"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, there can be no doubt that God's ideal was for Saul to repent and have eternal life. In the same way, God's ideaL was for Lucifer to never become the Devil and be thrown out of heaven. But we're not dealing with the ideal. We must come to grips with what actually happened, and what actually happened was that God expelled, or threw out, Satan and the other wicked spirits from heaven.

Jude says they "left." I've quoted GC 542 several times for you, which you've not commented on. GC 542 is critical IMO to understanding what we're discussing.

I'm sorry you didn't see my reply to your mention of Jude 6 and its reference to the angels' having "left."

We know that the evil angels "left" heaven. It's obvious they left. But it remains for Rev. 12 and 2 Peter 2: 4, and the writings of Ellen White, to tell us the manner of their leaving. We know that the reason they left is that they were "thrown out" and "thrown down to the earth."

2 Peter 2: 4 says they were "cast down to Tartarus" and put in chains, etc. "Tartarus" is obviously referring to this world where they were confined and "kept in gloomy darkness under guard until the judgment."

Ellen White says they were "expelled." Jude's expressions show that they "left" the proper position that the Creator had intended for them to occupy. By leaving that position, they effectively abandoned heaven. That is why God declared to Satan that there was no more a place for him in heaven. This is when God "decreed" that Satan and all the other fallen angels were "banished from heaven." The ESV says, "the angels... did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling." This is talking about the angels abandoning the positions that God had given them. Satan certainly abandoned his position and place. He refused to submit to Christ but rebelled against Him and against God the Father Himself. Satan said that he would fight to the point of force, strength against strength, to defend his rights.

Then there was war in heaven because Satan resisted God's decree that he had to leave heaven. Satan and his angels lost the war in heaven and these were "thrown down to the earth." The evidence simply does not support the idea that Satan left heaven of his own will. He was kicked out, expelled, thrown out, forced out, told he must leave, banished, etc.

I read GC 542 again. A key statement is "Will He then chain those rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?" Of course God wouldn't. Her main point on that page is NOT that God never uses force but that God never uses force to make rebels stay in heaven or use force to make them obey Him. He won't force us to be saved or obey His will, either. God will only accept willing obedience freely offered. Unwilling, forced obedience isn't what God wants, obviously. If He did, He would have created machines or puppets.

Do you take this to mean that after God decreed that heaven had no more place for Satan, God allowed Satan to decide to whether to leave heaven or not?

I understand it to mean, not that God won't ever use force against Satan or against sinners, but that He won't ever force them to love Him or accept Him or live with Him.

Let me know how you are understanding and applying these statements in GC 542.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It doesn't say the "old vanished" or "died." It says it "changed" and "put on" immortality. You are using words in a way the Bible never does.

If I don't take certain things to heaven with me what happened to them?

For example, I won't take "indwelling sin" with me. It's not something a doctor can remove by an operation. Our sin nature is in our members...it's in our DNA. That's why David could say, "I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Note David was sinful from conception. Why? He received the fallen life of Adam - a life bent towards self...i.e., full of iniquity.

Not only does our sinful nature cease to exist, but our sexual apparatus goes too. As Jesus said, "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

So what happens to our sexual identity? What happens to a woman's womb, her breasts, etc? Where did it go?

Here's the thing at the resurrection we receive a new life and not the old one fixed up. Where did all those things go?

I can agree with most of what you say here. We will probably not have our sex organs because we won't be having sexual intercourse, nor will women give birth. But that doesn't mean there won't be some basic differences between men and women. Just how we will be different or what kind of identity we will have, we really don't know. Yet we will retain our basic personalities and characters and even to some extent our mannerisms. People will "recognize" us even though we will no doubt be very different in some signifant ways. God honors our freedom too much not to respect our individuality and choices, which made us over a lifetime into the individuals that we are.

I don't believe Jesus meant that we willbe just like the angels in every way. He was talking about our being like the angels in the sense of not marrying, ie. having sex partners. We will love everyone but in a pure way. No doubt we will have special friends but we will love all people more than we now love our best friends and family members.

