"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

He may delegate the actual acts of vengeance to angels and even humans (Old Testament,) but the verdict and sentence meted out are entirely His decision.

So if God told you to kill me would you try? (hypothetically speaking)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Greek verb, bello, when used in the passive voice, as it is in Rev. 12, ALWAYS refers to the use of force. It NEVER refers to something that someone does voluntarily. For instance, the wicked are "thrown into" [eblhthh] the lake of fire.(Rev. 12: 9 uses the same form of the word, eblhthh.)

This isn't true. I posted previously in this thread a couple of example where it didn't mean something happening to someone caused by force. Also, the Rev. 20 text you quoted says "where the beast and the false prophet are."

yes, it is important to not give the original words meanings they dont have.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

the word for "caught up" is to seize,...take by force,

G726 har-pad'-zo

From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

we also know that satan and the fallen angels are not in chains,

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

of course the spiritualists among us would have a hard time explaining how an immaterial being could be chained, except, i guess, with immaterial chains.

nor will the chains, material or immaterial be "everlasting"...

[Robert]

....just before he tragically and foolishly abandoned his place in God's remnant, commandment-keeping church.

1] The SDA church is not God's remnant.

2] The SDA church doesn't keep the commandments.....Christ kept the commandments, SDA make an effort, but fail to live Christ's life.

Rob

[Robert]

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

the word for "caught up" is to seize,...take by force

Good...give them their own medicine. teehe

Rob

[Robert]

He may delegate the actual acts of vengeance to angels and even humans (Old Testament,) but the verdict and sentence meted out are entirely His decision.

If you came to me and said, "God told me to kill you", well, you'd be the one pushing up daisies. (hypothetically speaking of course).

[Robert]

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:

Did Jesus rule all the nations with a rod of iron? No! He came to reveal the father....He came as "the slave of all"...

[Robert]

1] The SDA church is not God's remnant.

2] The SDA church doesn't keep the commandments.....Christ kept the commandments, SDA make an effort, but fail to live Christ's life.

Rob

The Remnant

Here's a quote from Jack's study:

When the Bible applies this word remnant to the last generation of Christians, it is talking about those who will endure the great tribulation or the time of trouble I spoke about in our last study: a people whose faith does not falter even though they feel forsaken by God as Christ did at the cross. In other words, these believers will manifest the faith of Jesus and, therefore, vindicate the power of the gospel, which is able to totally delivered us from the problem of self, the fundamental principle of sin.

[pnattmbtc]

He may delegate the actual acts of vengeance to angels and even humans (Old Testament,) but the verdict and sentence meted out are entirely His decision.

In this case, it would not be true that compelling power is only found in Satan's government. It would also be the case that God's kingdom is violent by nature (or, at a minimum, has a violent aspect to it).

When we look at Jesus Christ, the revelation of God, do we see violence as a part of His character or teachings?

[Robert]

When we look at Jesus Christ, the revelation of God, do we see violence as a part of His character or teachings?

They will claim Jesus whipped and beat the money changers....The reality is Jesus made a whip to get the animals out....Also, there's no record that the money changers were at their tables or that Christ hurt them....

Rob

[Robert]

When we look at Jesus Christ, the revelation of God, do we see violence as a part of His character or teachings?

Do you know why some push this vengeful, wrath of God stuff? Well, it's in their natures so naturally they view a god in their own image...after their likeness:

Rom 3: 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know."

[John317]

So if God told you to kill me would you try? (hypothetically speaking)

Are you saying Abraham was wrong to be willing to kill Isaac at God's command? I believe he was right and that it demonstrates his great faith and obedience to God, don't you?

To answer your question directly-- hypothetically speaking, if we knew that it was God telling us to kill, yes, we should do it.

But today, unlike in the day when God ruled directly in a theocracy, we know that God won't tell people to kill others. On the contrary, His will is for us to do just exactly what He revealed to us in the NT. What is that? It is to be willing to give one's life for others-- to spend and be spent.

By the way, I know of some people-- former SDAs-- who believe and teach publicly that the God of the OT is so evil and different from the God of the NT, that they have become convinced that Yahweh is actually another name of the Devil.

That is what happens when people get confused over these issues.

There were groups of early Christians who came to the same conclusion. It shows how serious this subject is and what false understandings of it can lead some people to.

[teresaq]

There's no reference to force here. Instead, we see that Satan's being cast down is due to the fact that Satan revealed himself as a murdered, and uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. We see that Satan had a large role in his being cast down, and God's part was the employment of the prevailing power of His moral government, "truth and love."

