"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

But wasn't it God's will for them to be tested?

God knew Adam and Eve would fall. Therefore any test would be flawed....

What God did was to allow Lucifer to find someone receptive to his way of thinking. He first found this in Eve. How? Iniquity - that bent to self I've been writing about.

Gen 3:4 The serpent told the Woman, "You won't die. 5 God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you'll see what's really going on. You'll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil." 6 When the Woman saw that the tree looked like good eating and realized what she would get out of it - she'd know everything! - she took and ate the fruit and then gave some to her husband, and he ate.

Now what we don't understand is how Eve, filled with agape, could be tempted by iniquity. She had no bent-to-self in her members, yet the temptation was, "You'll be just like God".

This is the same sin that Lucifer invented: "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God."

So Eve's temptation was to climb the corporate ladder, so to speak. She coveted position....Instead of living to serve, she became bent to self.

[Robert]

Quote:

ROBERT: That statement comes from hell...

I'm wondering if you are denying my understanding of Ellen White's statement in EW 290, 291 or whether you are saying her statement itself is false.

I reject both her view and your view....That was simple enough....

Rob

[Robert]

Also, what are we to make of Jesus' parable in Luke 12: 45-48, where Jesus speaks of those who will receive more lashes than others, according to their knowledge of truth? It seems clear to me that this statement is related to Jesus' words in Rev. 22: 12, about the rewards He's bringing with Him to give to everyone according to what he has done.

Well, that's your way of cutting & pasting scripture to come up with your view of God...not mine.

Rob

[Robert]

Instead of living to serve, she became bent to self.

Now I asked you a question, John...and you didn't answer me. Instead you reply with more questions.

I will not answer your questions until you answer mine. Do you agree with the following statement?

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[Guest]

John you're wasting your time.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

the god you present is cruel....Fear is the key motivator for the god you create.

it is the same god every religion has in common. a god that needs appeasement, a god out to get you if you mess up.

Here's the way I see it....If God actually commands sinners to murder and pillage other sinners...to kill men, women and children...then the only way I can respond to Him is by and through fear. In others word, "I better be good or God will do the same to me."

[Robert]

John you're wasting your time.

Yes, you and all who preach of a god who actually pays evil with evil are wasting your time. You are hardening your hearts and in character you are becoming more like the god you have created.

"A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering service to God. They will do these things because they haven't known the Father or Me." [John 16:2,3]

"Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?" 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." [Luke 9:54-56]

[teresaq]

Now what we don't understand is how Eve, filled with agape, could be tempted by iniquity. She had no bent-to-self in her members, yet the temptation was, "You'll be just like God".

This is the same sin that Lucifer invented: "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God."

So Eve's temptation was to climb the corporate ladder, so to speak. She coveted position....Instead of living to serve, she became bent to self.

i dont see your lead up the same as you do, or i would state it differently, but here i do agree.

somehow in giving into satans temptation eve "inherited" satans disposition, and adam in giving into fear of losing eve also "inherited" satans disposition, character if you will, "bent to self", as you say. instead of taking the doubts satan had instilled in them to God they gave into satans temptations. that is the (fallen) nature that is passed on to all of us, pride, wanting to be more than we are, at the expense of our fellowman.

[pnattmbtc]

1) Christ and the saints decide every case according to the deeds done in the body. They are not deciding whether someone is lost but what their punishment is to be.

2) Christ and the saints "mete out to the wicked the portion which they MUST suffer, according to their works."

3) The amount of suffering is decided by Christ and the saints during the 1000 years. It is based on a close examination of the lives of the wicked.

4) Some will suffer much longer than others, and this is the result of the decision of Jesus and His people. It is not the result of natural processes. It is due to supernational decisions made by immortal beings in heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

pnattmbtc was saying earlier that God was not trying to force Satan out of heaven but rather that God was trying to get him to stay.

But the fact is that although God did for a very long time give Satan an opportunity to repent, the opporunity for him to repent was past by the time the war in heaven began. This is proved clearly by reading EW 146, where it says, "It was there [at a council] determined that Satan should be expelled from heaven, with all the angels who had joined him in the rebellion. THEN there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God... Satan, with his followers, was DRIVEN from heaven."

This leaves no doubt that before the war began, God had ceased to try to get Satan to stay in heaven but had already decided that Satan must be driven from heaven.

[Robert]

God is in effect saying, "Come join my kingdom, and be happy with Me in heaven for eternity. If you don't, I'll torture you by setting you on fire for days. However, if you do, you can experience an eternity of bliss, and one of your first duties will be to determine how long I should torture your children (or spouse, or parents, or friends)."

