"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

God rules.

That's back to forcing the will....That's back to love me or I'll kill you.

[Robert]

"Those who do not choose to accept the salvation so dearly purchased must be punished."

Accept me or I'll kill you....

[Robert]

In reality, who destroyed Ted Bundy? Himself? Or the judge and jury or the state?

Ted Bundy is not destroyed....he died the first death, if he is raised in the 2nd resurrection he will then die the 2nd death, which is goodbye to life forever. God will abandon the earth at that time and it will come apart....Sin kills, not God....

[Robert]

{EW 290.1}

[Robert]

destroyed because of their own iniquity.

Right, sin kills....The wages of sin is death....If God kills then God is the author of death. If the author of death, then He is the author of sin.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

destroyed because of their own iniquity.

Right, sin kills....The wages of sin is death....If God kills then God is the author of death. If the author of death, then He is the author of sin.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The Lord also says "I kill and I make alive."

I think you've got some circular stuff going here, Robert. If the wages of my job are 50 bucks... The guy who prints the $50 bills at the treasury has nothing to do with my job (unless, of course, the printing of the bills is my job.)

Although, at first blush, your reasoning above may seem logical, it isn't logical to me to assert that if God is the author of death He is the author of sin.

The only way you could logically make that statement would be if death and sin were synonymous.

[Woody]

The Lord also repents of the evil in his mind.

[pnattmbtc]

Although, at first blush, your reasoning above may seem logical, it isn't logical to me to assert that if God is the author of death He is the author of sin.

The only way you could logically make that statement would be if death and sin were synonymous.

[Robert]

The only way you could logically make that statement would be if death and sin were synonymous.

Bingo!

Why are you dying from birth?

Answer:

You are a sinner.

Death and sin go hand in hand. That's why the immortality of the soul is foolishness.

In heaven you'll be immortal. Why?

You'll be sinless....

Go to Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free [in Christ] from the law of sin and death.

Sin produces death. If God kills God creates sin. Sin kills....It brings destruction.

[teresaq]

Secondly, we see Christ presented as the revealer of God's character, and what the impact of that was on His listeners.

Also note that light = revelation, and glory = character (i.e., the glory of God is His character), so the "light of the glory of God" is the "revelation of truth." That this interpretation is correct is clear by noting that in one sentence she speaks of the "light of the glory of God" which gives life to the righteous and slays the wicked, and in the next she speaks of Christ "the revealer of the character of God."

should we start a topic on that?

for me, the revelation of God may be the primary meaning but i believe it has the effect of conviction. we are convicted here and now, but too many times we run away from it. at the second resurrection there will be no escape. all will be captivated, so to speak, and not able to avoid conviction of their/our behavior, their/our thoughts. it will kill.

ellen white says if we were allowed to carry our full guilt it would crush us. it seems that is what happens at the "movie".

(understanding a tad better your view. still think we will probably blow ourselves up, but i have a glimpse of what you mean now, and see it as a possibility. )

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Although, at first blush, your reasoning above may seem logical, it isn't logical to me to assert that if God is the author of death He is the author of sin.

The only way you could logically make that statement would be if death and sin were synonymous.

If there is a one-one correspondence between the two, and one causes the other, this assertion could logically be made. They're "synonymous" in that when you have one, you have the other, but not in the sense that they mean or are the same thing.

The inevitable result of sin is death. Therefore the author of sin is the author of death. That's logically sound (provided there's not some other cause for death other than sin).

As you have pointed out, the logic does not hold if there is a different cause of death.

God has claimed that He causes death (as well as life.) Is it possible that this is true regarding BOTH death and life?

Also, is it within the realm of logic for God to be the cause of death and yet not be its author?

Authorship and causation are not necessarily the same thing. The author of a book is the author of every copy of that particular title. But he probably doesn't manufacture the books or distribute them.

I might tell you my idea for a flying machine and you, being the engineering type, might make it. Who is the author and who is the maker?

There is no question that the wicked choose death ("All them that hate me love death.") The only question here is whether they actually administer the coup de grace to themselves.

[pnattmbtc]

should we start a topic on that?

[pnattmbtc]

As you have pointed out, the logic does not hold if there is a different cause of death.

God has claimed that He causes death (as well as life.) Is it possible that this is true regarding BOTH death and life?

[BobRyan]

I think it was the same one who sounds like this:

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

Quote:

God destroys no one. Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

Quote:

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The Great Controversy, 36.

The above quotes are great examples of Ellen White NOT talking about the Lake of Fire - the 2nd death.

It is also an example of NOT talking about "War in Heaven".

Facinating how those who need to reject what Ellen White DOES say about the Lake of Fire - and War in Heaven -- try to discuss the subject using quotes from Ellen White that are specifically NOT talking about EITHER!

What more of a clue - would we need to see that there is a problem there??

That the GC 36 quote is NOT about the Lake of Fire is evident -- since nothing in Rev 20 or in EGW's text on the Lake of Fire - suggests that people "just live out their lives" at the Lake of Fire event -- either choosing good or evil until finally their life is a wreck.

Secondly - it makes no sense at all to raise the dead -- (the wicked)-- in the second resurrection then have them "simply live out their lives" making whatever choices they will until finally - one day -- they end their life in some kind of unhappy circumstance.

Hello!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Since we were recently asked to consider what God does to the wicked (from GC) to help us know if War in heaven was "real" or not --

let us actually LOOK at the part of GC that even talks about what God does to the wicked in the 2nd death.

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

=====================================

The text above is a lot easier to read than many would like to imagine.

