"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Yes, and this principle must be applied to everything....Otherwise you get into the same error that the Jews got into....They expected a King who would kick some butt....Instead they got a King who would rather die, eternally, then take a life....

1) Christ did not come here as King, Judge or even as God. He came here in the form of a servant and to save and heal, not to judge. He came here as a Lamh of God, not as the King of Kings.

2) Christ chose to die rather than sin at all against God. It wasn't just a matter of his refusing to take a life; it was about obeying the Father's commandments perfectly, and He did it while living in sinful flesh, by the indwelling power of the Spirit.

3) Christ's kingdom was not of this world. He said that if this world was His kingdom, then his disciples would have used violence to defend Him.

4) It is a mistake to think that Christ's coming as the Lamb of God shows us that He will never destroy Satan and those who choose to follow the Devil. When He comes the second time as King of kings and Lord of lords, all of the wicked will be left dead on the earth. They will be eaten for supper and become manure in the earth. See Rev. 19: 11-21.

5) Jesus Christ came as our example and was subject to God's law just as all humans are. Therefore if, as a son of Adam, He had killed anyone, it would have been a sin. God, however, is above the law since He made it and it has no existence apart from Him. There is no law or authority or power above God, to whom He must give an account. That is why God as the Creator had the moral authority to order the Israelites to kill, and why He was right to destroy the earth with a flood.

[John317]

..so you can't use human reasoning when it comes to spiritual things....

All we know about the topic we're discussing is from revelation. We can't possibly know anything about it through reasoning, except as we reason from the Scriptures and from the Spirit of prophecy. Without them, we would not know the first thing about it.

This means that we must go by what God has revealed. And what He has revealed says that Satan was "thrown out," "expelled," "banished," and told by God that He must leave Heaven. God decreed that Satan and the evil angels were banished.

Human reasoning and wishful thinking might well deny it and say this is not true, but we have the clear testimony of the Spirit of God which tells us it's the truth. We're always better off going by what God has revealed rather than by our own ideas and wishes.

[Robert]

3) Christ's kingdom was not of this world. He said that if this world was His kingdom, then his disciples would have used violence to defend Him.

[SivartM]

There seems to be a war brewing in this thread... might it possibly be akin to the war that took place in heaven?

[Robert]

There seems to be a war brewing in this thread... might it possibly be akin to the war that took place in heaven?

We are sinners, Christ isn't....His ways are not our ways, nor His thoughts our thoughts.

[John317]

{SR 18.2}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before. Angels in heaven mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in heaven

White, E. G. (1947; 2002). The Story of Redemption (18). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Here Ellen White says that Satan and his sympathizers were "expelled from heaven." Question:

How would God have "expelled" the evil angels from heaven without compelling them to go?

"Expel" is the same as compel someone to go.

Consider:

The dictionary defines "expel" as "to force or drive out; eject forcefully." (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

This is exactly the idea found in Scripture.

[Robert]

"Expel" is the same as compel someone to go.

Consider:

The dictionary defines "expel" as "to force or drive out; eject forcefully." (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

This is exactly the idea found in Scripture.

You love violence, huh? You want a god in your image, after your likeness. Why?

[Robert]

Here Ellen White says that Satan and his sympathizers were "expelled from heaven."

Sorry, I need Bible....

As to being expelled, it doesn't imply force at all. God could have just thought Lucifer and His angels to this world. God couldn't allow Lucifer to develop his u-turn agape in heaven or heaven would have been like this world.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Here's the problem as I see it: you are saying that Satan didn't have to leave but that he left of his own accord, willingly.

I guess I missed that section of Revelation 12.

[Robert]

This means that we must go by what God has revealed.

Spiritual things are spiritually made known....Some go with human characteristics.

Rob

[BobRyan]

Sorry, I need Bible....

Been there... Done that...

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post326955

No takers so far.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

So consistent with Rev 12, and Rev 19 and Rev 20

One thing I have noticed about many SDA....They heavily quote EGW and Revelation. Ellen White, not being Bible, and Revelation, which is highly interpretative, leads to such things as the Waco nuts....In other words you can make it say anything you want....

[Gerr]

There seems to be a war brewing in this thread... might it possibly be akin to the war that took place in heaven?

WAR? NO way, Jose. I mean SivartM.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Here's an explanation or Rev. 12 by EGW:

Quote:

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761)

This has been quoted several times on this thread.

The DA chapter is too long to post here. I suggest everyone interested in this thread to read it for themselves. Her quoting of Rev 12:10 and this DA chapter "it is finished" have nothing to do with how the war in heaven was fought in Rev 12:7. Check it out.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

3) Christ's kingdom was not of this world. He said that if this world was His kingdom, then his disciples would have used violence to defend Him.

