"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

It could be that the torture is more mental than physical as these sinners see the full ramification of their sin. The Bible tells us they prefer death to facing their Judge.

Or, more to the point, then to facing their Redeemer.

When you say the "torture" is more mental than physical, do you mean to imply that physical torture is also involved? (i.e., there is physical torture involved, but the mental torture is even worse). Or did you mean that rather than being physical torture (i.e. being burned by a literal fire) they are mentally tortured (by their own sin; recognizing their own guilt, etc.)?

I have no idea. Just trying to make sense of it. I don't think we have to get spastic about the language of the Bible. We can consider things slowly and carefully. We can compare line upon line and precept upon precept.

The Bible does seem clear that destructive things happen when God and sin are thrown together. Kinda like kryptonite for sinners.

God raining fire down upon them. Where have we seen that concept before? The Holy Ghost! Now, how could that have such a positive effect on the disciples and such a destructive effect on unrepentant sinners?

Well, the Holy Ghost convicts both ways - of sin and of righteousness.

[pnattmbtc]

I have no idea. Just trying to make sense of it. I don't think we have to get spastic about the language of the Bible. We can consider things slowly and carefully. We can compare line upon line and precept upon precept.

The Bible does seem clear that destructive things happen when God and sin are thrown together. Kinda like kryptonite for sinners.

God raining fire down upon them. Where have we seen that concept before? The Holy Ghost! Now, how could that have such a positive effect on the disciples and such a destructive effect on unrepentant sinners?

Well, the Holy Ghost convicts both ways - of sin and of righteousness.

Ok. I'm trying to get an idea of where you're coming from. It sounds like you may be seeing things here similarly to how I do.

[Gerr]

Quote:

i dont remember anywhere where the victim was not slain first before burning.

And you won't find it either. The Lord's goat that was offered as atonement for sin was slain, whereas the Azazel goat was sent into the wilderness alive.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I agree with the sentiment expressed here, that God has proven Himself trustworthy, but don't understand how you can relate "God of love and justice and mercy" to "set people on fire to make them suffer for days." It's amazing to not see the disconnect here.

There is a disconnect if you can't see that the punishment should fit the crime. If Cain who murdered one person that we know of gets exactly the same sentence as Stalin or Hitler or Satan, then I think there would be gross miscarriage of justice.

[pnattmbtc]

p:I agree with the sentiment expressed here, that God has proven Himself trustworthy, but don't understand how you can relate "God of love and justice and mercy" to "set people on fire to make them suffer for days." It's amazing to not see the disconnect here.

G:There is a disconnect if you can't see that the punishment should fit the crime. If Cain who murdered one person that we know of gets exactly the same sentence as Stalin or Hitler or Satan, then I think there would be gross miscarriage of justice.

But who would make the sentence setting someone on fire? That's barbarous. Even in this sin-cursed earth, no earthly government sets people on fire to punish them, even a Hitler or Stalin.

Would you set your children on fire to punish them, regardless of what they did? Assuming no, why do you think God, who is good, would do so to His creatures, whom He loves?

There's nothing in the law that suggests people should be burned alive for breaking it.

[Gerr]

Quote:

This is a really interesting point. Yes, God can only communicate to us in language that we can understand. If He were to communicate to us through a prophet now, I'm sure the language would include cars, televisions, and the internet. We read that in heaven things are written in books (actually scrolls), and think this must be literal. But why would heaven be limited to books? (or actually scrolls) Surely the angels recording our sins and good works could use something better than pen and scroll. But this is what they had in the past, so what good would it have done to speak of computers or videos to those who would have had no clue as to what these were. And perhaps this is really crude compared to the technology of heaven, which would be beyond what we can comprehend.

What's really tricky is figuring out when something is an anthropomorphism and when it's not. This isn't at all clear, but many cry out "this is what the Bible says!" One man's anthropomorphism is another man's literal truth.

Exactly! But while the prophets' words about books/scrolls are to be understood as metaphors , what they are telling me in a literal way is that there is a record!

In the same manner, inspiration uses the word "wrath" that expresses the strongest human emotion towards something/somebody to express God's attitude/antipathy toward sin. Ditto "war", the strongest human word to describe a hostile conflict between two parties to describe the conflict that occurred in heaven. That's why I find it difficult to accept interpretations of scripture that try to lessen the force of the words the prophets use.

As I see it, until we speak the language of heaven, although the Bible may be speaking in metaphors, I cannot see diminishing the force of the words the prophets use.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The Bible does seem clear that destructive things happen when God and sin are thrown together. Kinda like kryptonite for sinners.

