"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[karl]

Quote:

(... The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation, and the Lord withdraws his protection, and leaves them to the mercy of the leader they have chosen. Satan will have power over those who have yielded themselves to his control, and he will plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble..... {4SP 440.3})

the lost had been protected from satan and didnt know it!!

judgments=decisions, verdicts if you will.

so when God pours out His judgments He is saying, the lost have chosen satan, let Him be their ruler, i will no longer protect them.

Shall we read on from where you stopped? Here's the next paragraph:

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he allows. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.

This states unequivocally that God is in charge of the destruction - whether by direct command to a holy angel or by permissive withdrawal of His protection and allowing evil angels to do what they have been wanting to do all along.

There is just no way around the fact that God is controlling these events.

[John317]

... The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. (GC 614As

Jesus moved out of the Most Holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon his garment, and as he left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man, and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when Jesus stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed, and Satan had the control of man. {1SG 198.1})

the lost had been protected from satan and didnt know it!!

so when God pours out His judgments He is saying, the lost have chosen satan, let Him be their ruler, i will no longer protect them.

Sure. It's an important point to know, for sure, altho' rather elementary at this stage of the discussion. God gives the wicked up to the consequences of their choices. It's a theme that is found, among other places, in Hosea and Romans. We're certainly in agreement on this.

I think, however, you may be saying that this explains the seven last plagues and the destruction of the wicked, that God is merely passive and simply allows Satan and the wicked to self-destruct and commit mass murder, etc. That's the part that I disagree with. The reason I disagree is that it's not the way the Bible portrays it, nor, certainly, the Spirit of prophecy. Ellen White writes that Jesus together with the righteous study the lives of the wicked during the 1000 years and decide the punishment that the wicked deserve. "All are punished according to their deeds" (GC 673.) This can only happen if God is in control of the punishment.

After the wicked are resurrected, Jesus pronounces sentences upon them. They turn on each other as well as on Satan, but she doesn't say that they destroy him. (How could humans or human weapons destroy spirits [angels]?) Fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes them after Satan tries to persuade them to attack the holy city.

Notice that the Spirit of prophecy says Satan is still alive long after the wicked have all perished. (GC 673) This could not be if the Devil is destroyed by the wicked.

There are many other problems with the view that the wicked are in charge of the destruction of the wicked and of the fallen angels. I'm sure you can think of some of these. For me at least, one problem is that if the death of the wicked is at the hands of the wicked, how can they all be punished according to their deeds, as decided during the 1000 years?

Another: As the Creator and Judge of all the universe (as well as the One who's proven beyond doubt His agape/love for them), isn't God (Christ) the only One who has a right to execute the sentence upon the guilty?

How can justice be served by putting the wicked and Satan in control of it? For me that would like the court sentencing murderers to be killed by other murderers in whatever way they choose. WE can be sure they would kill in terrible ways, making it impossible to bring about any kind of justice in the punishment. That only makes it worse, not better, wouldn't it? Would it have made things better if God had allowed Sodom to be destroyed by killers instead of destroying it Himself?

I think it's very instructive that both 2 Peter 2: 6 and Jude 7 refer to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as "examples" of the destruction of the wicked. Well, how did they die? They died, the Bible says, by fire that comes down from God out of heaven. God was in charge. God did not leave it up to the arbitrary will of criminals to punish the wicked. What reason, then, do we have to believe that God will change at the end and punish the wicked at the hands of the wicked?

Thoughts?

[karl]

Personally I don't see a problem with describing the war in heaven (aka "the Great Controversy") as one which involves combat, it's just that the combat is such as befits the war. It would certainly not be very intelligent for Satan to challenge God on the basis of physical force. Satan may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

I agree that it would seem suicidal for Satan to take on God with brute force. It certainly seems that it would have to be an ideological war that resulted in Satan being cast out. But aren't we told somewhere that Satan was allowed to tempt loyal angels for a period of time even after he was cast out of heaven? That piece of data doesn't fit.

Also, we must remember that at the end of time Satan tries a physical assault on the New Jerusalem. So, who knows whether he was smart enough not to try brute force on God? At the end of time he has had even more opportunity to know God's power and wisdom in battle. His forces have suffered defeat at the hands of God many times.

