"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: John317

if you disagree, feel free to use the appeals process.

But the appeals process is biased.

While I may disagree with what you have to say, Robert, I defend your right to say it. IMHO it is a waste of time to participate in a "discussion" in which posts - anybody's posts - are being removed or modified by a moderator. If I were you, I would immediately move my discussion elsewhere because the thread has ceased to be a free discussion and has been moved to a sort of monologue or fenced-in conversation.

When your opinion is not wanted unless it falls inside certain parameters, your opinion is not wanted.

[Robert]

John, no one doubts God sets limitations to curtail iniquity...kind of like Obama placing restrictions on Wall Street through regulation.

My problem is you present a God of violence...a God who is brutal....That's not the God I see in Jesus....

[John317]

..."war in heaven" ...... God simply moved Lucifer and 1/3 the angels to a new location....

This part is true. "God moved them.." Indeed He did, and He had every right to move them as He did. The rebellion was not defeated or overcome in heaven.

It was-- as you say correctly, and as has been said before on this thread-- simply relocated to the earth, where it continues to this day. It has been won already by Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension, but billions of humans have still not made up their minds, so Christ waits. Many of these have not yet even so much as heard that there was/is a rebellion. God wants us to tell them about it. It's an important part of the Three Angels' Messages to all the world, including the WW Adventist Forum.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

..."war in heaven" ...... God simply moved Lucifer and 1/3 the angels to a new location....

This part is true. "God moved them.." Indeed He did, and He had every right to move them as He did. The rebellion was not defeated or overcome in heaven.

He moved them, but a truce must have been reached because while God moved Lucifer to earth he could not dominate the earth with his brand of love unless our first parents accepted him....Hence he became the god of this world after the fall:

Luke 4:5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours." 8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' "

[John317]

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[Robert]

Luke 4:5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours." 8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' "

Note Jesus did not refute his claims...

Again, some truce...some compromise must have been reached before Lucifer was "expelled"....That doesn't sound like a war to me....

[pnattmbtc]

The post you're responding to addresses your questions. Please respond to that post (or, better, start a new topic).

Here's how I hear what you're saying.

1.If something is said on a certain subject, we can never be sure that the stated thing is actually true (as stated) unless we first look at everything which is said on the subject.

2.After we look at everything that is said on a subject, then we can determine if the statement is true, as it reads, or if it needs to be amended to include exceptions.

I don't agree with this. The principle I'm familiar with is that controverted texts should be resolved by incontrovertible texts. What I've suggested is that the character of a text can be looked at, to determine if it's clearly a universal principle, possibly a universal principle, or clearly not a universal principle.

For example, consider "God cannot lie." I believe this is clearly a universal principle, and it's not necessary to consider every single text in Scripture which deals with lying to determine this.

Similarly the text "compelling power is only found under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order." is clearly a universal principle, IMO. Indeed, I don't see how it could be read any other way. Let's try substituting "compelling power" for something else. "Lying is only found under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order." Would we think, if we read something like this, that perhaps God sometimes lies?

Here's another one. "Impurity is found only in Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order." Would we think, if we read something like this, that perhaps sometimes God is impure?

Would we need to read every statement in the SOP that speaks of lying or impurity to determine whether or not God lies or is impure?

Now I don't wish to be misunderstood. I'm not against the idea of examining all that the Scripture (or the SOP) has to say in regards to a given statement; not in the least. I'm simply disputing the idea that every single thing that's clearly stated in Scripture, or the SOP, has to be put into the category of "possibly has exceptions" until every text on the issue is considered, which is what I hear you to be saying. Especially if the text itself is clear that there are no exceptions! Indeed, "X is *only found in Satan's government*" is stating as emphatically as possible that X is not found in God's government.

This should be clear. How else could she have said it to make it more clear?

[John317]

..."war in heaven" ...... God simply moved Lucifer and 1/3 the angels to a new location....

Quote:

JOHN3:17: This part is true. "God moved them.." Indeed He did, and He had every right to move them as He did. The rebellion was not defeated or overcome in heaven.

Quote:

ROBERT: He moved them, but a truce must have been reached because while God moved Lucifer to earth he could not dominate the earth with his brand of love unless our first parents accepted him....Hence he became the god of this world....

God didn't ask Satan if he wanted to move. God decreed that the Devil and the other evil angels were banished from heaven. That means they could not possibly stay in heaven under any circumstances. "Banished" means they HAD to leave. As pointed out before, "expelled," always has to do with being forced or compelled to leave.

