"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[teresaq]

karl, you might as well go out in the yard and find a big rock, or a piece of farm equipment, and talk to it. Your time, nay, our time is valuable. God is going to hold us accountable for it. HE does not want us to waste it arguing with heretics who have already made up their minds in error, and will not change it no matter what you say. Our time would be better spent studying the Bible. (or making ice cubes for that matter)

[teresaq]

Ellen White (I don't think purposely) taught Old Covenant principles. Now I think I understand what she was doing (but that's another subject), yet at face value it looks like EGW is an enemy of the gospel for it looks like she was a legalist....Being a prophet that would mean she was a false prophet.

Now personally I think she has many wonderful things to say....I also think God used her as He does many folks....I just don't buy that I am to take Ellen White's word over the Bible....She didn't have all light....She said she only had a glimmer of the light that was yet to come. She said all light comes from the Bible....

But then there are other statements of EGW I do not accept, but that's cool because she didn't know it all and she isn't the measuring stick of truth. So you will never get me to take EGW over the Bible or place her on par with the Bible.

We are not to try to do the work of the potter. Our part is to yield ourselves to the molding of the Master Worker (Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 186, 187)

Not by painful struggles or wearisome toil, not by gift or sacrifice, is righteousness obtained; but it is freely given to every soul who hungers and thirsts to receive it. "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat;. . . without money and without price." Isa. 55:1. "Their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord," and, "This is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our righteousness." Isa. 54:17; Jer. 23:6. {FLB 109.3}

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 312)

But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of Thy hand. Isaiah 64:8. {LHU 65.1}

While the human agent is devising and planning for himself something that God has withheld him from doing, he has a hard time. He complains and frets, and has still increased difficulties. But when he submits to be as clay in the hands of the potter, then God works the man into a vessel of honor. The clay submits to be worked. If God had His way, hundreds would be worked and made into vessels as He sees best. {LHU 65.2}

[Woody]

If a brother differ with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule, do not place him in a false light, or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text by text in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot really clearly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in a kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ.-- Letter 21, 1888. {CW 50.2}

[John317]

SOME BELIEVE THE ERROR THAT GOD IS TOO MERCIFUL TO DESTROY THE WICKED:

"Guardians... of the people...[say], The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment." 5 T 211

"God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. 'Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as theyself' (Ps. 50: 21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do...

"In no kingdom or government is it left to lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law... God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have dispelased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.

"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do? 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265 (1876).

Your thoughts?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Also, what are we to make of Jesus' parable in Luke 12: 45-48, where Jesus speaks of those who will receive more lashes than others, according to their knowledge of truth? It seems clear to me that this statement is related to Jesus' words in Rev. 22: 12, about the rewards He's bringing with Him to give to everyone according to what he has done.

Well, that's your way of cutting & pasting scripture to come up with your view of God...not mine.

Not only mine but virtually every scholar and Bible commentator I know of.

Could you explain how you understand those verses and, if you would, please support your view on the basis of the actual language?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

How could this be accomplished if they weren't tested and proved faithful?

So in all of God's universe..in all the zillions of inhabited worlds out there, everyone of them was tested, no?

We don't have any idea of the number of inhabited worlds, only that there are many. We can't really say all have been tested, at least in the same way; but it does appear to be consistent with God's way of dealing with his creatures. He gives us a choice to accept or reject Him. Apparently He doesn't give immortality to untested creatures. I think that's wise of Him. Imagine if Satan and his demons had been created immortal. I'm glad they weren't.

[Robert]

Law that has no penalty is of no force.

What's the penalty for transgression?

Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law [i.e., the Gentiles of Paul's day] will also perish [die] without law,

and as many as have sinned in the law [i.e., know the law, as did the Jews] will be condemned by the law 13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

So the law requires perfection. Anything outside perfection and the law says, "You must die". Why? Because iniquity produces "hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy". In other words our "bent-to-self" means that everything I do, even what appears to be good, is for my gain. So the law demands death to the sinner because left on it's own sin will spread like a cancer and eventually ruin God's perfect universe.