Desperation tends to overrule sanity at times.

[karl]

There are many other problems with the view that the wicked are in charge of the destruction of the wicked and of the fallen angels. I'm sure you can think of some of these. For me at least, one problem is that if the death of the wicked is at the hands of the wicked, how can they all be punished according to their deeds, as decided during the 1000 years?

What about the last one standing? Who takes care of him?

[John317]

What about the last one standing? Who takes care of him?

Yes, very good point.

I'm sure many would simply commit suicide rather than face the suffering they see others going through.

I just don't see how this would work. I really think the Bible portrays it the best way: with a God of love and justice and mercy in charge of the death of his own creatures. He's proved that he's trust-worthy. I would trust myself and my loved ones to His hands any day.

The other day I had to have my dog put to sleep. She'd been a wonderful, loving pet for 16 years. I was holding her as the doctor put the needle in her leg. I know she knew that I loved her. I was crying. I still miss her. She used to meet me every day at our door.

I wonder if anyone thinks that it would be better to've let her be killed by wild dogs. Probably not. I knew it was time for her to go, and I loved her even as she was put to sleep. In some ways, that's kind of like the death of the wicked at the end. They will die but they will know that God loves them and is fair and that there's really nothing else to be done. I picture God crying over them, and knowing God, I wouldn't be suprised if their deaths make God's heart ache, as it were, throughout eternity.

[John317]

Jesus says people will be punished according to what their works deserve? Did he say it, and if so, do you believe it?

Carefully compare Luke 12: 42-48; Matt. 16: 27; Rev. 2: 23; 20: 12; 22: 12; Romans 2: 6. There are others but let these suffice for now.

[Robert]

Why then the words of Scripture which include "torment," fire, burning, etc.?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Could it be because of the way Satan had originally been made-- as a spirit and as the highest being next to Christ?

I'm looking for a quote I want to show you that has to do with your last post.

richard, do you believe the angels are immaterial beings?

[Robert]

The point you are missing is that in the verse you refer to, it does not mean a violent force but rather "to convey away suddenly, transport hastily" (The Analytical Greek Lexicon, Zondervan Publishing House, p. 52)..

You know, everyone has their favorite sources....Maybe that's why there are so many denominations! No two believers think alike.

Bottom line if God didn't want so much diversity in the way believers think maybe He should have communicated differently instead of using a book called the Bible. Everyone thinks they are right....

[John317]

It is not the case that a principle must come from the Bible to be true.

This is true, but when it comes to arriving at a universal principle regarding God, it must be verified by special revelation before we accept it. That is the only reliable source for knowing what God is like. If the Bible contradicts the "principle," we should accept the Bible record.

There are many examples of so-called universal principles that turned out not to be as universal as people at first thought.

One example:

Some people think that since the law of God says, "Thou shalt not kill," it means that God would never command people to kill others. But this is based on a faulty assumption. They think all killing is immoral and wrong. But is this true? If it isn't, then their whole argument falls to pieces. Do the commandments of God really prohibit the taking of any human life under any circumstances? No. So it's all about how we we define our terms.

[Robert]

IT IS THE BIBLE that says there was war in heaven.

[Guest]

Jesus says people will be punished according to what their works deserve? Did he say it, and if so, do you believe it?

Rob: Verse please

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Jesus says people will be punished according to what their works deserve? Did he say it, and if so, do you believe it?

Carefully compare Luke 12: 42-48;

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

IT IS THE BIBLE that says there was war in heaven.

Right, but what type of war? If one of force and combat clearly Lucifer would have been exposed and God, according to your views, would have destroyed him...

I disagree. Why would God have done that any more in that case than He would if the war was one that you are proposing. It was God's decision not to destroy Satan. It didn't matter what Satan did-- God would not have destroyed him. God knew that it was best to let Satan live and prove what he was really like.

If God had punished Satan at that time, befoe he had an opportunity to show his character, Satan would have had a lot of sympathizers, who doubtless would have second-guessed God and doubted His fairness and love. As it is, there isn't be any doubt in my mind that he's fair, just, loving and wise.

[John317]

lets remember that God said He "hated" esau. does that mean that He hated esau? or is He using our language and our mentality to get a point across?