Deut 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

So sin and sinners cannot exist in His presence.

[pnattmbtc]

Exactly! But while the prophets' words about books/scrolls are to be understood as metaphors , what they are telling me in a literal way is that there is a record!

In the same manner, inspiration uses the word "wrath" that expresses the strongest human emotion towards something/somebody to express God's attitude/antipathy toward sin. Ditto "war", the strongest human word to describe a hostile conflict between two parties to describe the conflict that occurred in heaven. That's why I find it difficult to accept interpretations of scripture that try to lessen the force of the words the prophets use.

As I see it, until we speak the language of heaven, although the Bible may be speaking in metaphors, I cannot see diminishing the force of the words the prophets use.

What do you see being diminished? Can God hate sin without setting sinners on fire? Can there be a hostile conflict between two parties which is not decided by force? What do you see that's lessening the force of the words the prophets use?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

p:I agree with the sentiment expressed here, that God has proven Himself trustworthy, but don't understand how you can relate "God of love and justice and mercy" to "set people on fire to make them suffer for days." It's amazing to not see the disconnect here.

G:There is a disconnect if you can't see that the punishment should fit the crime. If Cain who murdered one person that we know of gets exactly the same sentence as Stalin or Hitler or Satan, then I think there would be gross miscarriage of justice.

But who would make the sentence setting someone on fire? That's barbarous. Even in this sin-cursed earth, no earthly government sets people on fire to punish them, even a Hitler or Stalin.

Would you set your children on fire to punish them, regardless of what they did? Assuming no, why do you think God, who is good, would do so to His creatures, whom He loves?

There's nothing in the law that suggests people should be burned alive for breaking it.

God is described as a consuming fire. Anything combustible that comes close to Him will be consumed. And the Bible says He will purify this sin-cursed planet with fire. Was it barbaric for God cleanse it once with water and in the end with fire? He has given ample time and warning about what He will do. Would He not be a laughing stock if He does not do what He said?

[karl]

Quote:

I agree with the sentiment expressed here, that God has proven Himself trustworthy, but don't understand how you can relate "God of love and justice and mercy" to "set people on fire to make them suffer for days." It's amazing to not see the disconnect here.

There is a disconnect if you can't see that the punishment should fit the crime. If Cain who murdered one person that we know of gets exactly the same sentence as Stalin or Hitler or Satan, then I think there would be gross miscarriage of justice.

We need to bear in mind that God's first choice of retaliation for sin is to convert the sinner. We've been talking about what happens when the sinner refuses to be brought into God's protective salvation.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN317: He was not offered a choice at that point.

Quote:

PNATTMBTC: He was offered a choice. God offered to pardon him and restore him to his position if he would repent.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: He could not possibly have stayed in heaven under any circumstances.

Quote:

PNATTMBTC: He could have stayed had he repented.

When God decreed that Satan was banished, He did not offer the evil angels a choice. They had to leave. (See clear proof of this below, in quotes from the first volume of S of P.) Ellen White says God told them to leave, but Satan refused and resisted, and that is when there was war in heaven.

It is true that up to the point of the decree, Satan was given an opportunity to repent, but he refused; and after he was settled into his rebellion, God told him there was no more a place for him in heaven. It was too late repent. He had made himself into the Devil by that time. At the time of the war, he was no longer Lucifer, the light bearer, but Satan and the Devil.

Carefully study the order of events.

GC 498-- "Even when IT WAS DECIDED that he [satan] COULD NO LONGER REMAIN IN HEAVEN, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan."

GC 499, 504-- "Had he [satan] been IMMEDIATELY blotted from existence, they [the inhabitants of heaven and other worlds] would have served God from fear rather than from love... Evil must be permitted to come to maturity... The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE HIS LOVE and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight do do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest."

When does "NOW" refer to? Answer: it refers to the time when the wicked are finally destroyed, after Satan's character has been proved and after the Great White Throne Judgment. Then is when Satan will be blotted from existence. THIS WILL NOW VINDICATE GOD'S LOVE AND ESTABLISH HIS HONOR BEFORE THE UNIVERSE.

GC 499-- "When IT WAS ANNOUNCED that with all his sympathizers HE MUST BE EXPELLED from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law."

NOTE: We thus see that the choice to repent ended at the time it was announced Satan was banished. He had no choice at that point. He could not possibly remain in heaven. He absolutely HAD TO LEAVE.

But he refused to go. That is when Satan declared that he would fight to keep his place in heaven, "to the point of force, strength against strength." So the war came. We know the rest: Satan and his evil, foolish angels were "thrust out, " "expelled," "cast out," "thrown out," "banished."

