"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

Give me an example of someone being "driven out" of somewhere without being compelled to leave?

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.

The context of the above is Christ's murder where Jesus was crucified. The Bible states of Satan, "He was a murderer from the beginning" [John 8:44]

John didn't say, "the ruler of this world has already been driven out"....No, it says, "will be driven out".

Was Satan compelled here ("driven out")? No! Rather he was exposed!!! The murder of Christ exposed what was in Satan's heart....He was metaphorically driven out in the open so the world could see the motives behind Satan's love of self results in murder. Hence, to be "driven out" can also mean to be exposed.

Rob

[Robert]

He was metaphorically driven out in the open so the world could see the motives behind Satan's love of self results in murder. Hence, to be "driven out" can also mean to be exposed.

The following is by, Jack Sequeira:

We must ask ourselves is what did Jesus mean by, “He was a murderer from the beginning.” In order that we come to grips with the full import of this statement, we must answer two further questions:

1. Who did Satan murder?

2. What did Jesus mean by the word “beginning”? Did He mean from the time Lucifer was created or from the time Lucifer became Satan?

Before we can answer these questions we first need to define the word murder. To human beings murder is the act of killing somebody. But in God’s eyes murder begins with a cherished desire... as shown in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus made it clear, if you are angry with somebody...you have already committed murder in your heart. (Matt. 5:21, 22) So, according to God’s law, murder doesn’t have to be an act. Murder is a cherished hatred against somebody else.

With this in mind, turn to Ezek. 28:15....In verse fifteen we read these words concerning the anointed cherub, which is Lucifer: “Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” Now the Hebrew word, “iniquity” means “crooked” and when applied spiritually means “to be bent towards self.” Sometime in the history of Lucifer his mind became perverted. Instead of his love going toward God and toward his fellow angels it made a U-turn towards himself.

In Isaiah 14:12-14, the prophet Isaiah describes to us what was the essence of that iniquity. Summarizing these verses, this is in effect what Lucifer said in his heart, “I am going to get rid of God and take His place.”

Now you cannot take the place of God unless you first get rid of God. It is in this sense Lucifer, turned Satan, was a murderer from the beginning. Now Satan did not say to God, “Move, I want a place with you.” That is not what Satan desired. He desired to get rid of God that he could have His place instead. It is because of coveting the place of God in his heart that Lucifer, turned Satan, desired to murder God.

Unfortunately, one-third of the angels fell for his lies. Satan thought that was enough to begin a revolution....The only means by which God could expose Satan was to let him have his own way.

So, instead, God cast him out of heaven. Following this incident, Satan came to this world and deceived Eve, and through Eve he brought about the fall of Adam. Since God gave our first parents dominion of the world (Psalms 8:4-8), by defeating Adam and Eve Satan gained control of this whole world. Satan then established his kingdom here on earth, under his own system, the system of self.

Everything, therefore, in this fallen world is based on three fundamental drives found in 1 John 2:15,16, “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.” Underlying these three basic drives of sinful man is the principle of self, the very essence of Satan’s kingdom.

But one day, many centuries later, Satan heard some beautiful singing. It was, “Glory to God and peace to men on earth.” (Luke 2:14) The Son of God, his bitter enemy, had come to this world to redeem the human race from his hands. In response, Satan said, “I am not going to wait till you grow up.” Satan doesn’t believe in fair play. “I’m going to get you the first chance I have.”

Recorded in the New Testament are many incidents of how Satan’s many attempts to kill Christ failed. The first attempt recorded was the destruction of the babies in Bethlehem by Herod’s army. Herod the great was a victim of Satan who was simply using him as a tool. This familiar story, as we all know, ended in failure as far as getting rid of Christ. Incidentally, all of Satan’s agents are “great.” That is what he promises, “If you follow me, I will make you great.” But remember, he is a liar.

In Luke 4:9-17 we have recorded another attempt of Satan to murder Christ. It is in connection with the temptations of Christ in the wilderness. In one of them the devil took Christ to the top of the temple tower. He said, “It is wonderfully high here. Why don’t you jump?” That was one way of getting rid of Him. That is what Satan had in mind but he failed again.

Again, in John 10:31-59, we see how the devil used the Jews to try to stone Jesus to death. The word “again” in this passage indicates that this was not the first time he tried it. As we read these verses we will discover that Satan failed again. We must ask ourselves why. Why did Satan fail? Here are two texts that will help us realize why all these attempts of Satan failed. The first one is in John 7:30, which records one of the instances where Satan tried to destroy Jesus through human beings. “Then they sought to take Him: but no man laid hands on Him, [John tells us why] because His hour was not yet come.”

Keep that in mind because God is sovereign and nobody ever touches us if our hour has not yet come. In chapter eight, verse twenty we find the second text: “These words spake Jesus in the treasury as He taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on Him; for his hour was not yet come.” In other words, God would not allow anyone to touch Him until His hour was come. His hour did come in Gethsemane.

In Luke 22:53, when Jesus was in Gethsemane, the priests brought the soldiers and they took Jesus captive as if He was a criminal. Listen to what Jesus tells them: “When I was daily with you in the temple, you stretched forth no hands against me: [we know why—his hour had not yet come] but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”

This “power of darkness” is Satan. In other words, God said to His Son at Gethsemane, “Son, I am going to remove my protection from you and let Satan do with you what he wanted to do to us from the beginning.” This was the only way that God could expose the secrets of the hidden heart of Satan to the universe.

The cross has exposed Satan. No longer does anyone in the universe, the heavenly angels or the unfallen worlds, have any more sympathy with Satan; because on the cross he revealed his true heart. He’s a murderer of God. Satan had kept his hatred for God so long hidden in his heart that when the opportunity was given him he could not help himself but, through the Jews, did what he really intended from the time iniquity entered his mind. Thus, that which was hidden in his heart was now brought out in the open.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17But wasn't it God's will for them to be tested?

