"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

Everybody's a legalist.

No, but you and Gerry and John...I'm probably leaving someone out (sorry if I left your name out) are subtle legalists....You think you are keeping the law and then once in a while you sin. You can't see that you are never without sin even though you are growing.

[Robert]

BTW, your theology makes monsters....John, same to you....

[Robert]

Back to justice:

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Everybody's a legalist.

No, but you and Gerry and John...I'm probably leaving someone out (sorry if I left your name out) are subtle legalists....You think you are keeping the law and then once in a while you sin. You can't see that you are never without sin even though you are growing.

Thanks for telling me what I think. I'm glad you're not *cough* judgmental *cough* anymore.

[teresaq]

that isnt judgmental. just cause we dont know we are sinning doesnt mean we arent. it may mean that God hasnt revealed it to us yet, or we straightup dont want to know.

i fit in both camps sometime. :)

[teresaq]

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I God give you total free will, but if you choose Satan, I'll kill you....

Hmmm?

That's a perversion of what the Bible says. Here is what it says:

Prov 8:36 but he who fails to find me injures himself; all who hate me love death.”

he wasnt paraphrasing the bible.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnat

Secondly, "may have right to the tree of life" could be seen as symbolic, meaning "may have eternal life" or "live eternally."

Thirdly "may enter into the gates of the city" may also be seen as symbolic as "may enter into heaven."

You can make it all symbolic if you want to, but you will be wrong in your understanding. I've noticed that you do that quite a bit. You spiritualize away anything you think the Bible shouldn't be saying according to your beliefs. I've even seen you do it with Ellen White, where she departs from what you believe. And Ellen White doesn't speak in symbols.

really now? how interesting....

Jesus is the source of power, the fountain of life. He brings us to His word, and from the tree of life presents to us leaves for the healing of sin-sick souls. He leads us to the throne of God, and puts into our mouth a prayer through which we are brought into close contact with Himself. In our behalf He sets in operation the all-powerful agencies of heaven. At every step we touch His living power. {AA 478.2}

To study it is to eat the leaves of the tree of life. Nothing is more uplifting to God's servants than to teach the Scriptures just as Christ taught them. The Word of God contains divine nourishment, which satisfies the appetite for spiritual food.--Letter 17, 1902. {Ev 138.4}

thats just a couple. there are more.

[teresaq]

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This is really extremely poor logic. Do you think discussing things with people who use extremely poor logic is a waste of time? (My reason for asking this question is to point out that making statements that it's a "waste of time" to discuss things with certain people may be an opinion better left to oneself).

You are a relatively newcomer to the forum. You have no idea how many threads and weeks and months were spent discussing those issues.

I have no desire to rehash them all over again. If that amounts to poor logic, so be it.

yet here you are, yet again. :)

[teresaq]

When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished.

[teresaq]

Not a judgement, just an observation.

And no, you haven't seen me do the same thing. If you have an example of me making something symbolic, that you thought should be literal, please show it.

[Guest]

BTW, your theology makes monsters....John, same to you....

I'm so glad you quit being judgmental. That must have really been rough.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

BTW, your theology makes monsters....John, same to you....

I'm so glad you quit being judgmental. That must have really been rough.

You become what you believe God is....If you think He is above His own law, then you too will play the hypocrite....As Jesus said,

"They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God."

[Robert]

We need to deal with this conundrum:

Ex 12:29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

Ez 18:20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Pharaoh sinned...he wouldn't let Israel go, but instead of Pharaoh dying his firstborn took the punishment. The same with King David. He sinned, but the child took the punishment. Why?

[pnattmbtc]

PS

Anyway, here's a quote for you to consider:

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC88 614.2}

[pnattmbtc]

R:Not a judgement, just an observation.

And no, you haven't seen me do the same thing. If you have an example of me making something symbolic, that you thought should be literal, please show it.

p:It wasn't my point that there are things that you believe are symbolic which *I* think are literal, but that others (could be anyone) think are literal. For example, you think that "heart" is not literal, but Mark disagrees.

R:I don't spiritualize the word heart. It refers to a literal part of the body. We have been shown not only with scripture, Prov 23:7, but by the pen of inspiration that it is the center, or heart of the being, which is the mind.

This is your opinion. Others have a different opinion. You consider some things not literal which other people consider literal. You also consider something things literal which others consider not literal.

Virtually everyone does what you suggested before, which is to take what in the Bible can be taken literally if common sense doesn't dictate otherwise. But people differ as to what common sense dictates. For example, on the heart issue, you and I agree that common sense dictates that "heart" is not literal. However, we apparently disagree on the "dwell" issue. I think common sense dictates that Christ does not literally dwell in our hearts.

[pnattmbtc]

You can make it all symbolic if you want to, but you will be wrong in your understanding. I've noticed that you do that quite a bit. You spiritualize away anything you think the Bible shouldn't be saying according to your beliefs. I've even seen you do it with Ellen White, where she departs from what you believe. And Ellen White doesn't speak in symbols.

