"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Enoch and Elijah never died.

Yes, in the traditional sense, yet they were changed. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. The old vanished (died) and they received a new, glorified life free from all sin.

That is an invalid argument because it is not the kind of death that is being referred to in Ezekiel 18: 4. In this verse, the physical, earthly consequences of sinful behavior are being addressed (See 3: 16-21; 33: 12-20; Deut. 30: 15-20). The entire chapter concerns the fairness of God in this life. The people thought that judgment would come regardless of what they did. God is assuring them that this is not true.

Those who use the verse to say Enoch and Elijah died are saying that they died physically and literally. In fact, the Jehovah's Witnesses use the same verse that you've quoted here-- that flesh and blood cannot enter heaven-- to prove that Enoch and Elijah could not have gone to heaven.

Again, the primary reference of Ezekiel 18: 4 is to the first death. Verse 2 of the chapter shows that God is telling the people they should no longer think they will be punished for the sins of past generations. "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, 'The fathers eat the sour grapes, but the children's teeth are set on edge.'" God then assures them in verses 5 to 9 that they will only die for their own sins and not for the sins of their fathers.

Children may suffer for their parents mistakes but they will be judged and punished only for their own sins. If you read the verse in context, you will see that it wouldn't make sense if the primary reference is to the second death.

Verse 13 leaves no doubt of this: "... will he [the wicked] live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head." Then follows a description of this wicked man's son, who doesn't follow in his father's footsteps, and verse 17 concludes that this righteous son "will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live."

The entire passages loses it point if God is telling the people that the difference between the wicked and the righteous will not be seen unil after more than 3,500 years.

Ellen White in PK 127, 128 supports this view, that the subject of Ezekiel 18 is the fairness of God and that it deals with the issue of punishment in this life for sinful living. Of course, there is also punishment for sin at the execution of the Great White Judgment, but the primary subject of Ezekiel 18 is the consequences in this life of sinful behavior.

[John317]

Strong angels, with beams of light like flaming swords turning in every direction, were placed as sentinels to guard the way of the tree of life from the approach of Satan and the guilty pair. {Con 16.2}

The Bible clearly states that the angel-guard with the sword was placed at the entrance to the Garden of Eden to prevent the guilty pair from gaining access to the Garden and the tree of life. Gen. 3: 23, 24.

It is also obvious that God forced Adam and Eve out of the Garden. He did not ask them if they wanted to go, any more than He asked Satan if he wanted to leave heaven. Satan and the evil angels had no choice but to leave, and neither did Adam and Eve. The record is that "God sent him out of the garden of Eden."

All of these things are obviously the use of force. They had to leave and they absolutely could not return to it.

[BobRyan]

Ps 119 "Thy WORD is a LAMP unto my feet and a LIGHT unto my path"-- hey wait a minute -- so now LAMPS are not REAL????

rats!

Just when I thought I had that one cold!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Jehovah's Witnesses use the same argument to prove some of their false doctrines. They believe there were never any exceptions to the rule.

Can you think of any exceptions to the rule that all souls who sin shall die?

Well, how about Enoch and Elijah? Weren't they sinners? Why, yes, they sure were. Of course. Did they ever die? NO.

So there are your exceptions to the rule.

There are no exceptions. Your explanation is simply not understand what the verse means. The principle that the soul that sinneth shall die is 100% true, and is in reference to the second death, not the first.

You are taking Ezekiel 18: 4 out of context. My understanding of Ezekiel 18 is based on careful exegesis and analysis of the entire chapter, and my conclusions agree with the SDA Bible commentary as well as with every commentary that I have seen on these texts. The fact that the righteous who are alive when Christ returns will NEVER die proves that not all souls who sin shall die. As stated already, also, Enoch and Elijah never died but went to heaven without seeing death, although they were sinners.

Ezekiel 18: 4 and the rest of the chapter are dealing primarily with the first death, not the second. See below for quotes from the SDA Bible Commentary affirming this viewpoint.

