"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

God wants very much to put an end to sin and all of it's horrific realities. It is a fair question to ask, why doesn't God do something about it, the answer is He really wants to, but if He comes in judgment on sin and apostacy He must destroy all that is not righteous. The fact that there is none who are righteous on earth today would mean He must destroy everthing and everybody. God is waiting for us to complete the sanctification process and become righteous and them He will come and destroy wickedness.

God created Lucifer because He (God) does not allow His creation to be dictated to by His foreknowledge. God did not create sin when He created Lucifer, and He did not doom the earth to sin when He created Adam and told him not to eat from a certain tree. All of God's created beings have the prevledge to choose to obey or disobey God, otherwise we would be preprogrammed robots, possibly entertaining but certainly not useful to God.

I agree with much that you write here, but I don't agree that there are none righteous on the earth today. The Bible's definition of "rightous people" is not "sinlessness" or absolute perfection, nor is it even meeting the law's demands on our own. For instance, when the Bible speaks of the righteous being saved but the wicked being lost, it isn't signifying that one group is sinless and absolutely perfect while the others are all equally evil.

The Bible calls Lot a righteous man(2 Peter 2:8; cf Gen. 18: 25, 26, 28), also Noah (Gen. 6: 6), Job (1: 1,8), Elizabeith and Zecharias (Luke 1:6).

[John317]

Most people who use "heresy" though, at least in my experience, don't mean disagreement with the official teaching of the church. It can often mean disagreement with their own beliefs, which are so obviously true and Biblical that any dissent is heresy.

Yes, I agree the word "heresy" and particulary, "heretic," are thrown around too freely and carelessly, but there is true heresy and there are true heretics.

[teresaq]

pnattmbtc: bringing up the Bible study methods of Jehovah's Witnesses is a "cheap tactic."

j: The reason it is not a cheap tactic is that it's a valid illustration

[John317]

As Adventists, we are denominationally opposed to this civil/religious union and have been throughout our history.

Praise God.

We need to remember we are an international church and our mission is to the world, not just western civilization.

I completely agree, Karl, and as you say, Praise God for the stand taken by God's remnant church.

[teresaq]

You are taking Ezekiel 18: 4 out of context. My understanding of Ezekiel 18 is based on careful exegesis and analysis of the entire chapter, and my conclusions agree with the SDA Bible commentary as well as with every commentary that I have seen on these texts. The fact that the righteous who are alive when Christ returns will NEVER die proves that not all souls who sin shall die. As stated already, also, Enoch and Elijah never died but went to heaven without seeing death, although they were sinners.

[John317]

...besides which it doesnt really prove you right since its just an accusation against someone who believes differently than you do. accusations are not bible proof.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: I'm not interested in accusations but in Bible evidence and valid reasoning and argumentation.

Quote:

TERESAQ(sda): then why do the accusations instead giving bible proof for your position?

I make no accusations. I have been giving Bible evidence for my position all along. Go back and look at my posts.

You may be mistaking refutation of evidence and arguments for accusations. I'm not making any personal accusations. It's important on the Forum to know the difference. One of the rules is that people are free to rebut issues, ideas, evidence, etc., but not persons.

Quote:

TERESAQ (sda): plus it sounds like you have set yourself up as the judge of what that is? is that what you mean?

No, that's not what I mean.

Everyone here has an equal right to put forward his beliefs and evidence. That includes both of us. So put forward your beliefs and evidence, and I will continue to do the same. You have a perfect right to say that I am wrong and that you are right, as does everyone else. Let everyone be persuaded in his own mind.

[teresaq]

Ellen White said that everyone should study the Bible personally for themselves, using all the tools at their disposal,

the only "tools" i am aware of that ellen white said were prayer and comparing scripture with scripture.

what "tools" are you referring to?

[teresaq]

We already have a devil after all....

and we behave like one or the other.

but in all honesty i understand your point. because of certain mentalities in the church i couldnt see the difference between God and satan for years. but thankfully He does have His people, as rare and far between as they be, who accurately represent Him. :(

[John317]

what "tools" are you referring to?

In the final analysis, that's up to the Bible student to decide. Of course it will depend on what he has access to.

It might include concordances, Bible dictionaries, books by other Bible students, discussions with other believers, lexicons, ancient manuscripts, printed Greek or Hebrew texts, other translations, Greek-English or Hebrew-English Interlinears, the SDA Bible commentary, Theological Dictionaries, etc.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I guess that "different exegesis" thing was too good to be true.