"Love not the world"....When Christ says of this world, He means under its principle, iniquity. The way of this world is the love of self manifested in violence, fits of rage, etc. If Christ were of this world (acts like humans do) He would fight....

Jesus said this in John 18: 36. This earth is not yet Christ's kingdom. Daniel 7: 14 speaks of the time when this world becomes His kingdom.

What will Christ do when this earth becomes His kingdom? Rev. 19: 11-21 describes the scene. Also 2 Thess. 1: 7-10; 2: 8-10.

"... when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He coms to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed."

[Robert]

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord..."

Here's another version: "These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, [how?] separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his mighty...."

That's back to the principle:

Deuteronomy 31:17 ... I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

So consistent with Rev 12, and Rev 19 and Rev 20

One thing I have noticed about many SDA....They heavily quote EGW and Revelation. Ellen White, not being Bible, and Revelation, which is highly interpretative, leads to such things as the Waco nuts....In other words you can make it say anything you want....

This is one reason Satan inspires people to do things like they did at Waco, so other people will shy away from studying Revelation. He influences people against Christianity that way. They think, "Oh, there goes another nut stuyding and quoting Revelations. That book can be made to say any thing. It's ridiculous to believe it contains true prophecies."

In order to understand Daniel and Revelation or any other Scripture, we need help of the same Holy Spirit that inspired the prophets to write it. God wants us to study the writings of Ellen White and the entire Bible, not excluding Revelation. The only way anyone can make it say anything they want is by not following valid priciples of exegesis or interpretation. David Koresh didn't do this, of course.

If the Waco nuts' reading of Revelation makes you feel less confident in it, it would be a good thing to consider that they also read the Gospels and the letters of Paul and the books of Moses. But the fact that they read Revelation shouldn't affect anyone else's reading of the Bible. That's letter the "Waco nuts" have too much power over you. Don't let them influence you or your view of any part of the Scripture.

[Robert]

"These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, [how?] separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his mighty...."

There's two ways to look at this:

1) The 2nd death causes eternal separation

or

2] The separation causes eternal death.

The last one is how God took care of the sin problem through Christ:

"Strike the shepherd"

How did God do this?

"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?"

Jesus' death was the result of God's separation....

[Robert]

This is exactly why Satan inspired people to do things like they did at Waco, so other people will shy away from studying Revelation.

Really, did Satan show you his plans, or is this your own biased opinion? Why not get out of the vague and get into the light....Revelation must be understood in the light of scripture (Paul, John, James, etc....)

[Robert]

9 And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against them; and he departed. 10 And the cloud removed from over the Tent; and, behold, Miriam was leprous, as [white as] snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

God partially abandons Miriam and she becomes diseased. That tells me God holds diseases back, but when He departs (in this case partially) what He was holding back takes over....God is not the author of death and diseases.

Anyway, God didn't kick some butt and throw Lucifer out of heaven. The war was one of thought/ideas....Agape vs. the love of self....When Lucifer decided to take heaven by force God simply removed him....He didn't hurt Lucifer or his angels....They were not allowed to develop sin in heaven.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord..."

Here's another version: "These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, [how?] separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his mighty...."

The word "separated" has been added by the translator. There is no word for it in that verse. It literally reads, "These will suffer justice-- eternal destruction from the face of the Lord." It's true of course that those who are destroyed will be eternally separated from God.

Quote:

That's back to the principle:

Deuteronomy 31:17 ... I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured.

I agree with your association of the quote from Deuteronomy. That is the worst of punishments, to be separate from God eternally.

The point I was making is that when Christ comes the second time, the righteous will go to be eternally with Christ while the wicked will perish and be left dead on the face of the earth. They are destroyed by the brightness of His coming. 2 Thess. 2: 8-10 says that when Christ returns He will slay the "lawless one" and bring him and the other wicked to an end.

Many people believe that Christ won't really do this because they think of Him as too kind and loving to punish and destroy the wicked. They misunderstand the meaning and nature of Christ's love.

[pnattmbtc]

The DA chapter is too long to post here. I suggest everyone interested in this thread to read it for themselves. Her quoting of Rev 12:10 and this DA chapter "it is finished" have nothing to do with how the war in heaven was fought in Rev 12:7. Check it out.

[Guest]

Robert, no offence, but John knows more about Revelation already, than you ever will in your lifetime probably. No offence. I'm over at my sister's but now I'm headed home. Later

[pnattmbtc]

Many people believe that Christ won't really do this because they think of Him as too kind and loving to punish and destroy the wicked. They misunderstand the meaning and nature of Christ's love.

