"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Yes, he did, and I can certainly see why he would want to stay there, too.

This brings up a question, though:

Since sin changes us and makes us unable to live in the sight of a holy God, why was Satan and the evil angels able to live in the sight of God? How was Satan able to talk-- I mean argue and fuss-- "face to face" with God and survive?

Could it be because of the way Satan had originally been made-- as a spirit and as the highest being next to Christ?

And if Christ became our Savior and gave His life for us-- and we're told that He would have died for just one individual-- why didn't Christ offer to die for the fallen angels? (It's true that Christ's death benefits the angels, but no fallen angel can be saved through Christ's death.)

Both the Bible and Ellen White make it plain that they sinned in heaven, so of course God had no choice except to make them leave. There is no way God could have allowed them to stay. It would have immortalized sin, just as it would have done the same to permit Adam and Eve access to the Tree of Life. So it makes perfect, biblical sense to me that God would drive the angels out of heaven and the man out of the garden. Not to've done so would have jeopardized the peace and safety of God's entire universe.

[Guest]

How was Satan able to talk-- I mean argue and fuss-- "face to face" with God and survive?

Could it be because of the way Satan had originally been made-- as a spirit and as the highest being next to Christ?

I think you answered your own question.

I'm looking for a quote I want to show you that has to do with your last post.

[John317]

Jesus was. and He was the God-man come to reveal the Father to us.

the Father, not Himself.

Yes, Jesus is the God-Man. Amen!!

And there's no doubt the portrait of the Father that Jesus gave us is true and reliable. If the Father had come here instead of the Son, we can be sure that there would have been absolutely no difference.

Let's not forget, though, that when Jesus came here, it wasn't as King or Judge, but as the Savior. People can make the mistake of thinking the Savior loves people so much that He couldn't or wouldn't punish sin or reject the impentitant. But Jesus is the same One who "drove the man from the garden." Jesus is the same One, too, who saved the people of Israel out of bondage and then because of their rebellion and disobedience, did not permit them to go into the Promised Land. Study Hebrews 3: 7 to 8: 11.

"Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest , lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience." Heb. 4: 11.

There's nothing here about simply letting Christ do it all* and how we are already saved and need not be concerned about our salvation. This plainly teaches that we can be lost through disobedience and rebellion.

*(I'm not suggesting that we have to help Christ in His work on Calvary-- rather I'm talking about what we need to do every day in choosing to let Him fill us with His Spirit and rule in our lives.)

[John317]

That pretty well sums it up.

Yeah, those quotes do that, all right.

And it's great that they're in modern English so we don't need to translate them. No one can argue about what they mean-- well, OK, some will still argue. :-)

[Robert]

See the part where it says they were determined to remain in Heaven? They didn't leave on their own.

Sorry, non-biblical source....

[Robert]

It certainly doesn't mean that he hates anyone.

Hmmm? I'm sorry, but if you somehow keep me alive for many days while I'm on fire I must view that as hate! If God were wanting to rid the earth of sin He could just blink me out of existence. Torture should not be part of the picture. The 2nd death is not about torture, it's about no resurrection.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Do you know why some push this vengeful, wrath of God stuff?

Because they actually believe whats in the Bible?

No they don't.....They take what suits their natures and then build up a false god. They seek to terrify folks, much like EGW did with Willie, until she learned better....

[Robert]

Wonderful, wonderful quotes.

No, not wonderful quotes....They are non-biblical! Also, why would God (Christ) do battle with Lucifer? There's no contest between a God and His creation....God could just blink Lucifer from heaven....This notion of war is silly....

[Robert]

Let's not forget, though, that when Jesus came here, it wasn't as King or Judge, but as the Savior.

No, that view is psychotic. If someone came up to me and said, "man, I love you so much that I would die eternally for you, but if don't accept my love I will torture and kill you in the must brutal way" - I'd call the patty wagon and have him picked up

[John317]

OK, so give me a Bible study on the the destruction of the wicked. What does the Bible teach?

[John317]

Torture should not be part of the picture. The 2nd death is not about torture, it's about no resurrection.

Why then the words of Scripture which include "torment," fire, burning, etc.? The language certainly seems to teach that the death will be very unpleasant and not be fast or painless. Some apparently will suffer a while. Why is this the language of the inspired word of God?

Do you then believe that God will just blink people out of existence? How do understand the wicked will perish?

[John317]

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

the word for "caught up" is to seize,...take by force,

G726 har-pad'-zo

From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

The point you are missing is that in the verse you refer to, it does not mean a violent force but rather "to convey away suddenly, transport hastily" (The Analytical Greek Lexicon, Zondervan Publishing House, p. 52).