The question being discussed is God's fairness in punishing the Israelites for the sins of their fathers. It's not a discussion of whether God will judge them fairly at the final Judgment of the Great White Throne. God is assuring them that He is fair and won't punish or judge them for the sins of others but only punish them for their own sins. The same point is made in Ezekiel 3: 16-21; 33: 12-20 and Deut. 30: 15-20.

The SDA Bible Commentary says, "Ezekiel was speaking primarily of the immediately impending judgments..." And concerning verse 9, the same commentary says, "Ezekiel doubtless intended these words to apply primarily to temporal prosperity..."

"Ezekiel's contemporaries insisted that they suffered for their fathers' guilt." See the entire SDA Bible Commentary, pp. 638, 639, on Ezekiel 18.

I haven't seen a single Bible commentary which says chapter 18 is talking primarily about the second death. Neither do the notes in any of my study Bibles.

For instance, the comment on Ezekiel 18 in the Nelson Study Bible says, "Their false belief was that they were being punished for the sins of previous generations. Their sin was that of becoming insenitive and irresponsible, since they thought judgment would come regardless of what they might do.... In this verse (v. 4) the physical, earthly consequencces of sinful behavior are being addressed."

I could give many more such comments from other well-respected study Bibles, all saying the same thing, that Ezekiel 18 primarily has to do with the first death.

Finally, it's not enough merely to deny what I'm saying, but you need to show evidence and valid exegetical reasons for saying what you do. Perhaps you could also give quotes from good Bible commentaries which say the chapter primarily deals with the second death and explain why they believe this.

[BobRyan]

The facinating thing is that the force against force - strength against strength that

we see in Rev 12 - described accurately as "WAR in heaven" where the devil and his angels are "cast out" -- fits perfectly with the WAR context

we see in Rev 19 when Christ appears at His second coming and all the commanders of the armies of earth (and presumably including the armies of the "god of this world" 2Cor 4) -- and also fits the WAR context that

we see in Rev 20 when "once again" the "god of this world" takes a stand against God the Son.

In all cases - force is used.

Hence the "strenght against strength" description we see here -

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post326873

So consistent with Rev 12, and Rev 19 and Rev 20

[BobRyan]

Are we now to use the RH quote about "beams of light" to interpret the "flaming sword" of Genesis?

If we all agree to toss exegesis out the window -- then the "game" that can then be played -- is simply randomly looking for words -- ignoring when they are used as figures of speech or symobols -- vs used as literal things -- then cut-and-paste as suits your fancy.

Thus your reference to "flaming sword" can be whittled with Eph 6 "the SWORD of the Spirit which is the WORD of God" - when playing that "game".

But as we all know -- As fun as that game is to play -- it is not even close to exegesis.

So we have to decide whether the interest is to simply "play a game" or to be a serious student of the text.

To each their own.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Well, how about Enoch and Elijah? Weren't they sinners? Why, yes, they sure were. Of course. Did they ever die? NO.

Yes, they died, but it was in moment..in the twinkling of any eye. They did not take a sinful humanity to heaven. Instead they received a glorified humanity in its place. What happened to the old life? It vanished...it died.

So "the soul that sins it shall die" stands true....

[John317]

We all make mistakes.

My reference to the teachings and study methods of the Jehovah's Witnesses is no mistake. It's apropos to the topic and is an illustration of certain false ways of studying the Bible which should be avoided.

Quote:

(I've also not been in this forum long, so can't comment on any experiences you may have had previous to my coming here.)

You're referring to a poster who herself has not been here for very long, having registered on 4-01-09.

[Robert]

That is an invalid argument because it is not the kind of death that is being referred to in Ezekiel 18: 4. In this verse, the physical, earthly consequences of sinful behavior are being addressed (See 3: 16-21; 33: 12-20; Deut. 30: 15-20).

[Guest]

Who told you this Robert?

[pnattmbtc]

p:We all make mistakes.

J:My reference to the teachings and study methods of the Jehovah's Witnesses is no mistake. It's apropos to the topic and is an illustration of certain false ways of studying the Bible which should be avoided.