Sounds like something Hitler would do....

[pnattmbtc]

JOHN3:17: I believe it makes biblical sense that it was God's will for Satan and the evil angels to come to this earth at the time of the creation for the purpose of testing the new race.

pnattmbtc: God cannot be tempted, and God does not tempt. If God sent an agent to tempt in His behalf, He would be tempting us, but He doesn't tempt. God permitted the wicked angels to come to tempt the race, but this wasn't His will or plan.

J:It's true it was not God's will for Adam and Eve to know what evil or sin is. PP 59: par. 3.

But wasn't it God's will for them to be tested?

Further, wasn't it God's will that Jesus be tempted?

[wayfinder]

The war in the heavens was concerning the same things being argued back and forth here. Is God fair, is He duplicitus, does He have a right to absolute authority. Why would God create beings with the ability and priveledge to make choices and then require them to choose His way and live or the other way that ends in death, the answer is love. When we love God we obey Him, when we don't we disobey. The choice God has given us is a function of love. Jesus stated this clearly when He said if you keep My commandments it shows that you love Me. The evil one did not love God and worked to convince the angels that he had earned the right to rule the earth, that God was not just in His governing. The outcome of the war in heaven was that Satan lost his argument and those who had joined themselves with him, and against God, no longer had a place in heaven. The only place where they could dwell was on this earth, because this earth opened itself to unrighteousness through the disobedience of Adam and Eve. When the Son of God (Michael)purchased a kingdom with His blood, then the work of sanctification began. The process of sanctification is the way to the kingdom of God and the completion of this process is enterence into the kingdom. When the dragon prepares to wage war against the offspring of the Woman (Rev. 12:17) the outcome is much like it was in heaven, there will be those who choose to side with Satan (the beast) and those who side with God (the numberless multitude). When all is accomplished there will not be a place found for those who are with the dragon (the beast), therefore they are no more.

When we come to know God we come to know true love. Only through the truth can we know God.

[pnattmbtc]

John you're wasting your time.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

[wayfinder]

pnatt, I think Richard ment that for me, its ok, I love him, even though he thinks I am on the wide road to destruction. Although I do wonder sometimes where all the other wide roaders are, because most times I feel all alone here on this road.

[Guest]

What motivates you to post things like this?

[Guest]

pnatt, I think Richard ment that for me, its ok, I love him, even though he thinks I am on the wide road to destruction. Although I do wonder sometimes where all the other wide roaders are, because most times I feel all alone here on this road.

How could it be for you, I posted it an hour ago. And I love you too wayf.

[wayfinder]

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Notice these call Him Lord and say they were working for Him, but He says they were practicing lawlessness. Think before you judge.

[wayfinder]

Sorry Richard, my mistake.

[Guest]

That's ok wayf, I still love ya.

[John317]

if the bible were not "super complicated" God would be altogether such an one as ourselves, nothing more.

Ellen G. White wrote, "The truths most plainly revealed in the Bible have been involved in doubt and darkness by learned men, who, with a pretense of great wisdom, teach that the Scriptures have a mystical, a secret, spirtual meaning not apparent in the language employed. These men are false teachers. It was to such a class that Jesus declared: 'Ye know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God.' Mark 12: 24. The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is emplyed. Christ has given the promise: 'If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine.' John 7: 17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error." GC 598, 599

About a year or so ago, there was a man who walked into a Christian church and killed several of the missionaires there and then committed suicide. He left a note in which he expressed anger at God for making the Bible so difficult and "super complicated" that no one can really understand it or be sure what it means. He pointed to all the many differences of interpretation and the many denominations as proof that the Bible is too complicated.

He was wrong. He blamed God for the Bible's being hard to understand. The Bible is actually clear and plain, but it's people who make it complicated, just like the Jewish leaders of Christ's time.

Well, it certainly is hard to understand when readers try their best not to understand it because they find it says things they don't like. Ellen White doesn't say it's complicated. On the contrary, she speaks of the Scriptures' "plain utterances [that] reveal [satan's] deceptions." GC 593.

She says, "Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain 'Thus saith the Lord' in its support." But some people would deny that there is any "plain 'Thus saith the Lord,'" and instead they tell people that they need a pastor or priest to interpret the Bible for them. This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, which is why its leaders rarely encourage the study of the Bible, but instead teach the people that they need to listen to the church's teachers and priests.

