"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

"Compelling power is only found under Satan's government." is clearly a broad, strong statement.

While what you say is true, this statement does NOT say that compelling power is equivalent to the destruction of the wicked. You are inserting that thought yourself.

Compelling is when you force someone to choose what you want them to choose. God will not do that. The wicked, by their own choices, make that decision. God just ratifies it.

Exactly! Very well put karl.

[Robert]

Compelling is when you force someone to choose what you want them to choose. God will not do that. The wicked, by their own choices, make that decision. God just ratifies it.

Let's say a robber comes up to you....he says, "Look, I want you to give me your money...but I'm not going to point a gun at you...it's your choice." You tell him, "Get lost!" You choose not to give him your money...then the robber douses you with gasoline and sets you on fire, but he didn't make you give him your money. Make sense? No? Neither does your view of God....

[karl]

[

Fire, from the pressure within the earth, shoots up into the sky (heaven) and rains down on unbelievers, but it is not from God. The fire comes from the earth ravaged with sin. God abandon the planet and because He has been holding it together it falls apart when He departs.

I'm good with this. I think something similar happens, but that fire actually does come down from God like the inspired writing tells us. I think it happens when He removes some protective shield He has established (more elaborate than the finger in the dike) and men are exposed to the full face of God which He told Moses could not be endured by mortal man.

At least you don't have the wicked finishing each other off. (I can imagine the last two in such a scenario are Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr and they actually do each other in this time.)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

EGW:God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The Great Controversy, 36.

G:BTW, the context of this statement is about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. She plainly says that it was the RESULT of the Jews' rejection of His mercy and the trampling of God's laws and the subsequent removal of His protection that they suffered. God was not the ACTIVE punisher. But in the same chapter, she has this to say:

But in that day, as in the time of Jerusalem’s destruction, God’s people will be delivered, "every one that shall be found written among the living." Christ has declared that he will come the second time, to gather his faithful ones to himself: "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [MATT. 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 THESS. 2:8.] Like Israel [bEGIN P.38] of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Great Controversy. 1888; 2002 (37). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

In the case of Jerusalem, God removed His protection and Satan did the destroying but the ultimate responsibility still lay with those who rejected His mercy. In the endtime eradication of evil, the active agent that destroys them is His own glory which is as a consuming fire to the wicked; destroyed because of their own iniquity.

This is missing her point. Here are the two paragraphs right before what you posted:

Quote:

The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),-- what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule.(emphasis mine)

Note the underlined sentence (the last one). Her point is that the destruction of Jerusalem was a type of the final destruction, which will also exhibit the same principles as the destruction of Jerusalem! Note that, like the destruction of Jerusalem:

Quote:

when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule.

events

This is the same principle as the destruction of Jerusalem!

Ok, I think I see your point. I agree that the destructive forces that were unleashed during the destruction of Jerusalem and the forces that will be unleashed during the Time of Trouble/Tribulation are the same, i.e. Satanic forces acting after God's protection is removed. However, I think we are talking about TWO different end-time events, which IMHO, you are missing the point. The end-time event that I am referring to is the destruction of the wicked AFTER the millennium when IT IS GOD'S CONSUMING FIRE OF GLORY that destroys the wicked which she refers to in the latter part of that chapter. So the common denominator between the destruction of Jerusalem and the Time of Trouble are: 1) God removes His protection 2) Satan and his hosts wreak havoc 3) underlying cause is people's rebellion. The common denominator between the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the wicked at the end of the millennium is: wickedness. The difference? In the former, Satan does the destroying, in the latter, it is God's fiery glory that does the consuming and refining. Or are you going to say that the earth will refine itself?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Compelling is when you force someone to choose what you want them to choose. God will not do that. The wicked, by their own choices, make that decision. God just ratifies it.

Let's say a robber comes up to you....he says, "Look, I want you to give me your money...but I'm not going to point a gun at you...it's your choice." You tell him, "Get lost!" You choose not to give him your money...then the robber douses you with gasoline and sets you on fire, but he didn't make you give him your money. Make sense? No? Neither does your nutty view of God....

Excuse me?

Did I ask you for a rant on my nuttiness?

I'll admit that I'm nuts about God, but not in the way you imply.

Let's imagine a more apropos scenario. Let's say that I have jumped off a cliff to kill myself and God says to me, "I am going to freeze this moment and your fall, because I want to save your life. I will take your place and take your fall. You have a limited amount of time to accept my offer. If you do not, I will kill you."

Now, you could say that God would not be responsible for my destruction under these conditions. You would be wrong. My life is sustained by God, minute by minute. The fact that God has the power to continue to sustain my life, but at some point chooses not to, has the same result as Him shooting me in the head. Even if He is paying me what I have earned, what I have chosen, it is still His act, as the life-Giver, to stop giving me life.

[karl]

Quote:

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 THESS. 2:8.] Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

I think this quote highlights the trouble. Thanks for picking this one out and posting it, Gerry.