So "yes" -- the War in heaven was every bit as real!

in Christ,

Bob

[karl]

I said if there's no other cause for death besides sin, *then* it would follow that being the author of one would make you the author of the other.

Quote:

Authorship and causation are not necessarily the same thing. ...

There is no question that the wicked choose death ("All them that hate me love death.") The only question here is whether they actually administer the coup de grace to themselves.

There's no question that sin is the author of sin and all its results (from the DA quote I cited). So if death is the result of sin (which it is, since death "is the inevitable result of sin" DA 764), then Satan is its author. That seems to follow very easily.

I think you are mentally adding some conditioning words that are not in the original text. Like "exclusively." "So if death is exclusively the result of sin...."

"The wages of sin exclusively, is death."

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

for me, the revelation of God may be the primary meaning but i believe it has the effect of conviction. we are convicted here and now, but too many times we run away from it. at the second resurrection there will be no escape. all will be captivated, so to speak, and not able to avoid conviction of their/our behavior, their/our thoughts. it will kill.

I agree with this. I think these are inextricably connected. That is, it is the revelation of God that brings the conviction you are speaking of.

Quote:

ellen white says if we were allowed to carry our full guilt it would crush us. it seems that is what happens at the "movie".

Agreed. I think the "movie" has more to do with what's happening inside a person's head than outside of it. That is, the vision Ellen White had had to be presented in a way that she could see things happening to everybody all at once. The Bible says that each one will appear at the judgment seat of Christ. I think this will be an individual experience. Each person will not be conscious of anyone else.

God goes through the circumstances of each one's lives, answering the questions they have, demonstrating to them that He has always loved them and acted in their best interest. There is "fire" involved in this. I hope to explain this further by quoting from Ty Gibson's book "Shades of Grace" a bit later today. (I keep saying this. Maybe it will happen if I keep saying it. To bad it's not online, so I could just copy/paste it.)

Quote:

(understanding a tad better your view. still think we will probably blow ourselves up, but i have a glimpse of what you mean now, and see it as a possibility. )

I'm familiar with the we'll blow each other up view, and haven't rejected it, although I think it may not be necessary. However, I think if that does happen, it will be *after* the suffering for many hours or many days that EGW talks about. I don't see how this blowing up even could possibly cause suffering in an equitable way.

this tends to go along with uriah smiths view, and i just realized that the one who has lived close to 1000 years has much more to "suffer" than a "hitler" say. in addition the antediluvians would have a far deeper comprehension than those of, say, today.

kind of like the developmentally delayed person who murders vs the person of a high iq who murders. the dd has a dull comprehension of what he is doing, while the high iq has a keen vivid understanding....

i think the problem, tho, is that the "suffering" comes in the middle of the "burning", which appears to come after the conviction part.

[teresaq]

I think you are mentally adding some conditioning words that are not in the original text. Like "exclusively." "So if death is exclusively the result of sin...."

"The wages of sin exclusively, is death."

the verse says the wages of sin is death, but it doesnt say, "inflicted by God". so it seems the argument could go the other way also, meaning that we have read into that verse, "inflicted by God" when its not there.

[BobRyan]

Duplicate

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

I think you are mentally adding some conditioning words that are not in the original text. Like "exclusively." "So if death is exclusively the result of sin...."

"The wages of sin exclusively, is death."

the verse says the wages of sin is death, but it doesnt say, "inflicted by God". so it seems the argument could go the other way also, meaning that we have read into that verse, "inflicted by God" when its not there.

Agreed that it is not appropriate to add anything. But when God clearly says that He executes judgment, it is inadequate to contradict what He says with "the wages of sin is death." While the statement is true, it does not contradict Deuteronomy 32:39. "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill , and I make alive ; I wound , and I heal : neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

The Lord will not be trifled with. Those who neglect His mercies and blessings in this day of opportunities will bring impenetrable darkness upon themselves and will be candidates for the wrath of God. Sodom and Gomorrah were visited with the curse of the Almighty for their sins and iniquities. There are those in our day who have equally abused the mercies of God and slighted His warnings. It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for those who bear the name of Christ, yet dishonor Him by their unconsecrated lives. This class are laying up for themselves a fearful retribution when God in His wrath shall visit them with His judgments.

[teresaq]

Since we were recently asked to consider what God does to the wicked (from GC) to help us know if War in heaven was "real" or not --

let us actually LOOK at the part of GC that even talks about what God does to the wicked in the 2nd death.

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

The text above is a lot easier to read than many would like to imagine.

i can see that makes perfect sense to you. and since it is already established some are positive that it couldnt be any other way ... :)

[Robert]

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.

Fire, from the pressure within the earth, shoots up into the sky (heaven) and rains down on unbelievers, but it is not from God. The fire comes from the earth ravaged with sin. God abandon the planet and because He has been holding it together it falls apart when He departs.

It's like the little boy with his finger in a hole of a dike. If enough folks tell him to leave he will because he doesn't force himself on anyone. And then the dike breaks and drowns the whole town. Who done it?

Deut 13:17 ...I will forsake them and hide my face from them, [the result?] and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

[teresaq]

I think you are mentally adding some conditioning words that are not in the original text. Like "exclusively." "So if death is exclusively the result of sin...."

"The wages of sin exclusively, is death."

[karl]

She points out that "rebellion was not to be overcome by force" and that "compelling power is only found under Satan's government."

[Robert]

Deuteronomy 32:39. "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill , and I make alive ; I wound , and I heal : neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."