Ellen White speaks to this issue in the Great Controversy (p. 69): "Men have been unwearied in their efforst to obscurre the plain, simple meaning of the Scriptures, and to make them contradict their own testimony... the Holy Scriptures have treasures of truth that are revealed only to the earnest, humble, prayerful seeker. God designed the Bible to be a lessonbook to all mankind, in childhood, youth, and manhood, and to be studied through all time."

Let's take the simple statement of Revelation 12: 9: "[The Devil] was forced out and down to the earth, and his angels were flung out along with him" (Amplified). Ellen White agrees over and over again, saying the Devil was "banished," "expelled," "turned out," cast out," yet her plain meaning is made by some into a mystery and she is said to have meant something other than what those words plainly convey.

I believe the true difficulty and "super complication" results from people who take a quote of Ellen White out of context and in this way make the Bible and Ellen White teach something they never intended. Thus they make the Bible look like a hodge-bodge of error and contradiction and claim God's Word is complicated to the point where it can't be readily understood.

If the Bible is so "super-complicated," is God just in expecting that people will understand it and obey it?

[John317]

The war in the heavens was concerning the same things being argued back and forth here....

When we come to know God we come to know true love. Only through the truth can we know God.

I beleive you and I are in agreement on what you wrote in this post, Wayfinder.

[John317]

JOHN3:17: pnattmbtc was saying earlier that God was not trying to force Satan out of heaven but rather that God was trying to get him to stay.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: this is actually what I said, although it's not far off, but you seem not to have understood the meaning I was attempting to convey, so I'll try to be more clear.

I assume that you intended to say, "This is not actually what I said..." Is that right?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: What my point was is that it was not God's will for Satan to leave heaven. God's will was for Satan to repent and stay in heaven. God's will did not change,

Are you saying that God made a decree that was against His own will?

God's will sometimes does change. It was his will for Satan to be saved but after Satan became settled into rebellion against God, it became God's will to banish Him and eventually to cast him to the earth.

You seem to be saying it is still God's will that Satan be saved. Is that right? If not, when did God's will change?

And if it is not God's will that Satan be banished and destroyed, are we to believe that God's will is to be eternally frustrated and defeated?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Also, I don't object to the idea that Satan was driven from heaven, but to the idea that force, or "compelling power," was used to do so. I think GC 542 should be taken into consideration here.

Give me an example of someone being "driven out" of somewhere without being compelled to leave?

How about when cattle or turkeys are "driven out" of the barn?

If you don't think God was using force when He drove Satan out of heaven, what do you think God would have done if Satan had said he was not going to leave after God told him he was "banished"? (This is, of course, precisely what did happen.)

Also, what happens to students if they tell schools who've expelled them that they are refusing to go? This again is similar to what Satan did.

The situation, then, is this:

God told Satan he was banished and could not possibly stay. At this point, Satan was not given a choice but was told that there was no longer a place for him in heaven. But Satan declared that he would resist God's decree to the point of "force, strength against strength, might against might." Then there was a war, and eventually-- probably not too long-- Satan was "thrown out," "expelled," "turned out," and saw the "gates of heaven barred against him." Inspiration says Satan "could not get back inside the gate."

Do you agree with the above description of how Satan was expelled? Let me know if I've neglected anything that would change the essential meaning of the events.

[Robert]

If the Bible is so "super-complicated," is God just in expecting that people will understand it and obey it?

Okay, since you seem to know-it-all, why do we disagree on the Rich Young Ruler? You say he coveted money, but Jesus didn't even include "you shall not covet" when the RYR ruler said, "Which ones [commandments]?"

Yet you say it's easy. Well, it might be easy with preconceived ideas...it might be easy to let Ellen White think for you, but is ain't too easy for many because I swear sometimes some of you wouldn't know truth if it smacked you in the head.

Then there's Job. I've plainly showed you that Job's problem was self-righteousness, but most of you disagree. Again, why? Preconceived ideas....tradition and again you default to Ellen White.

We can go on and on....In fact when it comes to law, you (John) state that the law is still binding on the believer. I've absolutely dis-credited this error, yet you still teach it. How? Preconceived ideas....tradition and again you default to Ellen White.

And lastly, if the Bible is so easily understood then why do you guys always....I mean always...default to the writings of Ellen G. White?

Answer: Because apparently you can't understand Biblical truth so you default to Ellen....

[Robert]

Then there was a war, and eventually-- probably not too long-- Satan was "thrown out,"

Please list the angels who died in this war....Please proved documentation if any of the Trinity had to be hospitalized. About how many of Lucifer's 1/3 of the angels died in action? Yes?