evil of Satan's character.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting):Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.

This is in the context of the fact that Satan is the one who brings disease upon people whereas God is the one who heals and restores people. Again, it has nothing to do with whether God destroyed Sodom or the world by a flood, nor is it in the slightest related to the final destruction of the wicked.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner. 1 S.M.235.

Of course God is not waiting and looking forward to punishing the sinner. But that doesn't mean He won't punish sinners who persist in their rebellion. It simply means that God want to save people, not punish them. Everyone should know this already.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): When parents or rulers neglect to discipline their children God will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin. P.P.739.

This is actually on page 728, but it has nothing to do with the issue of the final destruction of the wicked.

It's in the context of the story of Absolem, David's rebellious son. It merely shows that God often allows people to reap the result of their sins. We all already recongize and agree with this. But again, it is unrelated to the main issue of the destruction of the wicked or God's use of force against Satan in heaven.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): Tradition and misinterpretation has obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. G.C.492.

Yes, of course, this is true, but it doesn't tell us anything about the final destruction of the wicked. It is not even related to the topic.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting):God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy. MS 17, 1906.

It would be good to know if this quote is in any source other than Ms. 17.

Everyone acknowledges that God often has destroyed sinners by allowing Satan and evil men to do the destroying. God will allow Satan full control over the wicked just before Christ returns. But again, it is not related to the final destruction of the wicked.

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting): He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience, for the cup of iniquity is full." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

Again, God will allow Satan to destroy, but it isn't telling us anything about the final destruction of the wicked. It is already well known that God often allows Satan to destroy.

Ellen White says destruction comes from two sources: from God's angels when He commands, and from the fallen angels when God permits. This is obviously when God commands the angels to permit Satan to destroy.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: So it's not just one statement.

But if you go back over each one,you will see that none of those quotes support the idea that God won't destroy the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. None of them are even dealing with that issue.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Here's a nice statement from S. N. Haskell:

While it was in harmony with worldly government, it was not, however, according to the principle of the heavenly government. Hence it is, that again, in the person of the Babylonian king, Satan is challenging the government of God. When Lucifer and his angels refused to bow before the throne of God, the Father would not then destroy them. They should live until death should come as a result of the course they pursued. The Babylonian king, however, threatened utter destruction to all who refused to worship his golden image. The motive power in the heavenly government is love; human power when exercised becomes tyranny. All tyranny is a repetition of the Babylonian principles. We sometimes call it papal; it is likewise Babylonian. When the civil power enforces worship of any sort, be that worship true or false in itself, to obey is idolatry. The command must be backed by some form of punishment,-a fiery furnace,-and the conscience of man is no longer free. From a civil standpoint, such legislation is tyranny, and looked at from a religious point of view, it is persecution. {1901 SNH, SDP 41.1}

This explains the issue well. If God threatens to set people on fire to burn for days if they do not worship Him, then "the conscience of man is no longer free."

The problem with the quote is that it doesn't deal with the issue of the final destruction of the wicked. All elder Haskell is saying is that God allowed Satan to live in order to prove his evil character.

Haskell believed that the wicked would be destroyed by God in fire at the end of the 1000 years. See his book, The Seer of Patmos, pp. 262, 336, 337. When Haskell writes about the death of the wicked, he says that "Fire comes down from God out of heaven, and devours them, and they become ashes upon the earth." "Then from his throne God breaths upon the assembled multitudes. Fire comes down from God out of heaven, and mingles with the fire which comes from the interior of the earth; and it devours them... The earth is cleansed by fire; sin, and all its blasting effects are destroyed. The controversy is ended."

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT HASKELL-- WHO YOU QUOTED TO SHOW THAT HE SUPPORTS YOUR VIEWPOINT-- ACTUALLY BELIEVED THAT GOD DESTROYS THE WICKED BY REAL FIRE. ELLEN WHITE CLEARLY AGREED WITH HIM.