[John317]

God in His wisdom did not use measures of force to suppress Satan's rebellion. Such measures would have aroused sympathy for Satan, strengthening his rebellion rather than lessening his power. If God had at the outset punished his rebellion, many more would have looked upon him as one who had been dealt with unjustly, and would have followed his example. It was necessary for him to have time and opportunity to develop his false principles. There was war in heaven, and the Prince of life overcame the apostate. Satan was cast out of heaven, with the angels who had united with him. {ST, July 23, 1902 par. 7}

Notice that in the above quote, Ellen White simultaneously says that God did not use force to suppress Satan's rebellion and that God cast Satan and his angels out of heaven.

This shows that she did not view Satan's "casting out" as a suppression of Satan's rebellion. What happened at that point was simply that Satan's rebellion was transferred to this earth. God did not win the great controversy by means of force. God won it through the demonstration of love and righteoussness in the life, death, and resurrection of His only Son.

Notice also that Ellen White says, "If God had at the outset punished his rebellion..." This is an extremely important phrase. It shows that God will one day punish Satan for his rebellion, and that God delayed the day of punishment until the universe would be able to see Satan's true chararcter. That punishment is described in Rev. 20; 21: 8; 2 Peter 2: 9, 12, 13, 17; 3: 7. In Matt. 25: 41, Jesus Himself said that "eternal fire has been prepared for the devil and his angels," and that those who follow Satan will be punished in that same fire. Ellen White describes it in GC 673, where she says, "His [satan's] punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived." Then she describes Satan's destruction, and she says that once Satan is destroyed, "The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah."

One does not get the impression here that Ellen White taught that if God used force and destroyed Satan and the wicked, it would mean God is the same as Satan. On the contrary, she says that the whole universe will finally declare the righteousness of God when they witness the end of sin and Satan.

Quote:

TERESAQ(SDA)]: so if God didnt use force, then how did He get satan to leave, (remembering that God is using our human language to communicate with us, but He does not think like us)?

It doesn't say that God didn't use force to expel Satan and the evil angels from heaven.

The Bible says Satan was "thrown out" or "cast out" and Ellen White says that he was "expelled." The latter word is defined as "to drive out by force" (Webster's New World Dictionary). She also says that God "decreed" that Satan was "banished" from Heaven. I've never heard of anyone being banished from a place where they didn't want to be anyway. That's a further indication that Satan wanted to stay in heaven. Therefore it was necessary for God to expel Satan. I don't see any way around this conclusion.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Hence the question whether someone who discovers that God used force to compel Satan to leave heaven would decide to worship Satan rather than God.

Quote:

TERESAQ [sDA]: if satan uses force and God uses force then they would be the same.

I don't see it that way at all. The Bible plainly says that God does sometimes use force.

I offer the following examples:

Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2: 4 show that God forced the fallen angels to do certain things.

2 Peter 2: 4 says that God sent [lit. "cast out" or "thrust down"] the fallen angels to hell [Gk. tartaroo]. NASB reads, "cast them into hell."

This verse also uses the word, tereo, which means "to guard, to keep in custody." It is also used in Acts 12: 5 and 16: 23 where it refers to prisoners under guard.

Here in 2 Peter 2: 4, it is translated "to store up, reserve." Thus, God "committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment" (NASB). The NIV reads, "to be held." The same word is used with the same meaning in 2 Peter 2: 9, 17.

Jude 6 says of the fallen angels that God "has kept [them] in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

The word "bound" is translated from the Greek noun, desmos (Strong's #1199), and has reference to anything by which one is bound. It refers to imprisonment in Luke 8: 29; Acts 16: 26; 20: 23.

I think it's significant that the same word, desmos, is also used in Rev. 20: 3, 7 in reference to Satan being imprisoned during the 1000 years. During that time Satan and his evil angels are compelled to remain on the desolate earth. This is a clear example of the fact that God sometimes uses force.

Finally, there's the fact that the Bible shows God has often forced the demons to come out of people who seek God's deliverance. See Mark 1: 25, 26; Acts 16: 18 (Notice that Acts 19: 16 speaks of "the man in whom was the evil spirit.") My point here is simply that the spirits are not free to do whatever they wish but must obey God's will when He compels them. For instance, they resist leaving their victims but they have no choice but to obey Christ.

Quote:

but it doesnt necessarily follow that someone would choose to worship satan bacause they couldnt worship a god who is just like satan. an example of this are the many who can not worship a god who would torture people for eternity in hell. but they dont usually say, so i will worship satan instead.

Everyone is either controlled by God or under the control and influence of Satan. If a person does not choose to worship God, whether they realize or not, they are servants of Satan.

The fact that God forced Satan to leave heaven does not put God in the same category with the great Adversary of souls. If one believes what the Bible says on this topic, it does not mean that one believes Satan's accusations against God are right and that God is like Satan. If this were not true, it would mean that virtually the entire SDA church, as well as Ellen White, believed that Satan was right about God. For she and the entire church believed (and the vast majority of SDAs continue to believe) that God literally destroyed the earth with a flood and that God literally expelled Satan and the evil angels from heaven.