The question is "what is justice according to the law". Does it differentiate between the one who sins little vs much? No, I can't find that the law is in the business of torture. It simply demands that sin must be exterminated where ever it is. Such a death has no hope of a resurrection because when the law curses you to death you have no hope of a resurrection.

We are told that Jesus "took the curse of the law". All we need to do is examine how that happened in the life of Christ to see how He experienced the justice of the law. That's what the lost will experience.

[Robert]

We are told that Jesus "took the curse of the law". All we need to do is examine how that happened in the life of Christ to see how He experienced the justice of the law. That's what the lost will experience.

I'm going to quote EGW because I can prove the following from the Bible:

"Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all....The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father’s mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father’s reconciling face [the Father has abandoned Him since Gethsemane]. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt….The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal [that's the 2nd death - the curse of the law]. Christ felt the anguish, which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race." [DA 753]

[Robert]

He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal [that's the 2nd death - the curse of the law]. Christ felt the anguish, which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race." [DA 753]

Did you get that? God abandoned Jesus - God didn't kill Christ (although He says He did). The moment God abandoned Christ that moment sin as a destroyer of life began to work through the Jewish & Romans leaders to publicly torture Christ. Sin did the torturing...that is sinful men eat up with indwelling sin.

But EGW states that Christ's pain was hardly felt with respect to the separation from His Father. You see Christ knew by revelation that He would be raised on the 3rd day, but now the source of His resurrection, God, had abandoned Him. That terrified him. Hence the temptation to come down and save Himself was a tremendous temptation. Christ could have, independent of His Father's will, used His Divinity and come down off the cross and saved Himself. However, if Christ would have gave into this temptation He would have become a sinner. Why? The love of self....

The last generation of Christians will experience the same God abandonment, but not to atone for sin. They believe God has abandoned them. But we are told that "they loved not their lives even unto death". They would rather die eternally then give up and join the opposition.

If Christ would have yielded to temptation (and the temptation was, "screw these guys that are torturing you, to heck with this ungrateful race, come down and save yourself, man!) He would have manifested the principle of self. Instead of giving into temptation, well, let me quote Jack as to what happened:

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape.

[pnattmbtc]

The Bible plainly says that it was God's plan for Jesus Christ to be betrayed and die at the hands of evil men. Read Acts 2: 23, for instance. "God definitely planned and intended to have Him betrayed." Also see Acts 3: 18, part of which reads, "God's Christ HAD TO suffer."

[pnattmbtc]

SOME BELIEVE THE ERROR THAT GOD IS TOO MERCIFUL TO DESTROY THE WICKED:

"Guardians... of the people...[say], The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment." 5 T 211

"God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. 'Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as theyself' (Ps. 50: 21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do...

"In no kingdom or government is it left to lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law... God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have dispelased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.

"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do? 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265 (1876).

Your thoughts?

[Musicman1228]

pnattmbtc said, "Inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits. God had the power to prevent the flood, but chose not to, so one could make the case that God is responsible for the flood occurring, and God accepts this responsibility. Those who look into the matter further can perceive that God has no moral responsibility for the flood, and that the same principles were at play during it as during the destruction of Jerusalem. But taking the perspective that the flood was God's responsibility (since He didn't prevent it when He could have) the point may well be made that we do not have the right to do what He did (i.e. drown others) because we are not the judge of the universe; we do not stand in relation to other human beings as God does. So the principles laid out by the SOP in regards to this are well taken."

WHAT!!!! Are you seriously saying that God stepped aside and 'allowed' the flood to occur? Are you seriously saying that God had 'no moral responsibility' for sending the flood to destroy the wicked? This is incredibly sloppy thinking based on 'inspiritation' and a desire that God is only a God of love and never a God of punishment.