So the word in Rev. 12: 5 shows that the child was conveyed away suddently by God to His throne. In the passage, the symbolic child is brought up by God's power, not by the power of the child. It is something that happens to the child. The child doesn't do it. God does it. That is the main point brought out in the use of this word.

Of course it is not the same word used in Rev. 12: 9ff. That word is the passive form of ballo, to throw or cast or expel.

Quote:

we also know that satan and the fallen angels are not in chains,

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Yes, any grade-school SDA knows this, or should know it, if he's studying and paying attention in Bible class. No one here has said it is a literal chain. But the chain represents the fact that Satan is confined, or made to stay, in a particular location, in this instance, the earth.

Quote:

of course the spiritualists among us would have a hard time explaining how an immaterial being could be chained, except, i guess, with immaterial chains.

nor will the chains, material or immaterial be "everlasting"...

Again, this is known by most SDAs at a fairly young age. Satan is chained during the 1000 years by a "chain of circumstances." What is that chain? He is forced to stay on the earth without anyone to tempt. The wicked are dead and the righteous are with God in heaven.

I have never suggested that the chain that binds Satan to the earth is a literal, material devise.

Could you please tell who you are calling "spiritualists among us"?

[John317]

No, not wonderful quotes....They are non-biblical!

Yes, they are the Spirit of prophecy, as Jack Sequeira says. We Seventh-day Adventist believe that Ellen White was inspired by God and given genuine visions and dreams by the Lord in order to convey God's messages to His last-day church. So you have to expect that on an Adventist forum, Seventh-day Adventists who believe in her prophetic gift and ministry will quote her and view her writings as an authority. Her writings cannot correct or judge the Bible but rather the Bible corrects or judges her life and work.

I have read hundreds of the great books of world literature, but except for the Bible, none can compare to the writings of a humble, remarkable, little lady lacking formal education who loved Jesus named Ellen White.

Quote:

Also, why would God (Christ) do battle with Lucifer? There's no contest between a God and His creation....God could just blink Lucifer from heaven....This notion of war is silly....

Why does God use people? He doesn't really need them, does He? He could do everything without anyone if He wanted to. Yet, despite this, God chooses to use His intelligent (as well as some not-so-intelligent) creatures.

Why did the angel of God who talked to Daniel in 10: 13 need the help of Michael the first of the chief princes, who, of course, is none other than the pre-incarnate Christ Himself?

Why didn't God just blink and make whatever He wanted happen?

Why does Ellen White speak of the holy angels of God going to the help of the righteous when they pray to God, and the evil angels having to give place to them? Why does God use the angels? Why doesn't He just blink?

I think Satan knew that God wouldn't destroy Him in heaven. He knew that God is loving and kind and patient, so He must have known that he would have a long time to prove God wrong. But he misjudged God. He didn't count on God's wisdom and on the selflessness of the Godhead.

Remember, though, that the angel Lucifer didn't know the true identity of the archangel Michael. He thought Michael was just a humble angel. He had no idea that He was actually the Creator of the universe, in fact his own creator. The pre-incarnate Christ has always been God's communication, the Word-- what God wanted to say to the creatures. And He did it in such a way, as He did on this earth, that the creatures He lived among thought He was just one of themselves. Isn't it amazing that God has this kind of love for He creatures? That would be somewhat like my taking 3 steps down to the level of an insect. One level down for Him was becoming an angel. Two levels down was to become a human being. One level down for us would be to become an animal, such as a monkey or dog. The next level down for us would be to become something less than an animal. I guess that would be an insect. This is what Christ did-- and not just for awhile but forever! He gave up the form of God for the form of man for eternity. I can't understand such love.

[Robert]

We Seventh-day Adventist believe that Ellen White was inspired by God and given genuine visions and dreams by the Lord in order to convey God's messages to His last-day church.

I don't care what you believe, her writings are not biblical and shouldn't used in matters of doctrine. The Bible is the measuring stick or we go back to that cult thingy again...

Rob

[John317]

No they don't.....They take what suits their natures and then build up a false god. They seek to terrify folks, much like EGW did with Willie, until she learned better....

Have you read very much of what she wrote during the last 10 or so years of her life? Do you like it-- agree with it? When did she work on the last edition of the Great Controvesy? That book says that God destoys Satan and that Satan suffers for his rebellion after all others are dead. She began writing it in 1857 and finished the last edition in 1911, yet she never needed to go back and change the earlier editions, nor did she need to make the last edition teach different doctrines about God than the first edition. Some of the language was changed in order to make the meaning clearer-- and documentation was added, etc.-- but the essential message remained the same.