I missed this last sentence, until teresaq brought it up. Early Writings is full of symbols. In a famous vision, she presented Satan as in heaven, in the holy place, breathing an unholy influence on those who have not followed Christ into the most holy place. She was taken to task by some for this, who asked what Satan was doing in heaven.

[Guest]

What you did here pnatt, is commit second degree plagiarism. You attributed my quote to Twilight.

Quote:

Reply by moderator:

The Quote has been edited so that it is now attributed to you.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Did you really want to claim that quote? :)

[John317]

The Bible says that God killed Saul.

You raise a reasonable point here.

The Bible says in one place that God put Saul to death (2 Chron. 10: 14), yet in another place it states that Saul was killed by his own sword. 1 Sam. 31: 4; 1 Chron. 10: 4.

We may be sure that the writer of 1 Chronicles is not contradicting himself, because the two explanations are within only a few verses of each other, both being made by the same writer. Saul committed suicide after being defeated in battle, but God Himself was the efficient cause of both Saul's defeat in battle and his decision to commit suicide. Notice that this occurred after Saul had made his choice to turn away from God and after God had already rejected him. In PP 683, Ellen White explains that Saul was "rejected by God and abandoned to destruction: 'Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familar spirit, to inquire of it; and inquired not of the Lord: therefore He slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.' 1 Chron. 10: 13, 14."

(There's an interesting, additional explanation of the way Saul died, in 2 Sam 1: 10, where it's written that an Amalekite took credit for killing Saul after he saw Saul "leaning on his spear." Some have supposed that Saul was still alive after he had attempted suicide with his own sword, and that he asked this man to put him out of his misery before he could be captured by the Philistines. But Ellen White says that the Amalekite lied because he wrongly thought that David would reward him for having killed Saul. He died for his lie to the new king. As bad as Saul had been to David, David honored him because Saul was the anointed of the Lord, and therefore he'd had no wish for Saul to be killed. David's mourning for Saul was genuine. PP 695.)

Conclusion:

This is a good illustration of the fact that the Bible sometimes attributes to God things that happen because of His permissive will rather than His active will. It is quite true that God did not personally and literally take the sword and thrust it into Saul's body, but God knew ahead of time what would be the sure result of His abandonment of Saul. It cannot be denied that it was God's will for Saul to die at that time. In the final analysis, then, Saul's death was not by his own hand but by the hand of God. It shows how God achieves his purposes without violating the free will of individuals. It was Saul's choice to disobey and reject God, and it was consequently God's will that Saul die and be replaced by the Lord's loyal servant, David.

The reason that people are wrong who consider this illustration a principle that should be applied to situations like the throwing out of Satan from heaven is that both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy contain explanations which show it was God's permissive will which determined Saul's fate. The narrative itself makes clear that God didn't literally kill Saul in the sense that God put the sword through his body. This is quite different from the situation where Satan was thrown out of heaven. In the latter case, the book of Revelation is clear that after Satan resisted God's decree that Satan was banished from Heavem, he was finally "thrown out," or "expelled." We not only have overwhelmsing evidence of this from the books of Revelation, 2 Peter, and Jude, but we have the clear statements of Ellen White, that Satan resisted God's decree and afterwards was "expelled." Unlike the case of Saul's death, which shows that Saul was allowed to kill himself of his own accord, there's no biblical evidence to support the view that Satan and the evil angels left heaven except by force. If anyone could produce clear statements from either the Bible or the SOP that God "permitted" Satan to leave rather than throwing him out of heaven, then the case for Satan's willing or voluntary departure would be very strong indeed. But as shown in previous posts on this thread, no such evidence has been produced. It's a mistake to take an event such as occurred in 1 Samuel and extrapolate from it a general principle which is applied in all cases where God is portrayed as taking an active role in salvation-history, as if God's acts always spring from His persmissive will and never from his active will.

I would invite anyone to try to explain the death of the Egyptians in the Red Sea in a way that shows it happened as a result of God's permissive will rather than His active will. Show, in other words, that God did not destroy the Egyptians in the waters that He had divided for the Israelites to pass over. See Exodus 14: 13-31. Remember that the explanation must account for, and make sense of, all the information that we're given in the text. I don't think it can be done but I am willing to seriously consider it and will change my mind if it can be shown that God didn't kill, or destroy, the Egyptians.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I'm so glad you quit being judgmental. That must have really been rough.

You become what you believe God is....If you think He is above His own law, then you too will play the hypocrite....As Jesus said,

"They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God."

Ellen White herself says that the pre-incarnate Christ alone could come and die for our sins because He was above the law. He became subject to law as a human being but as God, prior to becoming flesh, He was above law. Her point is that angels are themselves subject to the law of God and therefore could not have died for sinners. They are not absolutely perfect, being creatures, but since Christ is God in the fullest sense, He is absolutely perfect. Therefore, His blood [life] alone could pay the penalty of mankind's sins and set us right with God.

If you think about it, I believe you will have to conclude that the Creator is above that which He creates. God and Christ created all things, and that includes the moral and physical laws of the universe. They [the laws] are what they are because of who God is. In fact, God is the Law, just as He is Love. God is not a being but is Being-itself. The law is not above God, and neither is it equal to Him. He isn't accountable to law.

