"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

all he tells me is that it is from "inspirational writings" .... big whoopee ..... so I don't know if it's something someone has just thought up and sounded good or what...

I couldn't find it in any of EGW stuff.. and I KNOW it isn't in the Bible. So, where are you people getting your information from?????

[Guest]

So you asked Bob, and that's what he said?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

yes

[Guest]

I'll see if I can get it out of him.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I asked this a number of times. Where can it be found that Satan visited other inhabited planets but was restricted to the Tree of Knowledge on each planet? I can't find ANYTHING like that anywhere. And it was given as a fact on this thread.

Send Bob Ryan a PM and ask him. He's the one who said it. I've seen something similar to that but I don't know where.

i believe that is more of a deduction than any explicit statement anywhere, pam.

if satan was not allowed to harass adam and eve all over the garden but only had access to them should they go to the tree of knowledge, then we assume God would also protect the inhabitants of other worlds in the same way, also.

[teresaq]

this is such an unhappy thread... and I've asked questions, only to be ignored...which will probably happen to this post as well.

im sorry if i depressed you, pam.

the ugliness by some depressed me and i just realized that if it persisted we would wake up on the wrong side of the city.

then we will wonder why we thought it so "needful" to behave the way we do.

which reminds me, on another thread you answered something i said and i meant to get back to it the next day but forgot. do you remember which thread that was? i think it was something about "babel". my apologies for flaking.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't remember. It just seems that the theology section of the forum is so ugly these days.

[Woody]

Quote:

these days

huh ???

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

uglier than ever these days, I should have said, or maybe I shouldn't

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I asked this a number of times. Where can it be found that Satan visited other inhabited planets but was restricted to the Tree of Knowledge on each planet? I can't find ANYTHING like that anywhere. And it was given as a fact on this thread.

Originally Posted By: teresaq

i believe that is more of a deduction than any explicit statement anywhere, pam.

if satan was not allowed to harass adam and eve all over the garden but only had access to them should they go to the tree of knowledge, then we assume God would also protect the inhabitants of other worlds in the same way, also.

I don't think I buy it if it's only an assumption. oh well. It's not a salvational issue anyway.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnat

Why is this a disconnect for me and not for you?

Because I can reconcile the quotes you use, but all you can do is ignore and talk around the ones we use, and pretend they don't exist.

[pnattmbtc]

There's this:

Quote:

The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, "We have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth." Then I saw two trees, one looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, "None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall."(Early Writings 39-40)

This brings out that there were two trees. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil wouldn't be much of a temptation just of itself.

I recall reading somewhere that Satan could tempt, but only at this tree, just like here. I don't remember where though.

[Guest]

I don't recall your writing anything about this. Could you direct me to the post where you discussed this?

Someone else pointed out quite well that the only thing she could have been talking about there, (if you want to reconcile everything) is the fact that He doesn't use compelling power to win the great controversy, or to win anyones allegiance. It doesn't mean he didn't use force to get Satan out of heaven, He obviously did according to Ellen White and the Bible.

The war of allegiance, and the great controversy, was not won by casting Satan out of heaven.

[teresaq]

Someone else pointed out quite well that the only thing she could have been talking about there, (if you want to reconcile everything) is the fact that He doesn't use compelling power to win the great controversy, or to win anyones allegiance. It doesn't mean he didn't use force to get Satan out of heaven, He obviously did according to Ellen White and the Bible.

The war of allegiance, and the great controversy, was not won by casting Satan out of heaven.

it appears that everyone is pretty well convinced of their position and arent really interested in changing it.

[Woody]

Quote:

it appears that everyone is pretty well convinced of their position and arent really interested in changing it.

Now has that come as a surprise to you? Or was that something you expected to see?

[teresaq]

neither, i think. just putting it on "paper". :)

[teresaq]

Quote:

these days

huh ???

yeah my introduction when starting to post here was immediate misrepresentation of what i said, slandered. a few good christian sda folks that defend the law, talk about love, break the law and practice hate.

but that is the norm for these discussion groups for some reason.

[John317]

Suppose Satan had been unsuccessful here, but was successful elsewhere. Would God still have forced him to come here? Does that make any sense?

No. I don't believe God would have forced Satan to stay here if Adam and Eve had passed the test. It's possible, however, that after the world was populated with their progeny, God would have allowed Satan to test the earth's population again. We simply don't know, but we do know that God allowed Satan to test the other worlds.

But what would have happened if Satan had been unsuccessful anywhere, including on earth-- what then? Would God have destroyed him and the fallen angels at that point or would He have simply withdrawn His life-giving power and "allowed" them to die a quick and painless death?

Why did Jesus talk about the fires of hell that God prepared for the Devil and his angels? It seems to me that Jesus' words show that God intended to "punish" the fallen angels in some way, not merely allow them to pass out of existence without any kind of punishment. Fire also seems to be an obvious image of severe punishment and pain.