This was obviously against their will. GC 499-- "To the very close of the controversy in heaven the great usurper continued to justify himself. When IT WAS ANNOUNCED that with all his sympathizers HE MUST BE EXPELLED from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law."

GC 500-- "In the banishment of Satan from heaven, God declared His justice and maintained the honor of His throne.

At no time does Ellen White say Satan was given a choice to repent right up to when he was expelled from heaven. That opportunity had already passed.

Ellen White makes it clear in the first volume of The Spirit of Prophecy, pp. 22, 23, that the war in heaven occurred AFTER God decreed that Satan was banished. She says that God "informed Satan" that God "required all the family in Heaven, even Satan, to yield [God's Son] implicit obedience; BUT THAT HE (Satan) HAD PROVED HIMSELF UNWORTHY A PLACE IN HEAVEN.... GOD DECLARED THAT THE REBELLIOUS SHOULD REMAIN IN HEAVEN NO LONGER.... THEN THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN.... the Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were EXPELLED from heaven."

NOTE: Observe that Ellen White says that the utter extermination of Satan which before would have brought fear to the angels WILL NOW VINDICATE GOD'S LOVE AND ESTABLISH HIS HONOR. In other words, by the time the controversy is over-- i.e., at the Great White Throne Judgment-- the utter extermination of Satan and all sin will not be viewed in the way it would have been if God had immediately blotted Satan from existence. The punishment of Satan and his followers will THEN finally be viewed as a vindication of God's character, exactly as Revelation 15: 3,4; 16: 5,7 and Ellen White say. At that time, the decision of the whole universe will indeed be, "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments."

Read the passage again:

GC 499, 504-- "Had he [satan] been IMMEDIATELY blotted from existence, they [the inhabitants of heaven and other worlds] would have served God from fear rather than from love... Evil must be permitted to come to maturity... The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE HIS LOVE and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight do do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest."

[teresaq]

John are you compromising with the serpent? She also said that Satan was determined to stay, and that he was thrust out of heaven. Does that sound like he was asked to leave? The Bible calls it war. I think that would be the wrong word for just asking someone to leave. And what about this?

He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to defend his place in Heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {1SP 22}

That doesn't sound like he was willing to go peacefully. Sounds like he probably got maced, or worse.

[John317]

When Joseph and Mary found Jesus in the Temple, "they were amazed, and His mother said unto Him, Son, why hast Thou thus dealt with us? behold, Thy father and I have sought Thee sorrowing. And He said unto them, How is it that ye sought Me?" Pointing heavenward, He continued, "Wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?" Divinity flashed through humanity. The light and glory of heaven illuminated His countenance. But "they understood not the saying which He spake unto them. And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but His mother kept all these sayings in her heart." {5MR 103.2}

Good quote. It's more evidence that Jesus Christ was truly and fully God even while a child on this earth.

GC 499, 504-- "Had he [satan] been IMMEDIATELY blotted from existence, they [the inhabitants of heaven and other worlds] would have served God from fear rather than from love... Evil must be permitted to come to maturity... The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE HIS LOVE and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight do do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest."

Ellen White makes it clear in the first volume of The Spirit of Prophecy, pp. 22, 23, that the war in heaven occurred AFTER God decreed that Satan was banished. She says that God "informed Satan" that God "required all the family in Heaven, even Satan, to yield [God's Son] implicit obedience; BUT THAT HE (Satan) HAD PROVED HIMSELF UNWORTHY A PLACE IN HEAVEN.... GOD DECLARED THAT THE REBELLIOUS SHOULD REMAIN IN HEAVEN NO LONGER.... THEN THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN.... the Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were EXPELLED from heaven."

NOTE: Observe that Ellen G. White says that the utter extermination of Satan which before would have brought fear to the angels WILL NOW VINDICATE GOD'S LOVE AND ESTABLISH HIS HONOR. In other words, by the time the controversy is over-- i.e., at the Great White Throne Judgment-- the utter extermination of Satan and all sin will not be viewed in the way it would have been if God had immediately blotted Satan from existence. The punishment of Satan and his followers will THEN finally be viewed as a vindication of God's character, exactly as Revelation 15: 3,4; 16: 5,7 and Ellen White say. At that time, the decision of the whole universe will indeed be, "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments."

The quote is worth repeating: "Had he [satan] been IMMEDIATELY blotted from existence, they [the inhabitants of heaven and other worlds] would have served God from fear rather than from love... Evil must be permitted to come to maturity... The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE HIS LOVE and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight do do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest." GC 499, 504

Question: When does "NOW" refer to?