[skyblue888]

John, nobody has said that the wicked won't be destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years. They will be and there is enough light revealed on this topic to know how God will destroy them. Read Ezekiel 28:6,10 again. The question is, What does the Bible mean when it says that "Fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them." Rev.20:9.

It is the same when we read that "Because they did not receive the love of the truth God will send them strong delusion that they may believe the lie." 2 Thess.2:11.

If I remember correctly, your answer to this is that sending strong delusion is not the same as sending fire to devour the wicked. Is that really a fair answer? What gives us the right to say that the strong delusions do not come directly from the Lord upon the wicked but the fire does?

May God have mercy on His people.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I am still wondering how one quote has been made the guiding principle above another, which states that Gods angels and evil angels destroy?

This is the key issue.

Why is this a "universal principle", upon who's authority has it been granted this "status"?

This idea that "God never destroys in an active role"...

It's not just one quote.

One can approach this from the basis of Scripture alone, or consider the SOP as well. From Scripture alone, the following is an excellent presentation: http://sinbearer.com/light_on_the_dark_side_of_god.htm

The basic approach is:

1.God has been misunderstood.

2.Christ revealed God as He really is.

3.Apparent contradictions (God appears to behave differently than Christ's portrait of God) are explained by the principle that God is often presented in Scripture as doing that which He permits.

There are many passages to establish each of these points. The author does an excellent job with this, so I won't repeat anything here.

With regards to the SOP, there are statements which speak directly to the issue, sometimes whole chapters, such as the case of the destruction of Jerusalem or what happened in France. There are also statements such as the following:

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

Quote:

God destroys no one. Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

Quote:

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The Great Controversy, 36.

Quote:

Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

Quote:

This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

Quote:

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.

Quote:

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:55, 56.

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. The Desire of Ages, 487.

Quote:

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. ibid., 759.

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. ibid., 22.

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Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.

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We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner. 1 S.M.235.

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When parents or rulers neglect to discipline their children God will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin. P.P.739.

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Tradition and misinterpretation has obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. G.C.492.

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God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy. MS 17, 1906.

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He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience, for the cup of iniquity is full." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

So it's not just one statement.

Here's a nice statement from S. N. Haskell:

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While it was in harmony with worldly government, it was not, however, according to the principle of the heavenly government. Hence it is, that again, in the person of the Babylonian king, Satan is challenging the government of God. When Lucifer and his angels refused to bow before the throne of God, the Father would not then destroy them. They should live until death should come as a result of the course they pursued. The Babylonian king, however, threatened utter destruction to all who refused to worship his golden image. The motive power in the heavenly government is love; human power when exercised becomes tyranny. All tyranny is a repetition of the Babylonian principles. We sometimes call it papal; it is likewise Babylonian. When the civil power enforces worship of any sort, be that worship true or false in itself, to obey is idolatry. The command must be backed by some form of punishment,-a fiery furnace,-and the conscience of man is no longer free. From a civil standpoint, such legislation is tyranny, and looked at from a religious point of view, it is persecution. {1901 SNH, SDP 41.1}

This explains the issue well. If God threatens to set people on fire to burn for days if they do not worship Him, then "the conscience of man is no longer free."

But what about the plain quotes that do not agree with your position Pnatt?

What of those, are you going to quote those as well my friend?

Or just those that you use to support this position?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Thanks sky. I've read that, but it's been awhile. It was a good thing to post, as it's bringing out the points I was thinking about. It looks like we have a bit of scrambled egg. I think my idea that God's character is the chicken is correct, but since our view of God's character is shaped by factors such as the methodology we use in interpreting Scripture, of course that's an important factor.

Something helpful to bear in mind is that Christ's goal was the revelation God's character, so if our desire is to present God's character to others, and we want to know how to go about this, we can simply look to see what Christ did.

Problem you have here Pnat, is that you might look at the Lamb and miss the Lion...

Question:

What causes the destruction of the wicked when Jesus comes (second coming)?

Mark :-)