"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

if you have the new ellen white cd it has the pioneers on it.

I don't have a cd but would but love to get one. I do, however, have their books. I still prefer books that actually have pages I can turn back and forth. I do not much enjoy reading books online. I like to write on my books-- you know, notes and all that sort of thing.

Can you tell me what you believe they believed about the destruction of the wicked? Please give reference and names of pioneers you're talking about.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: John317

How would the above achieve any kind justice?

This is sick...sick...sick! An eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth....If I rape someone, then I'm to be raped back...Sick! This is excusing sin with sin....It's paying back evil with evil....

Sick!

That's quite a loving way to put it. :\

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

How would the above achieve any kind justice?

This is sick...sick...sick! An eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth....If I rape someone, then I'm to be raped back...Sick! This is excusing sin with sin....It's paying back evil with evil....

Sick!

So describe your view of how it will be. Try to base it as much as possible on revelation.

God is a God both of mercy and of justice. Jesus said that people would be punished according to what they deserve, didn't He? Or will people be punished according to what they do not deserve? Will they be punished at all? What say the Scriptures-- and also, for SDAs who believe in it, the Spirit of prophecy?

[pnattmbtc]

The Greek verb, bello, when used in the passive voice, as it is in Rev. 12, ALWAYS refers to the use of force. It NEVER refers to something that someone does voluntarily. For instance, the wicked are "thrown into" [eblhthh] the lake of fire.(Rev. 12: 9 uses the same form of the word, eblhthh.)

[teresaq]

Of interest is that, just before they acknowledge the righteousness of God's judgment regarding them, the wicked try to take the New Jerusalem. And AFTER Satan acknowledges the righteousness of his sentence, he attempts to stir up the troops again to take the city. They turn on him, but they do not destroy him nor do they destroy themselves.

Fire consumes them. The earth becomes a molten mass.

dont we infer that they do not destroy themselves?

this says that fire came down from heaven, (God) also: Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you."

The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executor of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. The destruction of Jerusalem is a solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy.--Mrs. E. G. White. {YI, November 13, 1906 par. 9}

[teresaq]

I've mentioned GC 542 on a number of occasions, and quoted it for you.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

if you have the new ellen white cd it has the pioneers on it.

I don't have a cd but would but love to get one. I do, however, have their books. I still prefer books that actually have pages I can turn back and forth. I do not much enjoy reading books online. I like to write on my books-- you know, notes and all that sort of thing.

the new cd is only $20, or $16 from one site sometimes. otherwise searches can be done on adventistarchives, which i do quite frequently since the early pioneers only go up to 1863.

i collect my searches and print them out for reading and am able to make notes that way, with the + of being able to file them where i wish. kinda hard to do that with books.

but if any wish to be educated on the indepth and thorough studies our pioneers did covering so much i highly recommend them, as did egw.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Greek verb, bello, when used in the passive voice, as it is in Rev. 12, ALWAYS refers to the use of force. It NEVER refers to something that someone does voluntarily. For instance, the wicked are "thrown into" [eblhthh] the lake of fire.(Rev. 12: 9 uses the same form of the word, eblhthh.)

This isn't true. I posted previously in this thread a couple of example where it didn't mean something happening to someone caused by force.

Yes, you did post that, but you evidently forgot that we are talking about the Greek verb, bello in the passive voice.

Maybe you think "force" means when someone is beaten up or smashed in the face or physically picked up and slung through the air. No. It simply means it is something that is done to someone else without their willing it.

By the way, I was looking earlier today for that post of yours in order to reply to it in detail, but I haven't found it yet. I've been kept pretty busy replying to current posts. I will look again after I finish posting this.

Quote:

Also, the Rev. 20 text you quoted says "where the beast and the false prophet are." It makes no sense to say that the beast and false prophet were case into the lake of fire by force.

What does the "beast" and the "false prophet" represent?

Rev. 20 is obviously talking about the forces of evil being destroyed. The wicked institutions and powers are people, not things. These are all destroyed. How? Certainly not voluntarily-- you think?

Quote:

Also vs. 14 uses the same verb, and says, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." You're going to argue from this that death and hell we thrown, by force, into the lake of fire?

Death and hell, of course, are symbols of the sinful works and evil results of Satan's rebellion. Death and hell certainly do not voluntarily and willingly give up their rulership in the world, do they?

No, God does this to them-- God destroys them. If it was due to the choices of the forces of evil, you could expect to see Death and Hell leaping into the lake of fire; they wouldn't be described as being "thrown into" it.