[teresaq]

Strong angels, with beams of light like flaming swords turning in every direction, were placed as sentinels to guard the way of the tree of life from the approach of Satan and the guilty pair. {Con 16.2}

[pnattmbtc]

The question being discussed is God's fairness in punishing the Israelites for the sins of their fathers. It's not a discussion of whether God will judge them fairly at the final Judgment of the Great White Throne.

If this is your point, why did you bring up Elijah and Enoch? They have nothing to do with this.

[pnattmbtc]

R:The principal(sic) that God cannot lie is valid because it comes from the Bible itself. Not so with principals you make up, or get from other places. That's why I say that principals you call universal are not universal at all, except in your mind.

J:This is true, and a very important point that some do not appear to understand or grasp.

One is a plain statement of Scripture and the other, which is used to conclude that God did not force Satan out of heaven, is arrived at by invalid deduction.

[Guest]

Like John has pointed out, there are exceptions to almost every rule. This is not a principle that can be applied to every situation, because God has used force many times throughout the Bible. This is where you get into saying the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

There are no exceptions. Your explanation is simply not understand what the verse means. The principle that the soul that sinneth shall die is 100% true, and is in reference to the second death, not the first.

You are taking Ezekiel 18: 4 out of context. My understanding of Ezekiel 18 is based on careful exegesis and analysis of the entire chapter, and my conclusions agree with the SDA Bible commentary as well as with every commentary that I have seen on these texts. The fact that the righteous who are alive when Christ returns will NEVER die proves that not all souls who sin shall die. As stated already, also, Enoch and Elijah never died but went to heaven without seeing death, although they were sinners.

Ezekiel 18: 4 and the rest of the chapter are dealing primarily with the first death, not the second. See below for quotes from the SDA Bible Commentary affirming this viewpoint.

The question being discussed is God's fairness in punishing the Israelites for the sins of their fathers. It's not a discussion of whether God will judge them fairly at the final Judgment of the Great White Throne. God is assuring them that He is fair and won't punish or judge them for the sins of others but only punish them for their own sins. The same point is made in Ezekiel 3: 16-21; 33: 12-20 and Deut. 30: 15-20.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Well, how about Enoch and Elijah? Weren't they sinners? Why, yes, they sure were. Of course. Did they ever die? NO.

Yes, they died, but it was in moment..in the twinkling of any eye. They did not take a sinful humanity to heaven. Instead they received a glorified humanity in its place. What happened to the old life? It vanished...it died.

So "the soul that sins it shall die" stands true....

Your argument here does not hold water. Here's why:

First of all, the Bible never refers to this change from mortal to immortality as "dying," or "death". 1 Cor. 15: 52 says the "change" will occur "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." Scripture does not call this "change" death or dying.

Secondly, the sense in which you use the word "died" in regard to the living righteous or to Enoch and Elijah is not the same as the death that is referred to in Ezekiel 18: 4. It is talking about literal, physical death of the whole person. What you are talking about-- the living righteous changing from mortality to immortality-- is never called "death" or "dying." If you believe it is, please quote the Bible and give the reference.

Thirdly, The righteous living will not die when Christ returns. There's not a single passage in Scripture which says the living righteous die when Christ returns.

In fact, 1 Cor. 15: 51-55 specifically denies that the righteous who are still alive when Christ come back, die at all. It says, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." Since "sleep" here is a reference to "death," the sentence means, "We shall not all die" (TEV). That is how many modern translations read.

Again, the mortal putting on immortality is never referred to as death or dying. Scripture says, "The mortal puts on immortality." It doesn't say the "mortal vanishes" or "dies." It says that the mortal shall "change," or "put on" immortality, not that it will die or vanish. Christ's return destroys death; His coming, or presence, does not cause any of the righteous to die in any manner of speaking.

In 2 Cor. 5: 4, Paul speaks of the change which takes place in those who are alive at the Second Coming as "this mortality [being] swallowed up by life." It does not say anything about the death of this mortality-- or the death of the bodies of the righteous living-- in order to put on immortality.