I completely concur that 'we do not stand in relation to other human beings as God does', and that it is not our role to judge anyone with respect to their ultimate disposition. However, to say that God pawned off the destruction of the wicked before the flood on some action of Satan is the equivalent to saying that at the end of time God will lay the responsibility for the final destruction of sin on the author of sin (Satan) simply because you believe that because God is LOVE and He is incapable of 'shooting His own dog' (meaning; calling down fire upon the wicked, including Satan, and destroying them forever). This idea is vacuous and clearly not implied by what is seen in the description and accounts of the flood in Genesis.

God took direct and irrevocable action against those people for whom "every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen.6:5) It was NOT Satan that destroyed the wicked in the Great Flood, and it will not be Satan that destroys his own at the end. Ultimately God will clean up the mess made by sin and Satan and restore this world and the universe back to complete righteousness and harmony. I can't wait.

[pnattmbtc]

MM, I explained that the waters must have been under pressure. We know this from Scripture, the SOP, and science. God acted to allow the pressure to take the waters into the atmosphere, which triggered the flood. This looks to be clear.

My argument is that Satan was morally responsible for the flood, not God, because had the earth not reached the level of moral depravity that it did, God would never have permitted the flood to occur.

[Michaeneu]

“And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” Revelation 12:4

The "third part" is from the Greek word triton, which is the same form of the word used in Revelation 4:7, according to the Greek/English Interlinear Bible. The "third" beast in Revelation 4:7 simply means next in sequence and not associated with proportion so this presents the possibility that the text in 12:4 can be interpreted in the same way. Further, the word "part" was inserted by the translators. One of the key texts that unveils how we are to interpret the “third part” is in first Corinthians.

“Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Fire tests the church, the time of the Gentiles, according to Corinthians. This is key to understanding the “third part” because the book of Zechariah reveals that the “third part” is precisely this trial by fire.

“Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.” Zechariah 13:7-9

(“Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.” Matthew 26:31)

The prophecy in Zechariah was fulfilled at Christ’s first advent; consequently, the “third part” referred to in Zechariah is the time of the Gentiles, the church. It is the church that is designated as the “third part” and that is brought through the fire (this is true also for Revelation chapter 8), confirmed in many NT passages: 1 Corinthians 3:13; Matthew 3:10-11; Matthew 13:40-42; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; Hebrews 12:29; 1 Peter 17. The very fountain of living waters that was opened in Zechariah 13:1 was Christ and he came for the purpose of washing away sin in Jerusalem. So the context of the chapter pertains to Christ’s work upon Jerusalem. The “two parts” that were cut off and died must then designate the temporal city of Jerusalem because it was the second time the city was being judged! The “third part” that is brought through the fire properly represents those who come to heavenly Sion, heavenly Jerusalem. The “third part” pertains to heavenly Jerusalem. This was also confirmed when Christ declared that John the Baptist represented the messenger of Malachi 3:1 (Matthew 11:10-14, Mark 2:2-4, Luke 7:24-27). It is this specific promise of John the Baptist that fulfills Malachi chapter 3.

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.” Malachi 3:1-3

Christ did purify his disciples with the baptism of fire and fulfilled Malachi in Spirit and this was his offering of righteousness before his Father’s throne.

Specifically, the “first part” of Zechariah 13:8 represents the Jerusalem of David and Solomon while the “second part” concerns the time from when Nehemiah rebuilt Jerusalem unto the advent of Christ, the fountain of living waters in Zechariah 13:1. Christ opened the way to come to heavenly Sion and Jerusalem.

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” Hebrews 12:22-24

(“But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.” Galatians 4:26-27)

The individuals of the church are figuratively set upon the walls of heavenly Jerusalem (1 Peter 2:5) and they are prophesied to fall away from their first love in the Revelation.

"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write.... Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Revelation 2:1,4-5

This is but a forecast of the great falling away predicted in the last days.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…” 2Thessalonians 2:3

“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered…. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days…. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.” Revelation 12:1-2,6,13

Note that John sees the woman in heaven but then witnesses her on the earth being pursued by the dragon as he is cast to the earth. The fall of ancient Jerusalem was also depicted in the same way by Jeremiah.

