"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[pnattmbtc]

p:The idea seems to be that God decided not to destroy Satan right away, because it wouldn't have been clear that Satan deserved to be destroyed, but in the end, when it's safe, God can destroy him. This idea has a couple of difficulties. One is it supposes that an artificial, imposes, separate destroying action is necessary, as opposed to simply allowing Satan to reap the final result of his sin. It makes sin innocuous of itself, as opposed to a force which inevitably results in death.

B:Not true.

Your problem is in trying to be God "enough" to know the heart and soul of what it means to create a Universe of Free Will Intelligent beings.

[pnattmbtc]

There's lots I can't understand. For instance, when the Assyrians are arrayed against God's chosen people, a single angel wipes them out. Now, you know the Assyrians were inspired by evil angels to go against Israel. Where are those evil angels when this single angel of God wreaks havoc amongst their human minions? Or maybe they are just in it for the body count, so when there's killing going on, they are all for it no matter who gets the axe. Prophets and Kings (1917), page 571

I didn't understand this, especially the underlined part. Would you explain your meaning here please?

[pnattmbtc]

And so Ellen White explains why it is that God did not use the "all powerful God" bits to zap out the rebellion. INSTEAD of that open warfare was "allowed".

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In 2Peter 3 - the text "merges" the 2nd coming and the Lake of Fire - as these are all God's end time executive judgment.

In the same way in Rev 12 - John merges both the physical War in heaven (before the creation of earth) and the additional defeat of Satan at the cross.

Good points. The Scriptures, particularly the OT, do this often, as in Isaiah where the first and second coming are sometimes merged.

[teresaq]

Satan tried to repent, but it was too late.

Satan trembled as he viewed his work. He was alone in meditation upon the past, the present, and his future plans. His mighty frame shook as with a tempest. An angel from Heaven was passing. He called him, and entreated an interview with Christ. This was granted him. He then related to the Son of God that he repented of his rebellion, and wished again the favor of God. He was willing to take the place God had previously assigned him, and be under his wise command. Christ wept at Satan's woe, but told him, as the mind of God, that he could never be received into Heaven. Heaven must not be placed in jeopardy. ......

The wretchedness he realized in losing the sweet light of Heaven, and the sense of guilt which forced itself upon him, and the disappointment he experienced himself in not finding his expectations realized, were the cause of his grief. To be commander out of Heaven, was vastly different from being thus honored in Heaven. The loss he had sustained of all the privileges of Heaven seemed too much to be borne. He wished to regain these. {1SP 30,31}

He repented not of his rebellion because he saw the goodness of God which he had abused. It was not possible that his love for God had so increased since his fall that it would lead to cheerful submission and happy obedience to his law which had been despised. The wretchedness he realized in losing the sweet light of Heaven, and the sense of guilt which forced itself upon him, and the disappointment he experienced himself in not finding his expectations realized, were the cause of his grief. To be commander out of Heaven, was vastly different from being thus honored in Heaven. The loss he had sustained of all the privileges of Heaven seemed too much to be borne. He wished to regain these. {1SP 30.1}

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Good points. ...

How does this make any sense in a physical war?

im trying to picture a war where "air" is fighting "air", or perhaps these "spirits" look like clouds...

do they have air swords? or are they cloud swords? or are there just swords flying around?

[pnattmbtc]

EGW:While it was in harmony with worldly government, it was not, however, according to the principle of the heavenly government. Hence it is, that again, in the person of the Babylonian king, Satan is challenging the government of God. When Lucifer and his angels refused to bow before the throne of God, the Father would not then destroy them. They should live until death should come as a result of the course they pursued. The Babylonian king, however, threatened utter destruction to all who refused to worship his golden image. The motive power in the heavenly government is love; human power when exercised becomes tyranny. All tyranny is a repetition of the Babylonian principles. We sometimes call it papal; it is likewise Babylonian. When the civil power enforces worship of any sort, be that worship true or false in itself, to obey is idolatry. The command must be backed by some form of punishment,-a fiery furnace,-and the conscience of man is no longer free. From a civil standpoint, such legislation is tyranny, and looked at from a religious point of view, it is persecution. {1901 SNH, SDP 41.1}

[teresaq]

Quote:

Why is this important? In addition to what it says about God, there is also the issue that if this were not the case, then, from what's written above, we would conclude that the conscience is not free. If we believe God will set us on fire for hours or days if we do not do what He says, then our conscience is not free.

our sin-deadened minds find this so hard to comprehend-as it does that God is different from us.

truly if we do not learn how to see and stay focused on the cross we will never be able to understand the difference between God and ourselves.

we will always see Him as a "super" us. whatever we are, but bigger and more powerful.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

we will always see Him as a "super" us. whatever we are, but bigger and more powerful.

Very well put! A "super" us.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

While it was in harmony with worldly government, it was not, however, according to the principle of the heavenly government. Hence it is, that again, in the person of the Babylonian king, Satan is challenging the government of God. When Lucifer and his angels refused to bow before the throne of God, the Father would not then destroy them. They should live until death should come as a result of the course they pursued. The Babylonian king, however, threatened utter destruction to all who refused to worship his golden image. The motive power in the heavenly government is love; human power when exercised becomes tyranny. All tyranny is a repetition of the Babylonian principles. We sometimes call it papal; it is likewise Babylonian. When the civil power enforces worship of any sort, be that worship true or false in itself, to obey is idolatry. The command must be backed by some form of punishment,-a fiery furnace,-and the conscience of man is no longer free. From a civil standpoint, such legislation is tyranny, and looked at from a religious point of view, it is persecution. {1901 SNH, SDP 41.1}

This quote is actually from S. N. Haskell, not Ellen White. It's very similar to what she's written, however. For example:

Quote:

Force is the last resort of every false religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon tried the power of music and outward show. If these attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace were ready to consume them. So it will be now. The papacy has exercised her power to compel men to obey her, and she will continue to do so.(ST May 6, 1897).