Please quote the Bible or SOP statement showing that those who are alive and translated at the Second Coming die. They are translated so as not to see death, just as Enoch was. Hebrews 11: 5. "He did not see death... Before he was taken he had this testimony that he pleased God." Ellen White says that Enoch and Elijah are representative of those who will be translated without seeing death.

[Guest]

That's right John.

[John317]

JOHN3:17: You are taking Ezekiel 18: 4 out of context. My understanding of Ezekiel 18 is based on careful exegesis and analysis of the entire chapter, and my conclusions agree with the SDA Bible commentary as well as with every commentary that I have seen on these texts. The fact that the righteous who are alive when Christ returns will NEVER die proves that not all souls who sin shall die. As stated already, also, Enoch and Elijah never died but went to heaven without seeing death, although they were sinners.

Ezekiel 18: 4 and the rest of the chapter are dealing primarily with the first death, not the second. See below for quotes from the SDA Bible Commentary affirming this viewpoint.

The question being discussed is God's fairness in punishing the Israelites for the sins of their fathers. It's not a discussion of whether God will judge them fairly at the final Judgment of the Great White Throne. God is assuring them that He is fair and won't punish or judge them for the sins of others but only punish them for their own sins. The same point is made in Ezekiel 3: 16-21; 33: 12-20 and Deut. 30: 15-20.

Quote:

TERESAQ(SDA): The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {FLB 177.3}

The above quote from Ellen White is true-- the wicked will die an eternal death-- but this fact is not evidence that the second death is the primary reference intended in Ezekiel 18: 4. As I said in a previous post-- and as the SDA Bible Commentary also says-- this verse is secondarily referring to the death of the wicked at the end of the 1000 years,but the primary reference is the first death. I have shown the evidence from the chapter itself which demonstrates that this is so. I do not know of any Bible scholars who write on this text who disagree with this. Do you? If so, give their name and the reference, please. Also give their reasons for believing as they do.

The verse is often correctly quoted to show that the soul of man dies, and of course we know that the wicked souls (people) will die eternally at the end of the 1000 years. Both statements are true-- the soul that sins will die the first death and will ultimately die the second death as well if his sins are not forgiven and blotted out in the Heavenly sanctuary. Both truths are pointed out in the SDA Bible Commentary on Ezekiel 18, yet, as already said, the commentary specifically describes the first death as the one being primarily referred to in chapter 18.

Ezekiel 18: 25, 29 is an accusation against God because of what the people see as evidence of unfairness in the present life. The proverb given in the second verse is not about the final judgment or eternal death. It's about the punishment they believed they were undergoing in the prsent life for the sins of previous generations. See the discussion in the SDA Bible Commentary on Ezekiel 18.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Finally, it's not enough merely to deny what I'm saying, but you need to show evidence and valid exegetical reasons for saying what you do. Perhaps you could also give quotes from good Bible commentaries which say the chapter primarily deals with the second death and explain why they believe this.

Quote:

TERESAQ (SDA): john, you do know that these commentaries you are going by are by people who do not know about a "first" and "second" death, right? remember, they believe in soul immortality and that man goes to hell or heaven (or pergatory be one catholic) upon "death", so of course their explanations are going to reflect that.

I don't accept what they teach on the immortality of the soul, of course, but the fact that a commentator is wrong about some doctrines does not mean they are unreliable about all theological matters. I think it's significant that they are all in agreement with the SDA Bible Commentary as regards the primary reference of Ezekiel 18: 4ff. One must consider the evidence and reasons they produce to show why they take their position.

I've given you analysis of the chapter itself as well as the SDA Bible Commentary to show that Ezekiel 18 is referring primarily to the first death. All commentaries-- SDA as well as non-SDA-- agree. Can you find any that do not?

Can you show how their mistaken belief about the immortality of the soul would cause them to be wrong about the primary subject of Ezekiel 18: 4. Can you show a clear relationship?