Oh well, I guess we can all be heretics today.

her•e•sy \ˈher-ə-sē, ˈhe-rə-\ n

pl -sies [ME heresie, fr. AF, fr. LL haeresis, fr. LGk hairesis, fr. Gk, action of taking, choice, sect, fr. hairein to take] 13c

1 a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Are you holding an opinion contrary to the official teaching of your church?

While still engaged in these fruitless struggles, Calvin, chancing one day to visit one of the public squares, witnessed there the burning of a heretic. He was filled with wonder at the expression of peace which rested upon the martyr's countenance. Amid the tortures of that dreadful death, and under the more terrible condemnation of the church, he manifested a faith and courage which the young student painfully contrasted with his own despair and darkness, while living in strictest obedience to the church. Upon the Bible, he knew, the heretics rested their faith. He determined to study it, and discover, if he could, the secret of their joy. {GC88 220.3}

[teresaq]

Finally, I wish everyone would read those quotes several times and think about what they're saying and ask God to help us put them into practice.

i wish you had said "we"...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

You are taking Ezekiel 18: 4 out of context. My understanding of Ezekiel 18 is based on careful exegesis and analysis of the entire chapter, and my conclusions agree with the SDA Bible commentary as well as with every commentary that I have seen on these texts. The fact that the righteous who are alive when Christ returns will NEVER die proves that not all souls who sin shall die. As stated already, also, Enoch and Elijah never died but went to heaven without seeing death, although they were sinners.

john, stop and think for a moment.

Eze 18:4 ... the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

whether a person sinned or not, in that time, before that time or now, they will still die.

this does not refer to the first death because the first death happens to all. we all die because of adams sin, not our own.

after the second resurrection we will die for our sins if we hold onto them.

Sure, all die eventually, but the point of Ezekiel 18 is that some die as a result of punishments and judgments from God, and the Israelites at that time believed that they were being punished and judged (DYING) for the sins of their parents or other previous generations. That is the reason for the proverb at the beginning of the chapter. God is telling them that this proverb will no longer be used because the people will realize that if/when they are judged or punished (in this life and yes, also in the final judgement) it will be be because of their own sins.

The people of Ezekiel's day were blaming others for their judgments by God, kind of like Addam and Eve did, and like many others. God is trying to tell them that they are also sinning just like their parents, so if they are under God's judgments, it is not because of their parents but because they need to look at what they are doing to cause the judgments.

What "judgments"? Like this one: "How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts, and plague to cut off man and beast from it." Ezekiel 14: 21. Study the whole chapter.

These kinds of judgments caused death. So, yes, people die eventually, but the judgments of God were causing people to die sooner than they otherwise would have. So they had questions about it, and Ezekiel 18 is part of God's answer to them.

Also study Amos for more judgements of God that were coming on the people in the present life. Think of the judgments that were happening to the Jews at the very time Ezekiel was writing. They are found also in the book of Daniel. These judgments which resulted in death and destruction were contemporaneous with the people about whom Ezekiel was writing.

[pnattmbtc]

JOHN317: These are excellent. Let's put them into practice here on the forum.

Shall all the posts that do otherwise be deleted? How many would be left if that happened?

PNATTMBTC: This is rather cryptic. What's your point please?

J:I don't ever intend to be "cryptic."

I mean that I believe the quotes of Ellen White on post #329074, and I would like to see all of us willingly follow through with what the Lord inspired her to write.

I think it would be wonderful if we all truly wanted to practice what she says in them.

When I ask, "How many would be left if that happened," I am saying that I think we on Adventist Forum too often fail to practice what Ellen White wrote in those quotes. Many posts would not be written if everyone did practice them.

Finally, I wish everyone would read those quotes several times and think about what they're saying and ask God to help us put them into practice.

I wish they would be put into practice as well. In regards to your question, "Shall all the posts that do otherwise be deleted?" I think they should be.

[teresaq]

You are taking Ezekiel 18: 4 out of context. My understanding of Ezekiel 18 is based on careful exegesis and analysis of the entire chapter, and my conclusions agree with the SDA Bible commentary as well as with every commentary that I have seen on these texts. The fact that the righteous who are alive when Christ returns will NEVER die proves that not all souls who sin shall die. As stated already, also, Enoch and Elijah never died but went to heaven without seeing death, although they were sinners.

[Robert]

Praise God for the stand taken by God's remnant church.

This baloney! The remnant is yet to be formed....

[Robert]

i couldnt see the difference between God and satan for years. but thankfully He does have His people, as rare and far between as they be, who accurately represent Him.