But getting back to the question of why Satan came to our earth:

The Bible makes the point about 6 times that Satan and his demons were "thrown down to the earth." I can't believe that this is merely coincidental. Their being "thrown down" was clearly something that someone did to them, not something they chose of themselves to do.

I think we have to deal straight-forwardly with the actual language of Scripture. Our human reason should never find itself contradicting plain Bible statements.

Isn't it possible to explain what happened without concluding God didn't make the decision resulting in the wicked angels coming to the earth?

The rebellion in heaven occurred during the time that God and Christ together were planning the creation of the earth and the human family. Satan was jealous because he could not be a part of the planning. Therefore we know that the earth was made a relatively short time after the angels were driven out of heaven. I believe it makes biblical sense that it was God's will for Satan and the evil angels to come to this earth at the time of the creation for the purpose of testing the new race. It's very likely that at this time, Satan and his followers were trying to gain followers among the inhabits of other worlds. If this is true, it would be correct to say that God "threw them to the earth" at the time of His choosing. Tnen, only after Satan came here did the arch-deceiver determine how he could destroy them-- leading them to disobey God-- and make this earth the center of his kingdom.

We're not told what God would have done with Satan and his demons if Adam and Eve had passed the test, but I think it's reasonable to conclude that God would not have allowed them to continue on the earth. But that's a non-issue as far as special revelation is concerned.

[John317]

im trying to picture a war where "air" is fighting "air", or perhaps these "spirits" look like clouds...

do they have air swords? or are they cloud swords? or are there just swords flying around?

In a previous post, you wrote, "I don't know anyone who believes this. Are you sure this isn't an idea you have? Perhaps you quote something. At any rate, this doesn't correspond to anything I wrote or any belief I have."

These are exactly my own thoughts about what you are "trying to picture."

[John317]

I think it was the same one who sounds like this:

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

Quote:

God destroys no one. Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

Quote:

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The Great Controversy, 36.

All these quotes are saying that God wants people to be saved and that He does everything He can to save them, not destroy them. God isn't out to destroy anyone, but Satan is. That's the context of all those quotes. They're not denying that fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the wicked.

Take the example of Sodom. Did God want them destroyed? Was God standing toward those people as their executioner of the sentence against transgression? No. God stands toward people as their Creator and Savior. But that doesn't mean God did not destroy Sodom. Those people destroyed themselves through their own choices. Yet they obviously didn't set themselves on fire. Ellen White says balls of fire were sent from heaven. This fire destroyed the city and the people, but the people brought the fire down on themselves. The Bible says that fire which destroyed Sodom is an example of the fire that will destroy the wicked at the end of this world. When we accept that it happened exactly as the Bible says it did--- and not that it was destroyed by a volcano-- everything about the final destruction of the wicked becomes clear.

[John317]

...there are two sets of quotes. You can't just pretend that one set of quotes doesn't exist. I'm not saying the quotes I presented "trump" the other quotes, but that the other quotes should be interpreted in the light of the principles she presented. Why wouldn't this be the case?

We need to accept and take into account ALL the quotes dealing with this topic.

There are none that I am ignoring or not taking fully into account here.

The problem with saying that God never uses "force" or "compels" anyone to do anything, or takes human life, is that it makes the Bible and the SOP clearly contradict themselves. Since that's the case, it is self-evident that what you are accepting as a "univeral principle" is not universal at all. But you won't know this unless you are willing to let the Bible and the SOP interpret themselves. Let ALL the Bible speak and let ALL the SOP speak to these issues. Don't take only a few paragraphs and interpret everything through the lense of those few paragraphs.

Take the example of the war in heaven.

In EW 146, it shows that the rebellion continued for some time before it was "determined that Satan should be expelled from heaven, with all the angels who had joined him in the rebellion. THEN THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN."

The "war" occurred after Satan was told He would have to leave-- be "expelled." It is crystal clear that Satan could not possibly stay in heaven from that point on. This was BEFORE the war started. Up to that point it was a debate or discussion about ideas, etc. AFTER THAT was when there was war.

So after God decreed that the evil angels must be expelled, "Angels were engaged in the battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God and those who were submissive to His will. But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, were DRIVEN FROM HEAVEN." The very next sentence goes on to say that Satan was "shut out of heaven."

Does anyone really believe that Satan planned to "conquer the Son of God" by means conversation and debate? Remember that Ellen White says Satan was determined to use "force, strength against strength, might against might."

After he was "banished from heaven" and had been "expelled," Satan "repented" and requested to be allowed back in heaven. He didn't think God meant what He said. But then he was told that he couldn't be permitted back in heaven ever again.

Ellen White continues, "But no; heaven must not be placed in jeopardy. All heaven might be marred should he be taken back.... Both he and his followers wept, and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But their sin-- their hatred, their envy and jealousy-- had been so great that God could not blot it out. It must remain to receive its final punishment."