[Robert]

why would God (Christ) do battle with Lucifer? There's no contest between a God and His creation....God could just blink Lucifer from heaven....This notion of war is silly....

John317: God chooses to use His intelligent (as well as some not-so-intelligent) creatures.

This is speculation that God used the angels in combat. So God would rather have bloodshed and war in heaven when He could prevent it?...No, I don't think so....

Such nonsense is more in harmony with your nature than the spirit of God.

[Robert]

That book says that God destoys Satan and that Satan suffers for his rebellion after all others are dead.

Again, John, not a source of authority....Comprehend? No?

Jesus took the sins of whole world onto Himself, right? Yes...that's right. He became sin, who as God knew no sin....He was make a curse, born of a woman, born under the law. How long did Christ suffer for the sins of the whole world? About 6 hrs...not many days. Where did that suffering come from? Not God for He had abandon Christ.

The point is that Jesus took the sins of whole world and died within 1/4 of a day. Given you preoccupation with suffering and torture Jesus should have suffered many months if not years.....

Rob

[John317]

John3:17: God chooses to use His intelligent (as well as some not-so-intelligent) creatures.

This is speculation that God used the angels in combat. So God would rather have bloodshed and war in heaven when He could prevent it?...No, I don't think so....

Such nonsense is more in harmony with your nature than the spirit of God.

I never used the word, "combat." Neither did I ever mention the word or even the concept of "bloodshed" in heaven. Those are your words, not mine.

You are attacking "nonsense" that you falsely claim I believe when it isn't what I believe at all.

All I know is that there was "war in heaven." We know nothing about the nature of that war, except that it was a "struggle," a "fight." Remember Satan said he would "resist" God's "decree that Satan be banished" "to the point of force, strength against strength." I don't know about you but to me it doesn't sound like just a conversation or even just a heated exhange about ideas.

But I think where the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are silent, we should be silent. We can speculate on what that war might have been like, but it's all it would be-- just speculation.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

We do have SOP explanation for why Lucifer and his followers were not immediately obliterated. God wanted the universe to see the outworking of Satan's principles. He worked by deception and it would take time for his deception to be seen for what it is.

But you said that there was war in heaven....If that's the case the evidence was there!!!

IT IS THE BIBLE that says there was war in heaven. All we know for sure is that there was a rebellion. Isaiah & Ezekiel tell us Lucifer wanted to usurped God's throne. That much is clear. As to why God with His word of power would not immediately make them vanish is all speculation, unless you take the inspired word in the SOP.

[pnattmbtc]

This interesting sentence causes me to think it's possible I am wrong about Satan's immediately coming to this earth after he was driven out of heaven.

That's a start!

[pnattmbtc]

God is an infinitely-loving God. This same loving God is also a just and holy God, and yes, His love of righteousness means that He is also a "vengeful God." "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord; I will replay" (Heb. 10: 30). See Deut. 32: 35; Ps. 94: 1; Is. 34: 8; Jude 7.

[pnattmbtc]

I never used the word, "combat." Neither did I ever mention the word or even the concept of "bloodshed" in heaven. Those are your words, not mine.

I certainly got the impression you believed there was combat in heaven, combat which involves the use of physical force and physical weapons. How does this differ from what you believe?

Personally I don't see a problem with describing the war in heaven (aka "the Great Controversy") as one which involves combat, it's just that the combat is such as befits the war. It would certainly not be very intelligent for Satan to challenge God on the basis of physical force. Satan may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

[teresaq]

Quote:

We need to read and take into account everything, not merely a little here and a little there. Little here and little there= still little. We need it ALL.

Exactly! For example, what's the paragraph say immediately before the above?

Quote:

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. (GC 614)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus said that people would be punished according to what they deserve, didn't He?

What good does punishment do? If you send your kid to his room for time out most likely he has learned something, but to destroy someone has no redemptive purpose....

Ok there are reasons for it, but I think the point here is whether you accept what the Bible teaches? Can you see that Jesus says people will be punished according to what their works deserve? Did he say it, and if so, do you believe it?

Also, why are the wicked resurrected, in your view? God could, if he chose, just let the wicked stay in their graves and never raise them up. But of course the Bible says he doesn't do that. How come, you think?

[Robert]

Jesus says people will be punished according to what their works deserve? Did he say it, and if so, do you believe it?

Rob: Verse please