Who alone is able to "throw" Death and Hell into the lake of fire, i.e., destroy them? Certainly not the Devil, and certainly not the wicked of this world. So, that only leaves God and Christ. They deserve and receive glory and praise for destroying Death and Hell and Satan. See Rev. 19: 1,2, for instance.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And let me add this:

And the angel of the Lord went out and struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Isa 37:36 ESV.

This is problematic.

1) If God personally destroys, then why did He even create Lucifer? He knew He would sin.

The Bible does not give that answer to my knowledge. It would be pointless for me to speculate because that's all it would be - speculation.

Quote:

2) If God destroys, like in the case Gerry quoted above, then there's no need for any war. God would simply destroy the enemy.

We do have SOP explanation for why Lucifer and his followers were not immediately obliterated. God wanted the universe to see the outworking of Satan's principles. He worked by deception and it would take time for his deception to be seen for what it is.

[Gerr]

3) If God destroys then why are there serial killers on the lose? Why doesn't God destroy them? Instead they murder & rape and do sick things to people. God, according to Gerry's quote, destroyed 185,000 Assyrians, why not stop the Japanese and spare the loss of life?

4) Why not stop the terrorist from flying two planes into the Twin Towers and spare innocent lives?

These are difficult questions and I wish I could give you definitive answers but I can't. The Bible does not give me clear answers for these kind of questions. All I can rely on is God's word. The Bible says He is a God of love. He is merciful. And also just. And the Bible says it is impossible for Him to lie. So for now I have to believe that whatever He does, it is out of love & mercy, and that it is just. "Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face..."

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PS: I like my version of God, but if you guys convince me of your version (and I'm starting to lean that way a bit), well, I'll become a atheist.

I don't understand you logic at all. Does God cease to exist just because you become an atheist? You don't believe in the God that I understand the Bible to present, and neither do I believe in the God you are presenting, does that make God non-existent because neither of us believe in the other's God?

Quote:

And since your God is out for vengence, he will be very angry with you for turning me away....Maybe He will cut your throat, huh? Maybe He'll wipe your families out for causing me to reject Him.

Vengeance? I don't believe in a vengeful God, but I do believe in a God of justice!!! Love/mercy without justice is anarchy!!! Justice without love/mercy is tyranny!!!

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Seriously, if I believe the way you guys do, I'll have to reject God. We already have a devil after all....

Neither am I comfortable with the God you are presenting. Let's all study the Bible and form our own conclusions. I see it as a matter of love AND justice that an omnipotent God would use His power to limit and finally eradicate evil, and not doing so would be a dereliction of His duty as Creator and Judge.

[Guest]

Quote:

Can you explain how humans and their weapons are able to destroy spirits?

john i am with our pioneers on this.

Can we get a quote from the pioneers saying that Satan and the spirits are destroyed by human weapons?

[pnattmbtc]

Greg Boyd has written a number of books on this difficult subject (why God allows evil) three of which come to mind:

1.Satan and the Problem of Evil

2.God at War

3.Is God to Blame

The last of the three is the easiest to read, being written for the general public. The first two are more academic, but I found very interesting.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: karl

Of interest is that, just before they acknowledge the righteousness of God's judgment regarding them, the wicked try to take the New Jerusalem. And AFTER Satan acknowledges the righteousness of his sentence, he attempts to stir up the troops again to take the city. They turn on him, but they do not destroy him nor do they destroy themselves.

Fire consumes them. The earth becomes a molten mass.

dont we infer that they do not destroy themselves?

this says that fire came down from heaven, (God) also: Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you."

Please note that the quote was not attributed to God. That was the interpretation of the messenger. Even insurance companies today refer to disasters such as earthquakes and tornados as "acts of God."

Quote:

The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executor of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. The destruction of Jerusalem is a solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy.--Mrs. E. G. White. {YI, November 13, 1906 par. 9}

The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC88 614.2}

[John317]

but if any wish to be educated on the indepth and thorough studies our pioneers did covering so much i highly recommend them, as did egw.

What do you believe the viewpoint of our pioneers was in regard to the destruction of the wicked? Since you have evidently studied them in depth, what have you found? Please show evidence and give names of the pioneers you refer to. Thanks.

[John317]

Can we get a quote from the pioneers saying that Satan and the spirits are destroyed by human weapons?

Waiting. Waiting.

Truly, I think that is an idea of pretty recent origins.

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, you did post that, but you evidently forgot that we are talking about the Greek verb, bello in the passive voice.