2 Peter and Jude and Revelation all use language, such as "cast out," which clearly teaches they were "cast into tartarus and committed to pits [or chains] of darkness, reserved [kept under guard] for judgment."

In comparison with the rest of God's unfallen universe, this earth is a hell or gehenna [tartarus] and a place of darkness.

My argument here is simply that these words show that God made them come to this earth, to be kept here until the judgment.

The Greek verb, bello, when used in the passive voice, as it is in Rev. 12, ALWAYS refers to the use of force. It NEVER refers to something that someone does voluntarily. For instance, the wicked are "thrown into" [eblhthh] the lake of fire.(Rev. 12: 9 uses the same form of the word, eblhthh.) Although the wicked eventually confess that God is right, this confession does not cause them to voluntarily jump into the lake of fire. The Bible says the fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes them. Noteworthy is the fact that it's the same expression as used in the Old Testament for the fire that came down from God to consume the sacrifices Elijah built on Mt. Carmel.

[karl]

I'm not against the idea of examining all that the Scripture (or the SOP) has to say in regards to a given statement; not in the least. I'm simply disputing the idea that every single thing that's clearly stated in Scripture, or the SOP, has to be put into the category of "possibly has exceptions" until every text on the issue is considered,...

Maybe, Robert, we could approach it like a hypothesis. Pnattmbtc promotes a viewpoint (makes a hypothesis) and supports it with some data (quotes, logic.) Why could we not, for the sake of discussion, allow the hypothesis to stand until it is either refuted by other data or supported by enough data that we advance it in our minds to a substantiated hypothesis which we accept as truth.

[pnattmbtc]

As pointed out before, "expelled," always has to do with being forced or compelled to leave.

This is not correct, which was pointed out. For example, a person can be expelled from school because rules were broken, which often happens, but rarely is force involved.

"Expel" means "to cause to leave." Force is not the only thing that causes people to leave a location.

I've mentioned GC 542 on a number of occasions, and quoted it for you. I don't recall you're having responded to this. My apologies if you have, but I missed it.

[Robert]

God didn't ask Satan if he wanted to move.

[karl]

Although the wicked eventually confess that God is right, this confession does not cause them to voluntarily jump into the lake of fire. The Bible says the fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes them. Noteworthy is the fact that it's the same expression as used in the Old Testament for the fire that came down from God to consume the sacrifices Elijah built on Mt. Carmel.

Of interest is that, just before they acknowledge the righteousness of God's judgment regarding them, the wicked try to take the New Jerusalem. And AFTER Satan acknowledges the righteousness of his sentence, he attempts to stir up the troops again to take the city. They turn on him, but they do not destroy him nor do they destroy themselves.

Fire consumes them. The earth becomes a molten mass.

[Robert]

For instance, the wicked are "thrown into" [eblhthh] the lake of fire.

John...stop taking everything literal...Stop it...It's ridiculous to do so....The Bible is full of metaphors....Jesus used many Himself....

[karl]

Originally Posted By: John317

For instance, the wicked are "thrown into" [eblhthh] the lake of fire.

John...stop taking everything literal...Stop it...It's ridiculous to do so....The Bible is full of metaphors....Jesus used many Himself....

"The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." [isaiah 9:5; 34:2; 11:6. Fire comes down from God out of Heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. [Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10.] The earth's surface seems one molten mass,--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men,--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." [isaiah 34:8; Proverbs 11:31.]

[Robert]

Fire consumes them. The earth becomes a molten mass.

Again, since God has allowed iniquity to be developed by Satan, God assumes the blame for sin. Hence He says He brings down fire out of heaven....heaven being the sky. In reality God abandons the earth and it breaks up....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

As pointed out before, "expelled," always has to do with being forced or compelled to leave.

This is not correct, which was pointed out. For example, a person can be expelled from school because rules were broken, which often happens, but rarely is force involved.

"Expel" means "to cause to leave." Force is not the only thing that causes people to leave a location.

I've mentioned GC 542 on a number of occasions, and quoted it for you. I don't recall you're having responded to this. My apologies if you have, but I missed it.

Yes, I did, but it bears repeating.

Certainly "expelled from school" refers to being forced out. See dictionary definiton below. Also you might ask any student who has ever experienced being expelled.

Do school officials ask if expelled students want to leave? Clearly not.

What would happen if the student said, "I refuse to leave"?

This is exactly what Ellen White says Satan did. He said he would "resist to the point of force, strength against strength." That is when there was war in heaven. The war was not about ideas, but about throwing out a resisting Satan from heaven. This is the order of the events as given in the Spirit of prophecy.