[teresaq]

yes, we forget that the pioneers spent hours studying and praying together. when i read in the archives you can see the individuality of each, yet they all pretty much said and believed the same thing.

in fact many times, from what i understand, ellen white just copied what the other pioneers had said since it was so well put. no since trying to come up with different words to say the same thing.

[BobRyan]

I wonder which pioneer may have sounded like this --

"strength against strength"

{SR 18.2}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before.

White, E. G. (1947; 2002). The Story of Redemption (18). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Many of Lucifer's sympathizers were inclined to heed the counsel of the loyal angels and repent of their dissatisfaction and be again received to the confidence of the Father and His dear Son. The mighty revolter then declared that he was acquainted with God's law, and if he should submit to servile obedience, his honor would be taken from him. No more would he be intrusted with his exalted mission. He told them that himself and they also had now gone too far to go back, and he would brave the consequences, for to bow in servile worship to the Son of God he never would; that God would not forgive, and now they must assert their liberty and gain by force the position and authority which was not willingly accorded to them. --PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, P. 40.] {SR 16.2}

The loyal angels hastened speedily to the Son of God and acquainted Him with what was taking place among the angels. They found the Father in conference with His beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this archdeceiver from heaven; but this was not His purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with His own Son and His loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side and be manifested to all. It would not have been safe to suffer any who united with Satan in his rebellion to continue to occupy heaven. They had learned the lesson of genuine rebellion against the unchangeable law of God, and this is incurable. If God had exercised His power to punish this chief rebel, disaffected angels would not have been manifested; hence, God took another course, for He would manifest distinctly to all the heavenly host His justice and His judgment. {SR 17.1}

All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father, to have each case determined. Satan unblushingly made known his dissatisfaction that Christ should be preferred before him. He stood up proudly and urged that he should be equal with God, and should be taken into conference with the Father and understand His purposes. God informed Satan that to His Son alone He would reveal His secret purposes, and He required all the family in heaven, even Satan, to yield Him implicit, unquestioned obedience; but that he had proved himself unworthy a place in heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in heaven? He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to [color:#CC0000]defend his place in heaven by force and might, strength against strength.--1SP 22. {TA 43.1}

To the very close of the controversy in heaven, the great usurper continued to justify himself. When it was announced that with all his sympathizers he must be expelled from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law. He reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. {TA 43.2}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven.{SR 19.1}

=============

Some recent arguments here make it appear that something in DA 759 or 761 provides an excuse to edit or re-interpret the SR 16-19 and 1SP 22 statements above.

However there is nothing of the kind in DA - because as it turns out - both fit well together -- without any changes and without having to ignore the inconvenient details in SR 16-19.

[Guest]

Very good documentation Bob. As it turns out, it looks like there really was war in heaven. I don't see how anyone could deny it after reading those plain straightforward statements. There would need to be a mental or spiritual disconnect there somewhere.

[pnattmbtc]

I think it was the same one who sounds like this:

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

Quote:

God destroys no one. Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

Quote:

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The Great Controversy, 36.

Quote:

Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest. Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

Quote:

This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

Quote:

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work. The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.

Quote:

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:55, 56. There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. The Desire of Ages, 487.

Quote:

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." ibid., 759.

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government... ibid., 22.

Quote:

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.

[pnattmbtc]

As it turns out, it looks like there really was war in heaven. I don't see how anyone could deny it after reading those plain straightforward statements. There would need to be a mental or spiritual disconnect there somewhere.

[teresaq]

based on the behavior of many of us it looks quite certain we are going to be on the wrong side of the city.

whether we get varying burn times or blow each other up or whatever happens wont really matter cause we will be eternally, irrevocably lost.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

this is such an unhappy thread... and I've asked questions, only to be ignored...which will probably happen to this post as well.

[Guest]

Yes, there was a war in heaven, but, as it turns out, it was one which involves something more subtle than force.

Not according to Ellen White and the Bible. You definately have a disconnect there, to be able to ignore all those quotes that prove you wrong. Or to say that you have some quotes the trump her other quotes, and trumps what the Bible says. That is the wrong usage of EGW. Satan wishes he could get more people to use that method of study. But personally I'm surprised he has been as successful as he has with it.

[Guest]

this is such an unhappy thread... and I've asked questions, only to be ignored...which will probably happen to this post as well.

You're right about the unhappy part.

[pnattmbtc]

this is such an unhappy thread... and I've asked questions, only to be ignored...which will probably happen to this post as well.

What's a question you have?

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, there was a war in heaven, but, as it turns out, it was one which involves something more subtle than force.

R:Not according to Ellen White and the Bible.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

this is such an unhappy thread... and I've asked questions, only to be ignored...which will probably happen to this post as well.

What's a question you have?

I asked this a number of times. Where can it be found that Satan visited other inhabited planets but was restricted to the Tree of Knowledge on each planet? I can't find ANYTHING like that anywhere. And it was given as a fact on this thread.

[pnattmbtc]

Do you mean from Ellen White's writings?

[Guest]

I asked this a number of times. Where can it be found that Satan visited other inhabited planets but was restricted to the Tree of Knowledge on each planet? I can't find ANYTHING like that anywhere. And it was given as a fact on this thread.

Send Bob Ryan a PM and ask him. He's the one who said it. I've seen something similar to that but I don't know where.

[Guest]

Why is this a disconnect for me and not for you?

Because I can reconcile the quotes you use, but all you can do is ignore and talk around the ones we use, and pretend they don't exist.