So I agree with you in these things, but I still do not see how this means that the living righteous at Christ's return somehow "die" in such a way that it fulfills Ezekiel 18: 4. The latter is talking about literal,physical death as the punishment for wickeness.

[Robert]

Yet we will retain our basic personalities and characters and even to some extent our mannerisms.

[pnattmbtc]

p:If this is your point, why did you bring up Elijah and Enoch? They have nothing to do with this.

J:Because you and others have said that the statement, "the soul that sins shall die," is a universal principle which applies to everyone.

[Robert]

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"(Phil. 3:21). . . .[2SM 32, 33]

[Robert]

God uses force

He sets limits....

If you jump out a window 10 stores high you will die. Why? God created gravity and it limits what you can do....

[Gerr]

And if someone goes beyond the limits then what?

[Robert]

And if someone goes beyond the limits then what?

God cuts our throats and watches us bleed out....

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And if someone goes beyond the limits then what?

God cuts our throats and watches us bleed out....

I thought you said that God doesn't kill?

pk

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yet we will retain our basic personalities and characters and even to some extent our mannerisms.

Character means mind-set....Our mind-set will be in complete harmony with God's agape. But the mind isn't something tangible, nor are our personalities.

We receive new bodies, not new mind-sets or new characters. Our mind-sets will be the same as they were when we went into the grave or when we are translated at the Second Coming. God does not change our minds or our thinking or our characters.

Originally Posted By: John317

So I agree with you in these things, but I still do not see how this means that the living righteous at Christ's return somehow "die" in such a way that it fulfills Ezekiel 18:4.

Quote:

ROBERT: Yes, they will not rot in their graves, but that doesn't mean that our old life from Adam doesn't cease to exist. You call it what you want, but when something comes to an end I call that death.

I think that's your own term for it because the Bible doesn't call it death but a change from mortality to immortality. It says our "mortal will put on immortality" and the perishable will "put on" imperishable, but that isn't death of the mortal. The righteous don't die when they stop being subject to death.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

God uses force

He sets limits....

If you jump out a window 10 stores high you will die. Why? God created gravity and it limits what you can do....

But how can you compare our jumping out a window to God's confining Satan to the earth during the 1000 years? Gravity is a natural law that applies to us in our natural condition. God isn't doing anything to us personally or individually. On the other hand, when Satan is confined to the earth, the Bible definitely depicts God's angel as doing something to Satan individually and personally. His confinement here is not due to some natural law that God created to apply to everyone but is due to a decision on God's part to force Satan to remain on the earth for a specific period of time. Gravity operates for all time for all humans as long as we are in our mortal state.

People decide to jump out a window when they know it will result in death but God doesn't make them do it. In the case of Satan, the Bible says an angel of God chains Satan to the earth so he can't tempt anyone, and at the end of the 1000 years, it says the angel of God releases Satan from his "prison." God is here plainly taking an active part in forcing Satan to stay on earth. He won't be free to move around. God arranges a "chain" of circumstances to force Satan into doing what God wants him to do, and then afterwards God raises the wicked dead and gives Satan liberty to tempt the wicked again.

God is right to do this. I don't think God looks bad because He uses force to keep Satan confined to the earth during the 1000 years. If God allowed Satan the freedom to do so, we can be sure he wouldn't stay on the earth during that time. I want Satan forced to stay on the desolate earth for the 1000 years. Don't you?

[John317]

JOHN3:17: ...you and others have said that the statement, "the soul that sins shall die," is a universal principle which applies to everyone.

Quote:

It is.

If it is a univeral principle, then no one who sins can go to heaven without seeing death. But that is not true, since two people went to heaven without ever dying, and we know that many other people will go to heaven without seeing death when Christ returns.

Let me ask a few simple questions and show the answers:

1) Did Enoch and Elijah sin? Answer: Yes.

2) Did they ever die? Answer: NO.

3) Did the rightous living at the Second Coming ever commit sin? Answer: Yes.

4) Will right righteous living be translated without seeing death? Answer: Yes.

Therefore, since not all sinners die, it is not a universal principle, because there are clearly some exceptions to the rule that the soul who sins shall die.