God is consistent and always fulfills His own law, because the law procedes from His very nature, but what people forget is that the Ten Commandments are written for mankind, to meet man in his condition. They are not written for, and neither do they apply to, God. For instance, God can take life, but He cannot murder. Nor can God commit adultery or worship false gods or steal what doesn't belong to Him. That's because the entire universe belongs to Him. And since God is the Creator of the laws of the universe, whatever He does must be right. He cannot possibly lie because His word is creative power and therefore whatever He says comes to pass. In other words, God, unlike humans, does not study a law in order to decide what He should do.

Believing Christ is above the law doesn't make people play the hypocrite unless they think they themselves are God. It's much different saying God is above the law than saying humans are above the law. No human being is above the moral law. That is what I've been saying all along. I thought you were the one who thinks that faith in Christ frees believers from the necessity of obeying God's law. Do you still believe this?

[Robert]

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He became subject to law as a human being but as God, prior to becoming flesh, He was above law.

First of all "under law" means under its jurisdiction. Since Christ assumed our fallen life under the curse, Christ came under the curse so that He might redeem those under the curse. Before that Christ was God and "God is [agape]". Since "[Agape] is the fulfillment of the law" it is logical to deduce that "God is the fulfillment of the law" meaning He is His law...He is agape. It's not an additional attribute...it's who He is.

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He isn't accountable to law.

So God can sin?

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what people forget is that the Ten Commandments are written for mankind, to meet man in his condition.

That's because the law didn't exist before the fall. If you could have asked an angel, "what's sin?" they wouldn't have a clue. Their natures where in complete harmony with the principle of agape.

Remember that "agape fulfills the law". Anything done must be done by agape or it is sin. Now it is true that "you shall not commit adultery" doesn't apply to God or angels because they are sexless. But you shall not kill and you shall not covet and you shall not steal do....

It is true that everything is God's, but not sin.....Satan has ruined this world. He claims it to be His own. And Jesus didn't correct Satan on this point because originally God gave dominion over to Adam and he handed over to Lucifer.

[Robert]

God knew ahead of time what would be the sure result of His abandonment of Saul.

[Robert]

I would invite anyone to try to explain the death of the Egyptians in the Red Sea in a way that shows it happened as a result of God's permissive will rather than His active will. Show, in other words, that God did not destroy the Egyptians in the waters that He had divided for the Israelites to pass over. See Exodus 14: 13-31. Remember that the explanation must account for, and make sense of, all the information that we're given in the text. I don't think it can be done but I am willing to seriously consider it and will change my mind if it can be shown that God didn't kill, or destroy, the Egyptians.

No, you never answered my question. The Bible states that the soul who sins will die. David, after committing adultery, didn't die...his son did. Why?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

God knew ahead of time what would be the sure result of His abandonment of Saul.

Now wait, don't make God the heavy. Let's define agape, again. Agape is a love that is not self-seeking. It does not force...it does not coerce.

Never, any way? Didn't God force Adam and Eve to leave the Garden of Eden? Doesn't He force the Devil to remain on this desolate earth during the 1000 years?

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Saul's rejection of God was finalized when he went to the Medium. Since Saul rejected God, God removed Himself from Saul's life If not God would be forcing Himself on Saul and that would be sin.

We're in fundamental agreement here. There's a fine line between God's doing everything He can to draw us to Him by His Spirit and "forcing Himself" on people. I think God does influence people but He doesn't force them to believe in Him or accept Him. God respects our freedom too much to do that. You are right that there came a point where Saul was settled into rebellion, and evidently that point was when he went to the witch. It was at that point that God rejected Saul. Once He withdrew from Saul, God knew that Saul would die. In fact,so did Satan. If Satan knew, we can be sure that God knew.

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Sure God knew that if Saul rejected Him that trouble would come, but that wasn't God's fault...it was clearly Saul's.

No, I'm not faulting God in the sense you are evidently thinking of. When I say what I did above, I don't believe I'm saying anything evil or negative about God. I don't think God is "bad" if, or rather since, He knew ahead of time what would be the result of His abandonment of Saul. I don't see how He could not have known. Similarly when people are settled permenantly into rebellion against God, He knows what the final result is going to be: eternal death. In the case of Saul, God knew this too, and He also doubtless knew that Saul would perish in battle. This doesn't make God evil, as far as I'm concerned.

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JOHN3:17: It cannot be denied that it was God's will for Saul to die at that time.

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Really? Well, I'm here to deny it....It's was Saul's will to depart from the Lord....God's will is always life....Saul, by rejecting God who is the author of life, choose death.

I just mean that it was God's will for Saul to die once Saul had departed from the Lord.

Are you saying that at no point was it God's will that Saul die? That He planned for Saul to continue living?

How about the Egyptian army that was killed in the Red Sea-- would you say God never intended for them to perish but that He instead planned for them to go on living?

I do agree with you last statement, that when we reject the Author of life, we are really choosing death. That is one of the laws of the universe which God created.

[Gerr]

Do you know the reason for every baby that dies?