Finally, don't you think that if a student told the school he was refusing to leave, we can be sure he would finally go, one way or the other? Or do you think the school would tell him he could stay?

What say you?

PS. The two dictionaries I have define "expelled" as "1. to drive out by force." By the way, the dictionary gives "cast out" as one of the synonymns. (Webster's New World Dictionary and Thesaurus, Macmillan, USA, 1996)

[teresaq]

PS. The two dictionaries I have define "expelled" as "1. to drive out by force." By the way, the dictionary gives "cast out" as one of the synonymns. (Webster's New World Dictionary and Thesaurus, Macmillan, USA, 1996)

since we are to let the bible explain itself, why dont we? :)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

PS. The two dictionaries I have define "expelled" as "1. to drive out by force." By the way, the dictionary gives "cast out" as one of the synonymns. (Webster's New World Dictionary and Thesaurus, Macmillan, USA, 1996)

since we are to let the bible explain itself, why dont we?

Because the word "expelled" was used by an English speaking writer. It is, of course, an English word, needing an English definiton. That is the purpose of the English dictionary.

You will notice that if it is a word that is translated into English from the Greek, I consult the Greek and not the English dictionary.

Don't you agree that it's reasonable to consult the English dictionary under the circumstances?

Let's let the Bible define the passive form of "bello". Have you checked? When you do, you will find that it is impossible for the passive form of this word to refer to anything but something that is involuntary. Passive means that it is something that is DONE TO someone. Example: the wicked are "cast into" or "thrown into" gehenna.

Consult your Greek NT for every occurence of the passive form of this word. Tell when you think you find an occurrence that refers to something someone chooses to do.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

For instance, the wicked are "thrown into" [eblhthh] the lake of fire.

"The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." [isaiah 9:5; 34:2; 11:6. Fire comes down from God out of Heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. [Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10.] The earth's surface seems one molten mass,--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men,--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." [isaiah 34:8; Proverbs 11:31.]

you left out important parts. parts that i had overlooked for years, given my "indoctrination" on this.

[John317]

you left out important parts. parts that i had overlooked for years, given my "indoctrination" on this.

What "parts" and how do you understand this passage?

Some believe that this passage shows the wicked kill each other with weapons made by the wicked themselves. I assume this is what you mean: that God merely allows them opportunity to destroy each other along with the Devil and all the other fallen spirits.

Can you explain how humans and their weapons are able to destroy spirits?

Have you studied everything Ellen White says about the Great White Throne Judgment and the final destruction of the wicked? Virtually everything she wrote about it is in the volume of her exhaustive comments on the book of Revelation. There you will see statements that make it utterly impossible for God to allow all the wicked to destroy one another. For one thing, she makes it clear that the righteous together with Christ determine the punishment of the wicked according to their deeds done in the body. How can this be if the wicked are all deciding who to kill and how to kill them? If that were the case, the death of people would be arbitrary, unless you believe God would make the punishment happen in a certain way or for a certain length of time. If the wicked are all slaughtering one another, it would be like the court sentencing murderers to be punished to death by murderers.

Another problem would be that some people-- for instance, an old lady who can barely walk and never hurt anyone intentionally-- would be killed in a terrible way at the hands of some of the most evil men who ever lived. On the other hand, many other people who deserve to suffer long would end their misery quickly by choosing to kill themselves.

Untold billions would die and suffer in ways, arbitrarily, that are not according to the decisions of the righteous and Christ after looking carefully at the lives of all these many billions of people whom God loves and does not wish to see suffer more than their sinful works deserve.

How would the above achieve any kind justice?

On indoctrination. If you were indoctrinated before, what are you now? Are you positive you are no longer indoctrinated?

There's nothing wrong with being "indoctrinated" per se.

[teresaq]

Quote:

Can you explain how humans and their weapons are able to destroy spirits?

john i am with our pioneers on this.

[John317]

Quote:

Can you explain how humans and their weapons are able to destroy spirits?

john i am with our pioneers on this.

OK. I am usually with them too.

What do you think they believed about the destruction of the wicked?

Please give name(s) of pioneer(s) and reference(s).

[Robert]

In the end those who teach that God sets folks on fire...that he slaughters...that He tortures, will become exactly that. After all God is our example....

[teresaq]

if you have the new ellen white cd it has the pioneers on it.

[Robert]

How would the above achieve any kind justice?

This is sick...sick...sick! An eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth....If I rape someone, then I'm to be raped back...Sick! This is excusing sin with sin....It's paying back evil with evil....

Sick!