“How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!” Lamentations 2:1

This fall also pertained to the house that Nehemiah and reveals that the vision of the woman in heaven is a metaphor for the glory and services to Yahweh that all three parts had originally when Yahweh established them.

“And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.” Isaiah 51:16

It is in this capacity that Paul and John viewed spiritual Jerusalem in heaven during their time. The position in heaven represents the beauty and glory of the early church/congregation at the presence of Christ and the apostles. As time passed spiritual Jerusalem suffered a fall and this fall is also depicted in the symbolism of the stars in Revelation 12. They appear on the head of the woman but are cast to the earth by the tail of the dragon.

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” Revelation 12:1-4

The stars are upon the head of the woman and thus are innately bound to the identity of the woman. The identity of the stars must remain consistent and pertain to the same entity in verses 1 and 4. The interpretation of the phrase “third part" as being proportional and representing fallen angels simply does not account for all the relevant texts associated with the subject. The overwhelming evidence is that the "stars" represent the sons and daughters of Israel because they are upon the head of the woman who represents Sion. The stars represent the sons and daughters of Sion that the Dragon intends to cast down with his tail, his false prophets. The scriptures reveal overwhelmingly that the stars represent Sion, Yahweh’s people.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race." Psalms 19:1-5

"And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people." Isaiah 51:16

“And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.” Genesis 15:5

The battle is for the high places on this earth (Ephesians 6:12), of which the heavens are a metaphor! There is a battle going on right now for the high places on this earth and we fully attain these high places when Christ returns; this is the battle depicted in Revelation 19 and we are that foul that consumes the substance of the captains and kings of the earth; which is a metaphor for how we inherit the earth and their possessions.

“Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.” Psalms 124:7

How else does Yahweh plant the heavens and the foundation of the earth with Sion? How else do we come to heavenly Sion? How else are we like the stars as Abraham’s seed? Yahweh’s kingdom fills the earth when the rock cut out without hands destroys the image to Nebuchadnezzar, but until that time we come to heavenly Zion on this earth because WE ARE heavenly Sion when the conditions are met. But when the conditions are not met by the influence of the Dragon's false prophets, his tail, then he is able to cast down the sons and daughters to the earth and that is what is depicted in Revelation 12. No doubt that Satan rebelled in heaven and was cast out but the stars in the aforementioned text in Revelation have their interpretation not as fallen angels but as the sons and daughters of Sion.

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:17-18

Christ planted the woman, the sons and daughters in the heavens again at his first advent, depicted as the woman in Revelation 12 and the text also forecasts that the Dragon would once again cast them, the third part, to the earth to eclipse the woman in the heavens; this he did through Rome.

[pnattmbtc]

Oh.

[John317]

“And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” Revelation 12:4

The "third part" is from the Greek word triton, which is the same form of the word used in Revelation 4:7, according to the Greek/English Interlinear Bible.

The word, triton is used 57 times in the NT, and 22 of those times occur in the book of Revelation. In 14 of these instances in Revelation, it has the same construction and meaning as in Rev. 12: 4. The latter are all listed and quoted near the bottom of this post.

If we compare Rev. 8 7, 12, it becomes readily apparent that "the third" or "a third" in Rev. 12: 4 simply means a large part of the whole-- i.e., less than half. Whether we say "a third" or "a third part" or "the third" is unimportant.

The idea of verse 4 is that 1/3 of the angels were thrown to the earth as a result of the rebellion of Satan, since they joined him. Verse 4 refers to them in the context of the warfare of Satan on the earth in His attempt to destroy the woman who was about to give birth to the Messiah.

Rev. 12: 4 signifies, then, that Satan and his demons were attempting to destroy God's people, the Jews, from whom came the Messiah. The historical proof that Satan did this is found all through the Old Testament, but particularly in books such as Esther and Daniel, as well as in the Gospels where we see Satan inspiring men to kill the Christ child as soon as He was born.