Do you agree with the answers given to the questions and with the conclusion?

[BobRyan]

{SR 18.2}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before.

White, E. G. (1947; 2002). The Story of Redemption (18). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Does this sound like no force was used?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Can you think of any exceptions to the rule that all souls who sin shall die?

Well, how about Enoch and Elijah? Weren't they sinners? Why, yes, they sure were. Of course. Did they ever die? NO.

So there are your exceptions to the rule.

There are no exceptions. .... The principle that the soul that sinneth shall die is 100% true, and is in reference to the second death, not the first. The reason that not just Enoch and Elijah, but any saint, does not suffer the second death is because they are born again, saved from death. They only do not suffer the second death because they are severed from sin.

Notice that you say there are no exceptions to the rule that "the soul that sinneth shall die," but then you turn right around and list some exceptions, saying that they do not die because they are born again and saved from death. It's true they are born again and saved from death, but that proves the exception to the rule, doesn't it? You seem to be saying that they aren't exceptions, but I don't see how they aren't.

Whether the reference in Ezekiel 18: 4 is to the first death or the second, I don't think it really matters. No matter whether it refers to the first or second death, it still is not a universal principle since many people who sinned did not die. To give the reason they did not die is to show that there are exceptions to the rule.

My point in this is to show that if we assume a statement is a universal principle when it is not, we will arrive at wrong conclusions. What we need to do is be open to the notion that there are exceptions to rules that may generally apply but which do not apply in every instance. I believe one such instance is when the Bible says God expelled Satan from heaven and thrust him down to the earth.

[John317]

Clearly from the context and details - they had aLREADY had the "conflict of ideas" in which the final result was 1/3 with Satan and 2/3's with God the Son.

But in the statement above - you see the NEXT stage of conflict that came AFTER the battle of ideas had already split the camp into two opposing sides.

Excellent post, and a very important, crucial point there. Thanks for making it so clear.

[Gerr]

And let me add this:

And the angel of the Lord went out and struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Isa 37:36 ESV.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Robert: God cuts our throats and watches us bleed out....

I thought you said that God doesn't kill?

pk

Sarcasm, my friend!

[John317]

And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Isa 37:36 ESV.

And the KJV:

"... and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses." That's very literal. I remember my dad thinking that was a very funny way to put it. I think so too.

An important point, too, is that it says it was done by "the angel of the Lord." It doesn't say the angel of the Lord allowed Satan to smite the camp of the Assyrians.

[BobRyan]

Whether the reference in Ezekiel 18: 4 is to the first death or the second, I don't think it really matters. No matter whether it refers to the first or second death, it still is not a universal principle since many people who sinned did not die.

Ezek 18 can ONLY reference the second death - since it is totally not true that all the righteous were exempted from the first death and Ezek 18 makes it clear that the righteous who turn from sin will NOT die -- and the wicked (even if they are the once-righteous that turn back into sin) -- will all most certainly die.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

And let me add this:

And the angel of the Lord went out and struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Isa 37:36 ESV.

Indeed.

1. The Flood. (ALL mankind wiped out by God as per 2Peter 3)

2. Sodom and Gomorrah wiped out by God as per Jude and Peter's statement

3. Uzzah

4. One of the sons of Judah.

5. Annanias and Saphirah

6. The Lake of Fire - 2nd death. (where God AGAIN Kills those who died in the flood -- in case we did not get the point the first time!)

The list of compelling details are pretty convincing to even the most resistant mind -

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

=====================================

The text above is a lot easier to read than many would like to imagine.

So "yes" -- the War in heaven was every bit as real!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Clearly from the context and details - they had aLREADY had the "conflict of ideas" in which the final result was 1/3 with Satan and 2/3's with God the Son.

But in the statement above - you see the NEXT stage of conflict that came AFTER the battle of ideas had already split the camp into two opposing sides.

Excellent post, and a very important, crucial point there. Thanks for making it so clear.

John - you are welcome.

I agree that this point is incredibly obvious and clear as is almost every single point pertaining to this topic.

