"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[wayfinder]

Revelation 12:8,9 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world ; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

When Satan lost the war in heaven, there was no longer a place for him there. Satan was cast to the earth, because there continued to be a place for him here. When the great war on earth is fought and won by the kingdom of God, then there will no longer be a place found for Satan and all the unrighteous with him. It is at this time the God kills with the second death after the one thousand years.

Daniel 8:12 NAS

And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice ; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper

The truth is to be proclaimed throughout the world during the great tribulation, Satan tries hard to prevent this, and this is what the war on earth is. It would appear that this is what the war in heaven was all about also.

[BobRyan]

The facinating thing is that the force against force - strength against strength that

we see in Rev 12 - described accurately as "WAR in heaven" where the devil and his angels are "cast out" -- fits perfectly with the WAR context

we see in Rev 19 when Christ appears at His second coming and all the commanders of the armies of earth (and presumably including the armies of the "god of this world" 2Cor 4) -- and also fits the WAR context that

we see in Rev 20 when "once again" the "god of this world" takes a stand against God the Son.

In all cases - force is used.

Hence the "strenght against strength" description we see here -

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post326873

So consistent with Rev 12, and Rev 19 and Rev 20

(Notice how I did not need the tired old "you dirty rotten SDA.." invectives to make the point above?)

[Guest]

Don't hold back Bob.....

[BobRyan]

Richard - you want me to whip out one of those "as it turns out" conclusions?

[Guest]

Yes I do.....

[John317]

JOHN3:17: "Expel" is the same as compel someone to go.

Consider:

The dictionary defines "expel" as "to force or drive out; eject forcefully." (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

This is exactly the idea found in Scripture.

Quote:

ROBERT: You love violence, huh? You want a god in your image, after your likeness. Why?

This is not about what "I want" or about what "you want," Rob. It is about what the Scriptures teach and about the Truth.

If God revealed-- as He obviously did-- that He "threw out" and "expelled" Satan from heaven, that does not mean that He's wrong and Satan is right. Nor does it make God the same as Satan.

It's not a matter, either, of loving violence. But it does mean that I will be happy when all sin and Satan are no more. I don't hide the fact that I'll be glad to see Rev. 21 and 22 fulfilled.

[Robert]

Again, was there a fist fight...were the angels using kung fu? were there weapons involved? is there a record of blood shed? War is not always violence.

[Robert]

Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was the child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems. 4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child. 5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

Revelation is full of symbology and metaphors. If there was actually "war in heaven" then Satan is actually a red dragon with seven heads. Also, instead of the meek and mild Jesus, He ruled all nations with a rod of iron. I can't find this concept in my Bible.

Like I said, you can make Revelation say anything you want because of the symbolism.

Rob

[Gerr]

Again, was there a fist fight...were the angels using kung fu? were there weapons involved? is there a record of blood shed? War is not always violence.

You are asking a question for which no definitive answer is given in Scripture. So everyone is free to speculate. One thing for sure, the language of war even if symbolic does not give room for the idea of a friendly persuasion or a voluntary exit!!!

[Gerr]

The DA chapter "It is Finished" is NOT a commentary on Rev 12 although she quotes verse 10!!!

[pnattmbtc]

Why do you think she says that Satan was cast down at this point? Why do you think Jesus Christ said the same thing? Why do you suppose she says that compelling power is only to be found in the government of Satan? What does this mean?

[Gerr]

Why do you think she says that Satan was cast down at this point?

Good question. How many times was Satan thrown out of heaven? I believe there are at least two.

1. When his rebellion broke into active open revolt and resulted in that "war in heaven" in Rev 12.

But as DA 758.2 says, "Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion." So there were still some questions that remained un-answered in the minds of many of the loyal angels. These questions were answered at the Cross.

2. When Satan was unmasked by his behavior at the Cross, and the principle of his government was fully revealed to the onlooking universe, any vestige of sympathy, any lingering doubt about Lucifer was "cast down" or "cast out". This is what EGW was referring to in this chapter and not the casting out of heaven in #1.

Quote:

Why do you think Jesus Christ said the same thing?

Are you referring to this statement?

Luke 10:18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

I don't believe Jesus' statement is referring to the "war" in heaven. Lucifer "fell" from heaven when he aspired to God's throne, Isa 14:12-14. He also fell as a result of his defeat in the war in heaven. He also fell from whatever remnant of favor any beings in the universe may have harbored after they saw what he really was in his conflict with Christ.

Quote:

Why do you suppose she says that compelling power is only to be found in the government of Satan? What does this mean?

I gave you several references where God does not use force:

1. God does not use force to gain allegiance.

2. God does not use force to make people behave.

3. God does not use force to overpower the will.

4. God does not use force in the work of redemption.

5. God does not use force to compel the conscience.

6. God never uses force to bring men to Christ.

7. God does not use coercion to present the truth.

8. God does not coerce man's will.

In contrast, Satan uses force to accomplish all that God would not do above.

Did Christ use force to drive demons out from demon-possessed people?