The wicked do themselves in. They are consumed by God's glory.

We can argue this 'til the cows come home, but the bottom line is that God is in charge of life. Some would like to have Him absolved of death, but the absence of life IS death. So whoever is in charge of life is defacto in charge of death.

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow.

[Guest]

Who can argue with that?!

[Robert]

Now, you could say that God would not be responsible for my destruction under these conditions. You would be wrong.

In heaven Lucifer began to re-think God's agape love. Lucifer found agape too restrictive. Instead of living selflessly for others he took God's agape love and bent it back to himself. We call this self-love - a u turn agape.

Now self-love sounds very convincing. Even Psychiatrists say, "You can't find happiness unless you love yourself." So 1/3 of the angels found Lucifer's argument very convincing.

God knew that the fruit of self-love would produce "hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy". You see if you are trying to climb the ladder there are other folks doing the same. So you compete...you try to get the best grades so you'll get the job instead of them....This is Lucifer's invention....Ultimately it collapses into anarchy. That's because the ultimate fruit of self-love is murder. That's why Paul states, "If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."

But since Lucifer had no proof that his love of self was better than God's agape love, God allowed Him to develop it if and when he found a world that was receptive to his views. He found that in Adam and Eve.

For 6000 years we have seen Lucifer's principle at work. Because God has allowed Lucifer to develop his type of love God assumes the blame for all the fallout produced from such love, that is, until the day of atonement when God places the blame where it belongs; On Satan....Until then God makes statements like "I create evil"..."I killed Saul"..."etc...

[Robert]

Who can argue with that?!

Me! It's not Bible....It's outside the Bible....Even EGW states that you are not to use her writings for deciding doctrinal issues. Those who do have joined themselves to a cult.....

[Guest]

Excuse me?

Did I ask you for a rant on my nuttiness?

I'll admit that I'm nuts about God, but not in the way you imply.

Let's imagine a more apropos scenario. Let's say that I have jumped off a cliff to kill myself and God says to me, "I am going to freeze this moment and your fall, because I want to save your life. I will take your place and take your fall. You have a limited amount of time to accept my offer. If you do not, I will kill you."

Now, you could say that God would not be responsible for my destruction under these conditions. You would be wrong. My life is sustained by God, minute by minute. The fact that God has the power to continue to sustain my life, but at some point chooses not to, has the same result as Him shooting me in the head. Even if He is paying me what I have earned, what I have chosen, it is still His act, as the life-Giver, to stop giving me life.

karl, you might as well go out in the yard and find a big rock, or a piece of farm equipment, and talk to it. Your time, nay, our time is valuable. God is going to hold us accountable for it. HE does not want us to waste it arguing with heretics who have already made up their minds in error, and will not change it no matter what you say. Our time would be better spent studying the Bible. (or making ice cubes for that matter)

Tit 3:9,10 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[Guest]

Me! It's not Bible....It's outside the Bible....Even EGW states that you are not to use her writings for deciding doctrinal issues. Those who do have joined themselves to a cult.....

[Robert]

Tit 3:9,10 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

[Robert]

Who said anything about Ellen White? I didn't neither did karl. I was talking about the common sense argument karl made.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.

Fire, from the pressure within the earth, shoots up into the sky (heaven) and rains down on unbelievers, but it is not from God. The fire comes from the earth ravaged with sin. God abandon the planet and because He has been holding it together it falls apart when He departs.

Nice imagination but no bingo. Would Satan & his spirit hosts be destoyed by such natural fire? I don't think so. But here is the fire that will destoy both body and spirit: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." 2 Pet 3:10 NIV

"but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were," Rev 20:9-10 ESV

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." Mal 4:1 ESV

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29 ESV

[Robert]

Nice imagination but no bingo. Would Satan & his spirit hosts be destoyed by such natural fire? I don't think so.

Dude...it says "fire"...."the lake of fire and sulfur"

[Robert]

2 Pet 3:10 NIV Rev 20:9-10 ESV Mal 4:1 ESV Heb 12:29 ESV

Stringing verses together to make up your particular view?....I can do this:

"Judas hung himself" "Go do thou likewise" teehe

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 THESS. 2:8.] Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

This quote is similar to two I've been bringing up frequently. Here's one:

Quote:

At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (DA 107-108)

Notice the same thing which gives life to the righteous is what destroys the wicked. It's the "light of the glory of God," which is the revelation of His character (note the following sentence, speaking of Christ, the revealer of God's character, and how others reacted to this).

Here's the other:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

This points out that it's not an arbitrary act on the part of God, such as setting them on fire, that causes the death of the wicked, but they die as a consequence of their own choice. Of note to this particular discussion is this part:

Quote:

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

This is similar to the GC quote. It is the love of God which causes the death of the wicked. This love is like a fire. I'll try to post the thing by Ty Gibson which speaks to this.