This points to a deeper element at work here - deeper than the idea that people cannot work through the obvious battle,war,power context for "there was war in heaven" with "Michael and his angels FIGHTING against Satan and his angels".

(Hint: How very different the text would have read if the real intent was the much more nonsensical "Satan and his angels VOTED THEMSELVES OUT of heaven").

What we are really seeing here is the effect of teachers like Maxwell whose method is to point to some Bible text or Ellen White statement that fully debunks their own view and then comment "well some people believe that -- but I prefer the lahhjahh view" -- instead of actually addressing the problem from the text so opposed to his false doctrine. (Then of course he adds an obligatory reference from some other area of scripture or from Ellen White made to appear to oppose the offending text he is trying to squirm out of ... )

"To each his own" - I usually say when I run across that kind of non-Bible anti-exegesis model.

But then you see it come back up in places like this thread - and wow! It is amazing how even the most direct statements are denied.

in Christ,

Bob

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:If this is your point, why did you bring up Elijah and Enoch? They have nothing to do with this.

J:Because you and others have said that the statement, "the soul that sins shall die," is a universal principle which applies to everyone.

p:It is. Here are some examples of the principle:

EGW:God's Word declares, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20). But God does not desire the death of anyone. At infinite cost He provided for man a second probation. He "so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). (UL 379)

p:Even clearer is the following:

EGW:The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death,--a death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection... (BE 8/10/96)

p:I don't think the SOP every uses this phrase to refer to the first death. It's always the second. As she uses it, it's articulating a universal principle, which is the same principle as "the wages of sin is death" or "sin, which it is finished, brings forth death," or "the sting of death is sin," or death "is the inevitable result of sin."

J:If it is a univeral principle, then no one who sins can go to heaven without seeing death.

This isn't talking about the first death, but the second.

Quote:

But that is not true, since two people went to heaven without ever dying, and we know that many other people will go to heaven without seeing death when Christ returns.

Again, this is talking about the second death: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death,--a death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection."

Quote:

Let me ask a few simple questions and show the answers:

1) Did Enoch and Elijah sin? Answer: Yes.

2) Did they ever die? Answer: NO.

3) Did the rightous living at the Second Coming ever commit sin? Answer: Yes.

4) Will right righteous living be translated without seeing death? Answer: Yes.

Therefore, since not all sinners die, it is not a universal principle, because there are clearly some exceptions to the rule that the soul who sins shall die.

Do you agree with the answers given to the questions and with the conclusion?

No.

[BobRyan]

The confusion in the above has to do with a blunder that many Adventist evangelists make in their use of Ezek 18 and the state of the dead.

They have several arguments that are simply shortsighted and wrong.

They "want" to use Ezek 18 to say that the soul is dead when a person dies the first death - and that since all have sinned - then all souls die.

As tempting as that argument is since the text says "the soul that sins DIES" -- it is dead wrong because EXEGESIS demands that we take the chapter IN CONTEXT.

The chapter says that ALL the righteous LIVE and DO NOT die.

The chapter says that ALL the wicked die -- and do NOT escape that sentence.

Thus this can ONLY be true of the SECOND death.

And it is also useful in Matt 10 where Christ says NOT to "fear those who kill the body but cannot also kill the soul".

For it is only in fiery hell that God "DESTROYS BOTH body AND soul".

As Adventist we believe in soul SLEEP. We do not claim that the "soul does not exist" (unless we are using one of those shortsighted evangelistic illustrations with box and nails NEVER approved of either in the Bible or in anything Ellen White has ever written).

Christ said "Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM".

Christ did not say "Lazarus no longer EXISTS - I go that I may CREATE Him" or "I go that I may cause him to EXIST again".

(Now here is a subject I have actually thought of writing a chapter or two on -- (but could not do it without ending with a preposition)

BTW this topic seems to be very far afield from the topic of this thread. What am I missing?

in Christ,

Bob

[pnattmbtc]

Notice that you say there are no exceptions to the rule that "the soul that sinneth shall die," but then you turn right around and list some exceptions, saying that they do not die because they are born again and saved from death.