You have produced no evidence from the chapter itself to show that it's speaking of the second death. All you have done fundamentally is deny that it speaks of the first death.

The fact that some commentaries are wrong about the nature of man in death is not itself valid grounds for disbelieving the evidence they produce to show what the primary reference is in Ezekiel 18: 4ff. Any good Bible student using valid exegetical principles will come to the same conclusion.

Does it make sense to you that God's answer to the proverb in Ezekiel 18: 2 would be to tell them about the second death? The people are talking about God's unfairness in punishing them for the sins of their parents. How does talking about the second death answer this charge of unfairness against God?

The people are not saying God's final judgment is unfair. They are saying their current "punishment" is unfair because they themselves haven't done anything to deserve it. They blame their parents, not themselves. So in this chapter God is giving them assurance that their ideas about this are wrong.

How, then, does referring to the second death help them to believe that they won't be punished in the present life for the sins of the previous generations and that they should stop their fatalistic approach? That is the issue these people are raising and the one that God is speaking to.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

One is a plain statement of Scripture and the other, which is used to conclude that God did not force Satan out of heaven, is arrived at by invalid deduction.

What is not plain about these statements?

Quote:

Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order.(DA 759)

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government.(DA 22)

Because when taken in their context, it is plain that they are not saying God has never used force at any time under any circumstances, and that is what you are trying to force these statements into saying. To do so is to make the Bible and Ellen White contradict themselves.

DA 759 is given in the context of explaining why God did not destroy Satan but allowed him to go on living in order to demonstrate his character and the results of Satan's way.

Ellen White is saying that Satan's rebellion is not going to be overcome by force. It wasn't. It was overcome by Christ's life, death, and resurrection. But that does not mean that God never used force in the past and that he will never use force in the future. It means that God will never use force as the "prevailing power" to win the great controversy. To do that, God uses truth and justice and love.

In the Flood, God did use force, but that force was based on truth, love, and justice.

DA 22 is given in the context of the statement that "Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force." " ... He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority."

Like the quote in DA 759, this quote is not saying God never uses force under any circumstance, but that God doesn't use it to break the deceptive power of Satan or to get people to love Him. He will not force people to accept Him or to believe that Satan is wrong and God is right.

Notice that God's throwing Satan out of heaven and down onto this earth did not break the deceptive power of Satan. Nor did that act get people to love Him or make anyone accept Him or to believe that Satan was wrong and God right. How did God accomplish these things? By persuasion-- through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. This is what manifested the contrast between the character of God and the character of Satan, and this is what won the great controversy. During the great controversy, there are times when God must use force, such as throwing Satan out of heaven, the Flood, Sodom, the Exodus, and the final destruction of the wicked-- but these are not what wins the universe back to faith in God.

When the wicked are finally destroyed, Satan has already been unmasked and the whole universe-- except for the wicked-- has already been won back to faith in, and love for, God. These things are not accomplished through force. They are accomplished through love, truth, mercy and justice.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Didn't God force Adam and Eve to leave the Garden of Eden?

Gen 3:23 So the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to be a worker on the earth from which he was taken. 24 So he sent the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden he put winged ones and a flaming sword turning every way to keep the way to the tree of life.

So the answer is obviously yes.

Adam and Eve were not asked if they would like to leave the Garden. They were told they would have to leave it. God sent them out. And then God placed a guard so that the guilty pair could not get back inside the Garden.

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JOHN3:17: Doesn't He force the Devil to remain on this desolate earth during the 1000 years?

Quote:

ROBERT: He limits his access to other unfallen worlds. There's a barrier....He places limits on iniquity or else all of us would have slaughtered each other by now.

So, again, the answer is yes-- God uses force to keep Satan "chained" to the desolate earth during the 1000 years. He does not choose to remain on earth-- he is compelled to stay here. Hence the reference to Satan's being "chained" and "bound" in a "prison." (cf. Rev. 20: 1-3, 7.)

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JOHN3:17: Once He withdrew from Saul, God knew that Saul would die.