[pnattmbtc]

In heaven Lucifer began to re-think God's agape love. Lucifer found agape too restrictive. Instead of living selflessly for others he took God's agape love and bent it back to himself. We call this self-love - a u turn agape.

Now self-love sounds very convincing. Even Psychiatrists say, "You can't find happiness unless you love yourself." So 1/3 of the angels found Lucifer's argument very convincing.

God knew that the fruit of self-love would produce "hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy". You see if you are trying to climb the ladder there are other folks doing the same. So you compete...you try to get the best grades so you'll get the job instead of them....This is Lucifer's invention....Ultimately it collapses into anarchy. That's because the ultimate fruit of self-love is murder. That's why Paul states, "If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."

But since Lucifer had no proof that his love of self was better than God's agape love, God allowed Him to develop it if and when he found a world that was receptive to his views. He found that in Adam and Eve.

For 6000 years we have seen Lucifer's principle at work. Because God has allowed Lucifer to develop his type of love God assumes the blame for all the fallout produced from such love, that is, until the day of atonement when God places the blame where it belongs; On Satan....Until then God makes statements like "I create evil"..."I killed Saul"..."etc...

This was a very nice post. Good points, which flow together. No negative comments. Convincing arguments. Very nice.

[BobRyan]

God tells Moses that he cannot see God and survive -- cannot see God and live

How is that fitting with the following statement about a NOT-the-LAKE-of-Fire event?

Quote:

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 THESS. 2:8.] Like Israel [bEGIN P.38] of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Great Controversy. 1888; 2002 (37). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

Also the wicked are viewing Christ seated upon His throne at the GWT event just before the Lake of Fire. Why are they not consumed right then and there??

hmmm.

It is because God is protecting and shielding them.

But as we see in the Rev 20 description - the earth itself is being reformed by the LAKE of Fire.

Now who do you suppose would "not live" in a "LAKE OF FIRE" today?

Try to imagine the people you see in church every day - being "comfortable" in a "LAKE of FIRE".

Not happening for you?

Notice that neither Rev 20 nor GC states that the saints are ever IN the Lake of Fire.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Question for the group - what "event" enables the saints to endure the sight of Christ at the 2nd coming?

in Christ,

Bob

[teresaq]

karl, you might as well go out in the yard and find a big rock, or a piece of farm equipment, and talk to it. Your time, nay, our time is valuable. God is going to hold us accountable for it. HE does not want us to waste it arguing with heretics who have already made up their minds in error, and will not change it no matter what you say. Our time would be better spent studying the Bible. (or making ice cubes for that matter)

Tit 3:9,10 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation

--Are we striving with all our God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ? Are we seeking for His fullness, ever reaching higher and higher, trying to attain to the perfection of His character? When God's servants reach this point, they will be sealed in their foreheads. The recording angel will declare, "It is done." They will be complete in Him whose they are by creation and by redemption.-- Manuscript 148, 1899. {3SM 427.2}

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Question for the group - what "event" enables the saints to endure the sight of Christ at the 2nd coming?

in Christ,

Bob

It's not an "event," but being like Christ in character that prepares one to see Him.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

karl, you might as well go out in the yard and find a big rock, or a piece of farm equipment, and talk to it. Your time, nay, our time is valuable. God is going to hold us accountable for it. HE does not want us to waste it arguing with heretics who have already made up their minds in error, and will not change it no matter what you say. Our time would be better spent studying the Bible. (or making ice cubes for that matter)

Tit 3:9,10 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation

--Are we striving with all our God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ? Are we seeking for His fullness, ever reaching higher and higher, trying to attain to the perfection of His character? When God's servants reach this point, they will be sealed in their foreheads. The recording angel will declare, "It is done." They will be complete in Him whose they are by creation and by redemption.-- Manuscript 148, 1899. {3SM 427.2}

All that is true too. which is all the more reason to seriously cut back my time spent arguing. God doesn't like it. It serves no good purpose. And he has let me know as much.

[teresaq]

Question for the group - what "event" enables the saints to endure the sight of Christ at the 2nd coming?

All are condemned by the law. Then let every one meditate and pray, searching the heart to see if there are not sins still clung to and idolized because he loves them. Sins are retained and practiced which his own conscience tells him are hateful in God's sight. A mere profession of faith is not enough to save any soul. {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 9}

Do not, my brethren, deceive your own souls. As the law opens before us the deformity of our character, Christ our righteousness is lifted up, and presented in contrast with man. As we humble our hearts and draw nigh to Jesus, he draws nigh to us. {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 10}

When you see your case as it stands before God, you will have different ideas in regard to your own defects of character than you now have. When views are presented that do not seem in harmony with your own, it should drive you to study your Bible, and investigate it to see if you yourself hold the right position on the subject. That another holds a different opinion, should not stir up the very worst traits of your nature. You should love your brother, and say, "I am willing to investigate your views. Let us come right to the word of God, and prove by the law and the testimony what is truth." {RH, August 27, 1889 par. 3}

[BobRyan]

Still no takers?