It's pretty amazing that God can defeat a despicable and violent opponent like Satan by the weapons of truth and love.

actually we are told exactly how that happened and Christ did it in His humanity:

But at his audacious request that Christ should bow down and worship him, divinity flashed through humanity, and Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Satan had the evidence he desired in his summary dismissal, and,

under the rebuke of Him who was equal with God,

he fled from the field of conflict, a conquered foe. {ST, September 18, 1893 par. 5}

But presently they discovered that Jesus was not with them, and they turned to see what had been his fate. They beheld him standing calmly where they had left him. He who stilled the tempest, he who had met Satan before and conquered him, did not flee before these demons. When the men, gnashing their teeth, and foaming at the mouth, approached him within a few feet

Jesus raised that hand which had beckoned the waves to rest,

and the men could come no nearer.

They stood raging but helpless before him. {3Red 86.2}

[pnattmbtc]

p:As God makes His own character known, and that of the enemy, He wins the war. When all agree with Him, the war is over.

J:When do all agree with God?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC88 614.2}

Thanks for that quote, Gerry. We need to read and take into account everything, not merely a little here and a little there. Little here and little there= still little. We need it ALL.

Exactly! For example, what's the paragraph say immediately before the above?

Quote:

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. (GC 614)

And immediately following?

Quote:

Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution.

When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God.

So what's the context here? The restraining influence of the Holy Spirit and of the holy angels is removed. This is clear.

Quote:

There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.

Who is it that spreads desolation?

Quote:

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.(14MR 3, emphasis mine)

[karl]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus said that people would be punished according to what they deserve, didn't He?

What good does punishment do? If you send your kid to his room for time out most likely he has learned something, but to destroy someone has no redemptive purpose....

How can all the wicked, including Satan, agree that their sentence is just at the end of time, when you won't agree right now that it is just?

I believe that whatever God decides is just. He has proved to me that I can trust Him in every particular. But I hear you saying that if He decides to punish the wicked with death, you cannot consider that to be just.

Maybe I have misinterpreted what you are saying.

[Guest]

Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan.

Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question.

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments.

To the very close of the controversy in heaven the great usurper continued to justify himself. When it was announced that with all his sympathizers he must be expelled from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law. He reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. He denounced the divine statutes as a restriction of their liberty and declared that it was his purpose to secure the abolition of law; that, freed from this restraint, the hosts of heaven might enter upon a more exalted, more glorious state of existence.

With one accord, Satan and his host threw the blame of their rebellion wholly upon Christ, declaring that if they had not been reproved, they would never have rebelled. Thus stubborn and defiant in their disloyalty, seeking vainly to overthrow the government of God, yet blasphemously claiming to be themselves the innocent victims of oppressive power, the archrebel and all his sympathizers were at last banished from heaven. {GC 499,500}

[teresaq]

Here's GC 542:

The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character.

that is so hard for us to imagine!! as this says:

anthropomorphism (Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior) describing God’s power and majesty in very human metaphors, the only ones we have at our disposal. God often paints Himself in terms of human experience, the only medium of description we can understand.

but we get stuck there. we dont know to dig deeper than the surface.

there are so many texts like these that we overlook:

Psa 50:21 thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

and it is so hard to see the significance of these statements because we are so used to seeing something in only one light,

The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executor of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. The destruction of Jerusalem is a solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy.--Mrs. E. G. White. {YI, November 13, 1906 par. 9}

or this one:

But they forgot the instructions of their leader, and followed their own inclinations and the imagination of their own hearts, until the Lord could no longer protect them. {RH, April 23, 1901 par. 13}

[Guest]

After Satan was thrust from heaven, he determined to set up his kingdom on this earth. {CTr 19}

There was war in heaven, and Satan and his followers were cast out. Expelled from heaven, Satan determined to.... {CTr 200}

Then there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in the battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God and those who were submissive to His will. But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, was driven from heaven. {EW 145.2}

Show me where you see "Left on his own" in all of this.

Christ and His angels fought against Satan and his angels, for they were determined to remain in heaven with all their rebellion. But they prevailed not. Christ and loyal angels triumphed, and drove Satan and his rebel sympathizers from heaven. (3SG 38). {7BC 973.7}

See the part where it says they were determined to remain in Heaven? They didn't leave on their own.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

In the end those who teach that God sets folks on fire...that he slaughters...that He tortures, will become exactly that. After all God is our example....

I don't buy this argument, Robert.