[pnattmbtc]

Good question. How many times was Satan thrown out of heaven? I believe there are at least two.

1. When his rebellion broke into active open revolt and resulted in that "war in heaven" in Rev 12.

But as DA 758.2 says, "Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion." So there were still some questions that remained un-answered in the minds of many of the loyal angels. These questions were answered at the Cross.

2. When Satan was unmasked by his behavior at the Cross, and the principle of his government was fully revealed to the onlooking universe, any vestige of sympathy, any lingering doubt about Lucifer was "cast down" or "cast out". This is what EGW was referring to in this chapter and not the casting out of heaven in #1.

[Robert]

The word "separated" has been added by the translator. There is no word for it in that verse. It literally reads, "These will suffer justice-- eternal destruction from the face of the Lord."

Maybe...maybe not, but doesn't matter because the idea is the same....

[Robert]

Everyone is either controlled by God or under the control and influence of Satan. If a person does not choose to worship God, whether they realize or not, they are servants of Satan.

Then you should be sinless...you should perfectly reflect the agape of Christ....So are you under Satan's control?

[Robert]

Hmmm "I need the Bible" but -- "Not THAT Bible" when you see that Revelation is not helping you make your case either??

Revelation is place folks go and hide so they can create their own theology....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Again, was there a fist fight...were the angels using kung fu? were there weapons involved? is there a record of blood shed? War is not always violence.

You are asking a question for which no definitive answer is given in Scripture. So everyone is free to speculate. One thing for sure, the language of war even if symbolic does not give room for the idea of a friendly persuasion or a voluntary exit!!!

So God fights...He compels...He forces???

[John317]

Again, was there a fist fight...were the angels using kung fu? were there weapons involved? is there a record of blood shed? War is not always violence.

These are foolish questions.

Of course war is not always violence. There are propaganda wars and wars of ideas. We all know this, but there are clear statements showing that in the case of the war in heaven, there was force used to expel Satan from heaven. It is not necessary to know all the details about the war in order to realize that force was used to expel or "throw them out" of heaven.

This is different from using force to overcome the rebellion. God simply transferred the rebellion from heaven to earth.

But the following prove that God does use force at times:

1) 2 Peter 2: 4: "God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [tartarus] and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment." Compare verses 5 and 6.

2) Jude 6 says that God has kept the fallen angels in eternal chains under gloomy dakness until the judgment of the great day.

NOTE: In whatever way these verses are interpreted, they signify that God has used force against the fallen angels.

3) Rev. 20: 3, 7 say that God will force the fallen angels to remain on the desolate earth during the 1000 years.

4) God forces the demons (evil angels) to come out of people who are possessed. That is a use of force. They do not want to leave but God compels them to leave by means of His superior power.

5) The Bible also says that God did not allow Satan to kill Job. That is probably true in regard to many people, who would no doubt be killed by Satan if he had the freedom to do it. It shows that the evil angels can only do that which God permits them to do.

6) Finally, Rev. 20: 9 (together with GC 673) shows that God will send fire down from heaven and consume the wicked, including Satan and the evil angels.

NOTE: While you do not believe this last verse is to be taken literally, yet nevertheless the verse proves that God uses force against the evil angels. He forces them to receive judgment and justice. It's God's decision to put an end to all sin and sinners in the earth, just as God decreed that Satan and the fallen angels could no longer remain in heaven.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

david was not allowed to build a house for the Lord because he was a man of war, even tho it was God Who had ordained those wars....or so we believe.

It wasn't that God was opposed to all the wars of David but that David got to the point where he loved killing so that he murdered many of them.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Again, was there a fist fight...were the angels using kung fu? were there weapons involved? is there a record of blood shed? War is not always violence.

These are foolish questions.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert:Again, was there a fist fight...were the angels using kung fu? were there weapons involved? is there a record of blood shed? War is not always violence.

J:These are foolish questions.

Not at all. They bring out the problems of the position being asserted that the war was decided by force. They're good questions, as they bring out that it doesn't make sense to consider the war in heaven as one decided by force. For one thing, the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government. Compelling power is only to be found under Satan's government. So where would the force have come from?

For another, the war simply isn't one that can be won by force.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Again, was there a fist fight...were the angels using kung fu? were there weapons involved? is there a record of blood shed? War is not always violence.

These are foolish questions.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John

Robert:Again, was there a fist fight...were the angels using kung fu? were there weapons involved? is there a record of blood shed? War is not always violence.

J:These are foolish questions.

Not at all. They bring out the problems of the position being asserted that the war was decided by force. They're good questions, as they bring out that it doesn't make sense to consider the war in heaven as one decided by force. For one thing, the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government. Compelling power is only to be found under Satan's government. So where would the force have come from?

For another, the war simply isn't one that can be won by force.

The only thing that doesn't make sense, is that you refuse to take the Bible as it reads, like God's prophet has told you to.

[Robert]

take the Bible as it reads

Okay, let's do just this:

Click here

Ex 4:11 Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

[Robert]

Quote:

take the Bible as it reads

Click, but only if you can handle it....

Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.