Quote:

Michaeneu: The "third" beast in Revelation 4:7 simply means next in sequence and not associated with proportion so this presents the possibility that the text in 12:4 can be interpreted in the same way.

This isn't true, and for the following reasons:

Because of the way it's used, it couldn't possibly be referring to a sequence. All you need to do is be able to check the way it's always translated.

Why is it always translated as "the third of the stars"? Because that is the only possibility. "Stars" is a genitive plural noun. "To triton" is an accustive adjective.

By contrast, "to triton" in Rev. 4: 7 is nominative, as is also its noun, Zoo-on, which means "animal," or "living creature."

The same syntax that we find in Rev. 12: 4 is also found in the following verses in Revelation:

Rev. 8: 7-- a third of the trees

8: 8-- a third of the seas

8: 9-- a third of the creatures

8: 9-- a third of the ships

8: 10-- a third of the rivers

8: 11-- a third of the waters

8: 12-- a third of the sun

v. 12-- a third of the moon

v. 12-- a third of the stars

v. 12-- a third of them (the stars)

v. 12-- a third of it (the day)

NOTE: contrast the above with the first part of v. 12, which has "the fourth angel." Its construction is, "ho tetartos aggelos," in which the definite article and its adjective are nominative singular masculine, and the noun is also nominative. It can only be translated, "the fourth angel," never "the fourth of the angel." Nor could you ever translate the phrases given above as "a third star" or "the third stars."

Let me know if you can see this point clearly. If you can't, I will gladly try to explain it more clearly, step by step.

Rev. 9:15-- "a third of the men"

9: 18-- "a third of men"

12: 4-- "a third of the stars"

Conclusion: I believe you can see that "a third of the stars" could not possibly be translated as "the third stars" or the "the third star." If it could be, you would probably be able find some translations that make it read this way. The fact that no such translation exists is a pretty good indication that it's an impossible translation.

Rev. 12: 4 signifies that Satan and his demons-- a large portion of the angels-- were attempting to destroy God's people, the Jews, from whom came the Messiah. The historical proof that Satan did this is found all through the Old Testament, but particularly in books such as Esther and Daniel, as well as in the Gospels where we see Satan inspiring men to kill the Christ child as soon as He was born.

[John317]

...

....Are you seriously saying that God stepped aside and 'allowed' the flood to occur? Are you seriously saying that God had 'no moral responsibility' for sending the flood to destroy the wicked? This is incredibly sloppy thinking based on 'inspiritation' and a desire that God is only a God of love and never a God of punishment.

I completely concur that 'we do not stand in relation to other human beings as God does', and that it is not our role to judge anyone with respect to their ultimate disposition. However, to say that God pawned off the destruction of the wicked before the flood on some action of Satan is the equivalent to saying that at the end of time God will lay the responsibility for the final destruction of sin on the author of sin (Satan) simply because you believe that because God is LOVE and He is incapable of 'shooting His own dog' (meaning; calling down fire upon the wicked, including Satan, and destroying them forever). This idea is vacuous and clearly not implied by what is seen in the description and accounts of the flood in Genesis.

God took direct and irrevocable action against those people for whom "every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen.6:5) It was NOT Satan that destroyed the wicked in the Great Flood, and it will not be Satan that destroys his own at the end. Ultimately God will clean up the mess made by sin and Satan and restore this world and the universe back to complete righteousness and harmony. I can't wait.

Hey Wayfinder, we're in complete agreement on this, at least on the part you wrote above.

I also can't wait until all is peace and harmony in the universe once again, but in the meantime I know you will agree that we have a lot of work to do to try to save as many people as possible through the preaching of the gospel.

Some time soon we have to get together and talk about what that gospel is. I'd planned to do it in January, but something happened to cause me to be unable to.