Not unless we think we are God will we attempt to mimic His activities of final punishment. As Christians, we understand that vengeance does not belong to us. It belongs exclusively to God. He may delegate the actual acts of vengeance to angels and even humans (Old Testament,) but the verdict and sentence meted out are entirely His decision.

God is not our example in everything. He is not our example in confession, submission, repentance, contrition. Nor is He our example in being Judge and Executioner.

Jesus was. and He was the God-man come to reveal the Father to us.

the Father, not Himself.

[teresaq]

Quote:

We need to read and take into account everything, not merely a little here and a little there. Little here and little there= still little. We need it ALL.

Exactly! For example, what's the paragraph say immediately before the above?

Quote:

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. (GC 614)

As Jesus moved out of the Most Holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon his garment, and as he left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man, and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when Jesus stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed, and Satan had the control of man. {1SG 198.1})

(... The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation, and the Lord withdraws his protection, and leaves them to the mercy of the leader they have chosen. Satan will have power over those who have yielded themselves to his control, and he will plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble..... {4SP 440.3})

the lost had been protected from satan and didnt know it!!

[John317]

Do you know why some push this vengeful, wrath of God stuff?

God is an infinitely-loving God. This same loving God is also a just and holy God, and yes, His love of righteousness means that He is also a "vengeful God." "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord; I will replay" (Heb. 10: 30). See Deut. 32: 35; Ps. 94: 1; Is. 34: 8; Jude 7.

The Scriptures say, "A jealous and avenging God is the Lord; the Lord is avenging and wrathful. The Lord takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished" (Nahum 1: 2,3). (Compare this with the last few verses of Ezekiel 18.)

But this doesn't mean what a lot of people may think. It certainly doesn't mean that he hates anyone. It's his love that means He must destroy all sin, and that includes sinners who refuse to give up their sins. He will have a clean, all-righteous universe, because sin causes death and suffering to everyone He loves. No wonder He hates sin and no wonder He must eventually destroy it and all who insist on continuing to hold on to it.

[Guest]

Do you know why some push this vengeful, wrath of God stuff?

Because they actually believe whats in the Bible?

[John317]

Quote:

b]After Satan was thrust from heaven, he determined to set up his kingdom on this earth. {CTr 19}

There was war in heaven, and Satan and his followers were cast out. Expelled from heaven, Satan determined to.... {CTr 200}

Then there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in the battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God and those who were submissive to His will. But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, was driven from heaven. {EW 145.2}

Christ and His angels fought against Satan and his angels, for they were determined to remain in heaven with all their rebellion. But they prevailed not. Christ and loyal angels triumphed, and drove Satan and his rebel sympathizers from heaven. (3SG 38). {7BC 973.7}

Wonderful, wonderful quotes.

Let's summarize them:

1. Satan was "thrust from heaven."

2. Satan and his followers were "cast out," "expelled."

3. Satan and his followers were "driven from heaven."

4) Satan "fought" "because he was determined to remain in heaven."

5) Christ and His triumphant angels "drove Satan" from heaven.

Does anyone see anything here that would persuade them that Satan had a choice whether or not to stay in heaven? If so, which sentence(s)?

[Guest]

That pretty well sums it up.

He wanted to stay real bad according to inspiration.

[John317]

After Satan was thrust from heaven, he determined to set up his kingdom on this earth. {CTr 19}

This interesting sentence causes me to think it's possible I am wrong about Satan's immediately coming to this earth after he was driven out of heaven. I will have to study this aspect some more, both from the Bible and the SOP.

Just this sentence alone could mean that God made Satan come here and then it was only after he found himself on earth that he determined to set up his kingdom here.

Or it could be that Satan was free to go anywhere after He was driven out of heaven, and that he did go elsewhere for a time,but then eventually came here when he saw that God was creating a new and unique creature.

However, 2 Peter 2: 4, Jude 6, and Rev. 12: 4, 9, 13 definitely teach that Satan and the fallen angels were "thrown down to the earth" and the portrait the Bible paints for us is that he was committed to this earth in much the same way that a prisoner is cast into prison.

I don't know how long a time elapsed, though, between Satan's being cast out of heaven and his coming to this earth. It's possible there was quite a long time.

From what we know, then, I would have to conclude that at whatever time it was, God made Satan and the fallen angels come here, and it was then that Satan decided he would set up his kingdom on earth. He planned to become the ruler of this world. No doubt he intended to use his power here to expand his rulership to other parts of the universe, or at least to prove that God was wrong and he was right.