NOTE: The above proves that God was not trying to get Satan to stay in heaven at the time of the war or afterwards. The war occurred because Satan was determined to stay in heaven and to "conquer the Son of God." But thank God he and all the fallen angels were "driven from heaven," "shut out," "expelled," "thrown out," "banished," "cast down," "cast out from the courts of heaven," and "the gates of heaven were barred against them." (See CG 178)

By definiton, these words show that God used force and compelled Satan to leave heaven.

The same is true of what we know about Adam's being "driven from the Garden," where he could not possibly remain.

It is also true of the freeing of Israel from Egyptian bondage and the death of the Egyptians in the Red Sea.

I still have not seen a satisfactory or clear response to these points. If you've given one, please point me to the post in which you offer it.

[karl]

Where can it be found that Satan visited other inhabited planets but was restricted to the Tree of Knowledge on each planet? I can't find ANYTHING like that anywhere. And it was given as a fact on this thread.

I haven't found the Tree restriction, but he definitely was allowed to tempt them. I don't know why God would give us an advantage He didn't give other worlds.

"Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds, to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound; there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight." The Great Controversy (1888), page 659

"Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience; but he is never brought into such a position that yielding to evil becomes a matter of necessity." The Faith I Live By (1958), page 82

[karl]

All these quotes are saying that God wants people to be saved and that He does everything He can to save them, not destroy them. God isn't out to destroy anyone, but Satan is. That's the context of all those quotes. They're not denying that fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the wicked.

Take the example of Sodom. Did God want them destroyed? Was God standing toward those people as their executioner of the sentence against transgression? No. God stands toward people as their Creator and Savior. But that doesn't mean God did not destroy Sodom. Those people destroyed themselves through their own choices. Yet they obviously didn't set themselves on fire. Ellen White says balls of fire were sent from heaven. This fire destroyed the city and the people, but the people brought the fire down on themselves. The Bible says that fire which destroyed Sodom is an example of the fire that will destroy the wicked at the end of this world. When we accept that it happened exactly as the Bible says it did--- and not that it was destroyed by a volcano-- everything about the final destruction of the wicked becomes clear.

You're making sense to me with this argument, J317.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: pnat

I don't recall your writing anything about this. Could you direct me to the post where you discussed this?

Someone else pointed out quite well that the only thing she could have been talking about there, (if you want to reconcile everything) is the fact that He doesn't use compelling power to win the great controversy, or to win anyones allegiance. It doesn't mean he didn't use force to get Satan out of heaven, He obviously did according to Ellen White and the Bible.

The war of allegiance, and the great controversy, was not won by casting Satan out of heaven.

Good point, Richard.

And it is not won by the final destruction of the wicked. They are only destroyed when it is finally and absolutely positive in everyone's mind that they cannot be rehabilitated - that if allowed to live it will be simply prolonging their misery.

[John317]

Here is the reason God did not immediately destroy Satan:

"When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. THIS WAS WHY GOD DID NOT AT ONCE DESTROY SATAN. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God.... THEREFORE the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character." COL 72

Notice the words, "did not AT ONCE destroy Satan." (Ellen White says this in several places in her writings.)

It obviously means that God would indeed finally destroy Satan, but only after the reason for not destroying him earlier no longer existed. When would that be? When Satan's true character was exposed and when the holy angels could see the justice and love of God in the destruction of sin and Satan. Does anyone doubt that this will be precisely the situation at the end of the 1000 years?

I think it's important to notice that in this context, there is no mention that the reason God did not destroy Satan was that God opposes all use of force under any and ever circumstance. His reason for not destroying Satan immediately was that destroying Satan earlier would not have solved the sin-problem but would have made it worse. So the universe must witness the proof of how horrible sin is. That requires time and a great deal of suffering and death.

She also says, "God saw that if Satan were not EXPELLED from heaven the angelic host would be in constant danger; and when God-fearing teachers see that to retain a student is to expose others to evil influences, they should separate him from the school." CT 268.

NOTE: She associates the expelling of Satan from heaven with the expelling of students from school. After a student is expelled, they are not given a choice whether to remain, and neither was Satan. What happens if the student refuses to be separate from the school? Does the school allow him to stay? Clearly not. If necessary, force will be used to make a student leave the school. And the evidence is that when Satan resisted God's decree to leave heaven and made war against Christ and the good angels, it became necessary to force him out. He was thrown out and "could not enter heaven" and the gates were barred against him.

I do not see how these things can be understood in any way except that Satan was forced out and forced to stay out. It certainly was never his plan to leave, and the record shows that if he had his way, he would go back inside the gates of heaven. The attitude of the good angels is not what's keeping him out. What's keeping him out is that "God decreed" that there was "no more place for him in heaven" and that "he must be banished."

God rules.