Answer: it refers to the time after Satan's character has been proved and after the Great White Throne Judgment, when the wicked are finally consumed by fire that comes down from God out of heaven. That is when Satan will be blotted from existence. As Ellen White says, THIS WILL NOW VINDICATE GOD'S LOVE AND ESTABLISH HIS HONOR BEFORE THE UNIVERSE.

[pnattmbtc]

GC 499, 504-- "Had he [satan] been IMMEDIATELY blotted from existence, they [the inhabitants of heaven and other worlds] would have served God from fear rather than from love... Evil must be permitted to come to maturity... The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE HIS LOVE and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight do do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest."

[pnattmbtc]

The quote is worth repeating: "Had he [satan] been IMMEDIATELY blotted from existence, they [the inhabitants of heaven and other worlds] would have served God from fear rather than from love... Evil must be permitted to come to maturity... The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE HIS LOVE and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight do do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest." GC 499, 504

Question: When does "NOW" refer to?

Answer: it refers to the time after Satan's character has been proved and after the Great White Throne Judgment, when the wicked are finally consumed by fire that comes down from God out of heaven. That is when Satan will be blotted from existence. As Ellen White says, THIS WILL NOW VINDICATE GOD'S LOVE AND ESTABLISH HIS HONOR BEFORE THE UNIVERSE.

DA 764 tells us that had God "left" Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished, but this would have been misunderstood, as it was not at this point understood that death is "the inevitable power of sin." GC 543 tells us the exclusion from heaven of the lost is voluntary with themselves. DA 749 tells us that compelling power is found only under Satan's government.

Then there's the life of Jesus Christ. We can see, in brilliant fashion, the true character of God simply by seeing how Jesus Christ lived and treated those with whom He came in contact, including those who desired him harm.

The "NOW" refers to the time when God can allow Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin without being misunderstood.

[John317]

ellen white appears to make it quite clear that God has been protecting the lost, as well as the righteous, from satan. are you disagreeing with that?

It's true God stops protecting the wicked from Satan after human probation ends and the seven last plagues begin to be poured out by the seven angels who are told, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth." Rev. 16: 1.

[Robert]

There is a disconnect if you can't see that the punishment should fit the crime.

[Woody]

Bingo?

[John317]

The "NOW" refers to the time when God can allow Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin without being misunderstood.

Sure. And how do they reap the full result of their sin?

Ellen White says it is after the righteous together with Jesus study the lives of the wicked and determine how much punishment their works deserve. Jesus renders to everyone according to his deeds. He personally pronounces the sentence. Not everyone suffers the same. Some die "as in a moment;" other suffer long; and Satan, the last one to perish, suffers many days after all others have been completely burned up.

[Robert]

Bingo?

I mean not bingo...

[Robert]

Ellen White says it is after the righteous together with Jesus study the lives of the wicked and determine how much punishment their works deserve. Jesus renders to everyone according to his deeds. He personally pronounces the sentence. Not everyone suffers the same. Some die "as in a moment;" other suffer long; and Satan, the last one to perish, suffers many days after all others have been completely burned up.

Baloney! This is not within the character of God....He is not in the business of torture. For folks to believe so means they need a doctor....

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Ellen White says it is after the righteous together with Jesus study the lives of the wicked and determine how much punishment their works deserve. Jesus renders to everyone according to his deeds. He personally pronounces the sentence. Not everyone suffers the same. Some die "as in a moment;" other suffer long; and Satan, the last one to perish, suffers many days after all others have been completely burned up.

Baloney!

but robert the problem isnt with what she says but how it is interpreted. our pioneers understood what she meant much differently-except, it seems, andrews-than those of today. andrews "punishing" mentality seems to have won out starting about the 40s.

a search of "fire came down" in the archives gives that impression. it is an awful lot of pages, from 185? til 1940. the short method is to read smiths understanding in daniel and revelation.

[John317]

Bingo?

You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. The Bible plainly teaches that Christ rewards everyone according to their deeds done in the body, and that includes the wicked. Ellen White also clearly says that not all will be punished the same or suffer the same. See GC 673. "Some are destroyed as in a moment, while suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.'"

[Robert]

but robert the problem isnt with what she says but how it is interpreted.

Maybe, but...

Look, she isn't always right. She's fallible...she grew in her understanding and therefore produced unintentional error. It took her twenty something years to realize that God doesn't love those who do wrong, to God loves sinners when they do wrong, but hates sin's destructiveness.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Bingo?

You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White.

So John, am I a liar?