So we have many here presenting a false god?

[John317]

but for me i have to stick with the plain meaning. the plain meaning for me is that if they did not repent, regardless of whether they would die sooner or later, and there were many martyrs, they would die an eternal death from which there would be no resurrection, and i believe that was the point God was trying to so desperately get across to them.

OK, you believe it, and that is a fine opinion, but can you show from chapter 18 or any other part of Ezekiel clear evidence that the people were concerned with the judgment that will occur after the resurrection?

Where is the plain reference to the final judgment in the context of Ez. 18: 4?

If this was God's point that He was "trying so desperately to get across to them," as you say, why didn't He say it with clarity? If you think it does clearly refer to the final judgment, please show the text that you believe does it.

[pnattmbtc]

J:The Jehovah's Witnesses use the same argument to prove some of their false doctrines. They believe there were never any exceptions to the rule.

PNATTMBTC: .....Finally, your statement in regards to Jehovah's Witnesses is a cheap tactic.

J:I respectfully disagree that it's a "cheap tactic." I believe it's an example of what wrong methods of Bible study can lead to.

[John317]

As moderator:

Do not re-post posts that have been deleted by the moderator. Stop.

If you don't like the decisions of the moderator, use the appeals process but don't keep re-posting deleted posts.

Some of your recent posts were deleted because they are off topic, are argumentative and repetative and don't advance the dialogue or discussion. Again, if you disagree, feel free to use the appeals process.

[Robert]

if you disagree, feel free to use the appeals process.

But the appeals process is biased.

[teresaq]

well, john, you appear determined.

but for me i have to stick with the plain meaning. the plain meaning for me is that if they did not repent, regardless of whether they would die sooner or later, and there were many martyrs, they would die an eternal death from which there would be no resurrection, and i believe that was the point God was trying to so desperately get across to them.

but if you wish to see it differently, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

but for me i have to stick with the plain meaning. the plain meaning for me is that if they did not repent, regardless of whether they would die sooner or later, and there were many martyrs, they would die an eternal death from which there would be no resurrection, and i believe that was the point God was trying to so desperately get across to them.

OK, you believe it, and that is a fine opinion, but can you show from chapter 18 or any other part of Ezekiel clear evidence that the people were concerned with the judgment that will occur after the resurrection?

Where is the plain reference to the final judgment in the context of Ez. 18: 4?

If this was God's point that He was "trying so desperately to get across to them," as you say, why didn't He say it with clarity? If you think it does clearly refer to the final judgment, please show the text that you believe does it.

john, in light of what i said in the bolded red part from my last post, that you left out, to which you are responding here, this is coming across as "argumentative". is that how you mean it, or am i misunderstanding? :)

[Robert]

"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

Answer: Metaphorical! Unless you use non-biblical documentation....Then of course you can make it say anything....

Is was a war of ideas where Lucifer insisted that the love of self be tested. God would not....God wouldn't allow the love self to be tested in heaven. So He placed Lucifer here....There was no violence....no angels wreslting and boxing each other, God simply moved Lucifer and 1/3 the angels to a new location....

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

if you disagree, feel free to use the appeals process.

But the appeals process is biased.

Bottom line ... The moderator can set whatever tone he desires. There is no appeal to that rule. We just need to adjust as the moderator dictates.

[John317]

There's nothing wrong with the methodology I'm using. It's the same as yours, unless you believe there aren't any universal principles. We see a principle that looks like a universal principle, such as "God cannot lie," or "Compelling power is only to be found under Satan's government" and determine whether texts which appear to contradict these principles really do, in which case these become "rules which have exceptions."

Where we disagree is whether the given item is a universal principle or not.

If God never uses force or compels, please explain the verse in the Bible that plainly says that "God drove the man out of the Garden."

Also, could you please explain how it happened that Israel was able finally to leave Egypt?

Finally, can you explain what occurred at the Red Sea. Who caused the waters to part? Who caused the waters to come together again and why at that specific moment when the Egyptians were passing through?

Up to now your replies to these questions have been very general and have not dealt specifically with the texts themselves in any detail. Please exegete the passages in questions and show your evidence from the texts that God does not use force or compel.

[Robert]

Bottom line ... The moderator can set whatever tone he desires. There is no appeal to that. We just need to adjust as the moderator dictates.

Oh well, truth will win out and those presenting a God of cruel wrath will become more like him. My problem is some times they are very convincing and then I start believing it just a bit and start acting like the God they present....

Rob