The original word means that God loved Esau less.

[John317]

I must reject.... typical, historic, traditional view for it presents a God who has the characteristics of Satan....No thanks!

Do you know what the historic SDA position on the destruction of the wicked? What was the position of SDA pioneers, such as Joseph Bates, James White, Ellen White, J.N. Andrews, Loughborough, Uriah Smith, etc?

[Robert]

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Okay, but this has nothing to do with varying degrees of punishment....

Let's go to something John quoted:

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Here Paul is referring to the self-righteous Jews. They thought that they were better...more holy...then the Gentiles

2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

In other words if the Jew is going to condemn the Gentile he better be spotless or the law will judge him too....

4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

In other words God loves the Jews...He will draw them to repent of their self-righteous attitude if they do not resist....

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

What does Paul mean? Let's read the context:

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

In other words their faith based relationship produces good works as opposed to self-righteous works....

8 But for those who are self-seeking [works of iniquity done to gain heaven] and who reject the truth [Jesus] and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Then Paul repeats:

9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil [context - rejects Christ through a self-righteous attitude]: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

11 For God does not show favoritism.

To whom? Those who stubbornly refuse Christ and thereby have an "unrepentant heart"! You see if you refuse Christ because you think you are better spiritually than someone else you will remain under law. What happens when you sin under law?

12 All who sin apart from the law [apart from a direct knowledge of the law] will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law [those who known the law] will be judged by the law.

Now under law what does it demand?

13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified

If you want to make it to heaven by your law performance, you must keep the law in every detail to be justified before it....

Okay, there's nothing here about one lost man being punished more than another...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

lets remember that God said He "hated" esau. does that mean that He hated esau? or is He using our language and our mentality to get a point across?

The original word means that God loved Esau less.

No, that's not agape....Agape doesn't have favorites....

[Robert]

Do you know what the historic SDA position on the destruction of the wicked? What was the position of SDA pioneers, such as Joseph Bates, James White, Ellen White, J.N. Andrews, Loughborough, Uriah Smith, etc?

Ellen White has God burning sinners some longer than others....They are tormented until the last part of them is consumed. That means if someone's toe was not consumed all the suffering remains.

Of course that is insane because the brain, the processing unit, can't acknowledge pain....

Rob

[Robert]

I disagree. .... It was God's decision not to destroy Satan. It didn't matter what Satan did-- God would not have destroyed him. God knew that it was best to let Satan live and prove what he was really like.

Earth to John! If there was war in heaven all the sinless worlds would have seen the results of Lucifer's love of self. He would have been exposed and hence no need to see iniquity's results....It would have been evident: Bloodshed and conquest.

By the way, EGW says that the inhabitants the unfallen worlds have microscopic and telescopic eye sight....

You now have a huge conundrum

Rob

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you know what the historic SDA position on the destruction of the wicked? What was the position of SDA pioneers, such as Joseph Bates, James White, Ellen White, J.N. Andrews, Loughborough, Uriah Smith, etc?

Ellen White has God burning sinners some longer than others....They are tormented until the last part of them is consumed. That means if someone's toe was not consumed all the suffering remains.

Of course that is insane because the brain, the processing unit, can't acknowledge pain....

Rob

I guess that just means God is going to keep the brain alive. Not a hard thing at all for God to do.

Not nearly as ridiculous sounding as throwing out the words of God's prophet.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Okay, but this has nothing to do with varying degrees of punishment....

Are you against punishment fitting the crime? Or do you think Cain who murdered one should have the same punishment as Hitler or Stalin, or Satan?

[Robert]

Are you against punishment fitting the crime? Or do you think Cain who murdered one should have the same punishment as Hitler or Stalin, or Satan?

Under God's law the guy who steals a candy bar and the guy who murders millions of Jews reap the same thing: Eternal damnation - the 2nd death. They cease to exist....No hope of a resurrection...goodbye to life forever!

[Gerr]

Quote:

The original word means that God loved Esau less.

No, that's not agape....Agape doesn't have favorites....

So let's hear your "exegesis" of the passage.

[Robert]

I guess that just means God is going to keep the brain alive. Not a hard thing at all for God to do.