[teresaq]

this is the unifying view of God.

thank you for proving it. :)

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: SOME BELIEVE THE ERROR THAT GOD IS TOO MERCIFUL TO DESTROY THE WICKED:

"Guardians... of the people...[say], The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment." 5 T 211

"God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. 'Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as theyself' (Ps. 50: 21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do...

"In no kingdom or government is it left to lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law... God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have dispelased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.

"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do? 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265 (1876).

Your thoughts?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: There are two sets of quotes to look at. I think your response that all the quotes that I presented was only saying that God won't force us to obey was highly simplistic.....

I will go back to the quotes you refer to here and rewrite my reply.

In the meantime, could you please speak directly to the EGW quote in 12 MR 207-209?

Notice that Ellen White says plainly that "God drowned the vast world." The people destroyed themselves by their rejection of God, yes, but it is clear that it was God who caused the flood which drowned the wicked. The SOP even says straightfowardly that "God causes the destruction of the wicked" (3 SG 79, 80; EW 52). That is exactly what also occurred at Sodom and will again happen in the final destruction of the wicked. Ellen White declares clearly in plain English that Jesus and the saints determine the amount of suffering that the wicked MUST suffer. This means that the amount of suffering the wicked undergo will not be arbitrary or coincidental. It will be according to the works they have done.

Then she says that God will do what He says He will do, and she obviously means that God will punish sin and unrepentant sinners in fire. The same fire that destroys the wicked will cleanse the earth. Ellen White wrote that she saw the very rocks of the earth on fire. God combines the fire from heaven with the fire on the earth to destroy the wicked and the earth. The fires on the earth are man-made, coming from man's weapons, possibly including nuclear ones. This is, of course, a real, literal fire.

"If we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love" (SC 34).

The above line shows that to say the wicked destroy themselves is not a denial that God destroys them with fire. How do we know this? We know this because of Ellen White's and the Bible's many statements such as, "God will destroy the wicked from off the earth." PP 110. "God executes judgment upon the wicked" (GC 541). "God will finally destroy the rejectors of His grace" (GC 543). This agrees with Scripture, "All the wicked will He destroy" (Ps. 145: 20). "God drowned the vast world" in the flood (12 MR 209).

[John317]

this is the unifying view of God.

For teresaq(sda):

"Guardians... of the people...[say], The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment." 5 T 211

"God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. 'Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as theyself' (Ps. 50: 21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do...

"In no kingdom or government is it left to lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law... God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have dispelased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.

"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?" 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265 (1876).

Your thoughts?

[John317]

this is the unifying view of God.

Stephen N. Haskell wrote:

The Fate of the Wicked

Ps. 73: 12-18. When David entered the sanctuary he clearly understood the fate of the wicked. The sanctuary service taught it plainly.

Lev. 3: 14- 17; 16: 25. All the fat was separated from the sacrifice and burned.

Ps. 37: 20. The burning of the fat symbolized the burning of sin and sinners in the fires of the last days.

Lev. 4: 8-12; Lev. 6: 10, 11. Even the care of the ashes taken from the altar taught an important lesson. They were not thrown carelessly aside, but were emptied out on a "clean place" prepared for the purpose.

Mal. 4: 3. The antitype will be fully met when the fires of the last day have fully consumed Satan and the wicked, and all that remains of them will be ashes upon the "clean" earth. Ezekiel 28: 18.

Story of Daniel the Prophet, pp. 269, 270.

Do you have any quotes from James White, Uriah Smith, J.N. Andrews, or Joseph Bates, on their beliefs about the destruction of the wicked?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

this is the unifying view of God.

Stephen N. Haskell wrote:

The Fate of the Wicked

and that changes the fact....how?

God is waiting for a people to perfectly represent Him.

to perfectly represent Him, we have to know Him perfectly, and there is only one way to do that.

[wayfinder]

And that would be, scantified by the truth, the testimony of God is truth.

[Guest]

Zactly!

[pnattmbtc]

In the meantime, could you please speak directly to the EGW quote in 12 MR 207-209?