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ROBERT: But that wasn't God's fault....God assumed the blame for the results of sin until the day of Atonement where He places the actual blame for sin on Satan. Until then God assumes the blame as if He did theses things Himself.

I never said it was God's fault. I believe God was right to do what He did. Of course God wanted Saul to do right and be saved. God loved Saul. God was not opposed to Saul until Saul turned against God. God didn't force Saul to disobey and reject God; yet once Saul rejected God, God's will was for Saul to die and the throne turned over to His faithful servant David. It certainly was not God's will for Saul to survive that battle and go on ruling as king. The Bible says Saul died because He rejected God. "Saul died FOR his unfaithfulness" and "BECAUSE he did not keep the word of the Lord... THEREFORE God killed Saul." 1 Cor. 11: 13, 14.

I don't see these statements as making God look bad.

[Robert]

That is an invalid argument because it is not the kind of death that is being referred to in Ezekiel 18: 4. In this verse, the physical, earthly consequences of sinful behavior are being addressed (See 3: 16-21; 33: 12-20; Deut. 30: 15-20).

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Enoch and Elijah never died.

Yes, in the traditional sense, yet they were changed. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. The old vanished (died) and they received a new, glorified life free from all sin.

Undergoing a change from mortality to immortality does not necessitate dying.

It doesn't say the "old vanished" or "died." It says it "changed" and "put on" immortality. You are using words in a way the Bible never does.

The Bible-- not tradition-- says that Enoch and Elijah did not die.

Give me the verse where it says Enoch died in any sense of the word, or where it says the righteous who are alive at Christ's coming will "die."

You appear to be inventing expressions and ideas such as that Enoch died, which the Bible never uses, in order to avoid the obvious truth that not everyone who sins dies.

I'm astonished that you would go to such lengths-- as to say that the righteous living "die" and that Enoch "died"-- in order to defend the view that God did not force Satan out of heaven.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The question being discussed is God's fairness in punishing the Israelites for the sins of their fathers. It's not a discussion of whether God will judge them fairly at the final Judgment of the Great White Throne.

If this is your point, why did you bring up Elijah and Enoch? They have nothing to do with this.

Because you and others have said that the statement, "the soul that sins shall die," is a universal principle which applies to everyone. I am saying there are exceptions to the rule and that the statement in Ezekiel 18: 4 has to do primarily with the first death. The exceptions are Enoch, Elijah, and the righteous who are translated at Christ's coming without seeing death. They are all sinners, yet they will never have died. The book of Hebrews is clear that Enoch, a sinner, did not die; and 1 Thessalonians teaches that righteous who are alive at Christ's parousia will never die.

This goes to the point about how we study the Bible. If you read the statement in Ezekiel 18: 4 and conclude that it's a universal principle, you will conclude that Enoch and Elijah cannot have gone to heaven without seeing death. (This is precisely what the Jehovah's Witnesses do.) But if you look carefully at all the verses before drawing your conclusions about it, you will conclude that there are some exceptions to the rule. It's the difference between the deductive and the inductive methods of Bible study. The deductive may cause you to conclude that God could not have forced Satan out of heaven, whereas the inductive method of study would cause you to decide that God did throw Satan out of heaven and down to the earth.

[Robert]

It doesn't say the "old vanished" or "died." It says it "changed" and "put on" immortality. You are using words in a way the Bible never does.

If I don't take certain things to heaven with me what happened to them?

For example, I won't take "indwelling sin" with me. It's not something a doctor can remove by an operation. Our sin nature is in our members...it's in our DNA. That's why David could say, "I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Note David was sinful from conception. Why? He received the fallen life of Adam - a life bent towards self...i.e., full of iniquity.

Not only does our sinful nature cease to exist, but our sexual apparatus goes too. As Jesus said, "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

So what happens to our sexual identity? What happens to a woman's womb, her breasts, etc? Where did it go?

Here's the thing at the resurrection we receive a new life and not the old one fixed up. Where did all those things go?