Maybe you think "force" means when someone is beaten up or smashed in the face or physically picked up and slung through the air. No. It simply means it is something that is done to someone else without their willing it.

By the way, I was looking earlier today for that post of yours in order to reply to it in detail, but I haven't found it yet. I've been kept pretty busy replying to current posts. I will look again after I finish posting this.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's GC 542:

Quote:

The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character.

He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb?

No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.

I added 2 paragraph breaks for readability. Of special note is the last paragraph.

[John317]

Quote:

GERRY CABALO: Please note that the quote was not attributed to God. That was the interpretation of the messenger. Even insurance companies today refer to disasters such as earthquakes and tornados as "acts of God."

Indeed. The very thing I also pointed out. I'm astonished that anyone would consider the quote by an uninspired man on a level with the inspired messages of the apostle John whom Jesus promised the Holy Spirit for the purpose of teaching him all things and leading him into all truth. Also, in view of Rev. 1: 1, why would anyonme think that John's description is perhaps similar to the description in Job 1: 16?

Rev. 20: 19 is far more properly compared to the fire that came down from God and consumed the sacrifices that Elijah made on Mt. Carmel.

Quote:

The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC88 614.2}

Thanks for that quote, Gerry. We need to read and take into account everything, not merely a little here and a little there. Little here and little there= still little. We need it ALL.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Can we get a quote from the pioneers saying that Satan and the spirits are destroyed by human weapons?

Waiting. Waiting.

no one said they did, so i dont know where that thought originated from.

but they for sure werent spiritualists nor into spiritualism.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

This is sick...sick...sick! An eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth....If I rape someone, then I'm to be raped back...Sick! This is excusing sin with sin....It's paying back evil with evil....

Sick!

Or will people be punished according to what they do not deserve? Will they be punished at all?

robert, i dont see where you have said anything even remotely resembling these questions.

[karl]

In the end those who teach that God sets folks on fire...that he slaughters...that He tortures, will become exactly that. After all God is our example....

I don't buy this argument, Robert.

Not unless we think we are God will we attempt to mimic His activities of final punishment. As Christians, we understand that vengeance does not belong to us. It belongs exclusively to God. He may delegate the actual acts of vengeance to angels and even humans (Old Testament,) but the verdict and sentence meted out are entirely His decision.

God is not our example in everything. He is not our example in confession, submission, repentance, contrition. Nor is He our example in being Judge and Executioner.

[John317]

As God makes His own character known, and that of the enemy, He wins the war. When all agree with Him, the war is over.

When do all agree with God? Certainly not before the Second Coming. In fact, sadly and tragically, many more will be lost than saved. Only a relatively few will be saved when compared to the number of people who've existed. (It's important to remember this because, for one thing, many are teaching the false doctrine that is so popular today that everyone will eventually be saved. For another, it can cause people to feel less urgent about proclaiming the gospel of Christ. This doctrine is to be found even among some individuals in our own beloved church.)

All do not agree with God until it is forced out of their mouths by overwhelming evidence which they cannot deny. They are not changed by their confession. Even Satan confesses that God is just and fair, but again this occurs just before he's destroyed, as in the case also of the the rest of the wicked.

[Robert]

Jesus said that people would be punished according to what they deserve, didn't He?

What good does punishment do? If you send your kid to his room for time out most likely he has learned something, but to destroy someone has no redemptive purpose....

[Robert]

We do have SOP explanation for why Lucifer and his followers were not immediately obliterated. God wanted the universe to see the outworking of Satan's principles. He worked by deception and it would take time for his deception to be seen for what it is.

But you said that there was war in heaven....If that's the case the evidence was there!!!

[John317]

Quote:

RICHARD HOLBROOK: Can we get a quote from the pioneers saying that Satan and the spirits are destroyed by human weapons?

Quote:

TERESAQ(sda): no one said they did, so i dont know where that thought originated from.

but they for sure werent spiritualists nor into spiritualism.

So, then, what have you found in your study that our pioneers believed concerning the destruction of the wicked? I would request that references and names of pioneers be given.

Also, if you know, could you tell what any of the pioneers believed about the expelling of the devil from heaven?

You are right they weren't spiritualists. Except for Moses Hull, but then that was just before he tragically and foolishly abandoned his place in God's remnant, commandment-keeping church.

Nevertheless, there are those in our church who teach that the wicked themselves will somehow be able to destroy the evil spirits. They will evidently go to this desperate length in order to avoid the Bible teaching that it is God who destroys the wicked. This is how it now seems to me.