Further, wasn't it God's will that Jesus be tempted?

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pnattmbtc: If you mean permissive will, yes, to both. If you mean ideal will, yes to the first one, and no to the second. God allowed Jesus to be tempted, but it wasn't His will. If it were His (ideal) will, then He would have tempted Jesus Himself, if the devil didn't do it.

Ellen White makes it plain that God's will was for Adam to be tested, because without being tested, God could not make Him immortal.

You can be sure that when God "cast" Satan and the evil angels to the earth, He knew that Satan would tempt Adam. In fact, God warned Adam that Satan was going to tempt him. It was not God's plan for the humans to fall, but I don't see any way around the conclusion that God's will was for them to be tempted.

Was it not God's will for the beings on the other worlds to be tempted? If not, why did God place a tree of life and a tree of knowledge on them?

Matt. 4: 1 says that "Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert for the purpose of being put to the test by the Devil." This is the translation of Kenneth S. Wuest, teacher Emeritus of New Testament Greek at the Moody Bible Institute. All translations read basically the same, signifying that Jesus was conveyed or led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness in order to be tested.

It's hard to believe that God led Jesus into the desert for a purpose that was against His own will. Wasn't that one of the chief purposes of Christ's coming into this world-- that is, to undergothe same tests that Adam failed? How else could Jesus save mankind, apart from being tested? Was there any other way? I don't know of one.

The same with Christ's death. It was certainly God's will that Jesus Christ die, right? The Bible says that Christ's death was something that "had to happen." It was God's will.

God wants the wicked to be saved, but if they don't choose life and righteousness, God's will is that they perish, in the same way that God's will is for Satan and the evil angels to perish. This does not mean God ever wanted them to do what they did, any more than He wanted the the people of Sodom to choose evil, but once they deserved to be destroyed, it was clearly God's will to destroy them. Given what the Bible teaches, it would make no sense theologically to say that it was never God's will that Sodom be destroyed.

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JOHN3:17: If God did not intend for Adam to be tested, why did He place the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of the Garden and command him not to eat of it?

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pnattmbtc: My objection is not in regards to Adam and Eve being tested, but in regards to the idea that God sent Satan to the earth for this purpose.

Can you give another reason, supported by Scripture, for God to send Satan to the earth.

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JOHN3:17: Ellen White specifically says, "Before [Adam and Eve] could be rendered eternally secure, their loyalty must be tested"? She says the tree of knowledge "was to be a test of the obedience, faith, and love of our first parents... They were to be exposed to the temptations of Satan..." PP 48, 49.

The word's "was to be a test" and "were to be exposed to the temptations" proves that it was God's will. Those words can only be understood to mean it was God's intention.

Genesis 3: 22-24 show that it was God's plan that the humans only be given the gift of immortality if they passed the test of obedience and loyalty to Him.

I don't see how those words can be understood in any other way than that God's will was for Adam and Eve to be tempted or tested.

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pnattmbtc: God doesn't tempt anyone. How could it be His will for someone to be tempted if this isn't something He would do Himself? (unless you mean permissive will)

Because it was part of God's plan for the human race-- that they demonstrate their loyalty before they would receive the gift of immortality. How could this be accomplished if they weren't tested and proved faithful? It was God's will from the beginning that humans be given immortality. God's will was delayed by the temptation and fall of Adam, but God's will for man to become immortal and live with Him forever will eventually be fulfilled. In fact, because of the Fall, mankind will be raised up even higher than he would have been had he never fallen.

If it was God's will for Satan NOT to tempt Adam and Eve, why did God cast Satan to the earth?

If you say that God did not cast Satan to the earth, I will ask why the Bible says that Satan was cast to the earth. And, further, I would ask why the language is put in the passive voice which can only mean that the "casting out" was done to Satan rather than something Satan did of his own accord.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Then there was a war, and eventually-- probably not too long-- Satan was "thrown out,"

Please list the angels who died in this war....Please proved documentation if any of the Trinity had to be hospitalized. About how many of Lucifer's 1/3 of the angels died in action? Yes?

You gotta be kidding.

Are you saying you deny there was a war in heaven where Satan lost the battle and was expelled from heaven?

Your comment here reminds me a bit of the time when the Russians said they proved God doesn't exist because they didn't see Him while they were up in space.

[Robert]

Ellen White makes it plain that God's will was for Adam to be tested, because without being tested, God could not make Him immortal.

Unacceptable....You are defaulting to Ellen G. White. Why? You can't prove it from the Bible....I thought that the Bible was easy to understand, no?

[Robert]

You gotta be kidding.

Are you saying you deny there was a war in heaven where Satan lost the battle and was expelled from heaven?

If there was war someone...some angel was hurt, maned or killed. In war there is death, unless this wasn't really a war like we see here on earth on the battlefield.

Since there's no record of 1/3 the angels not making it to this world, then apparently it wasn't a traditional war as we know war here on this earth....

[Robert]

How could this be accomplished if they weren't tested and proved faithful?

So in all of God's universe..in all the zillions of inhabited worlds out there, everyone of them was tested, no?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Ellen White makes it plain that God's will was for Adam to be tested, because without being tested, God could not make Him immortal.

Unacceptable....You are defaulting to Ellen G. White. Why? You can't prove it from the Bible....I thought that the Bible was easy to understand, no?

Mrs. White's great. I know you must realize this, Rob, because I've noticed you default to Ellen White when you can't prove from the Bible that there will be babies saved in heaven.

What's in the Bible is clear, yes, but that doesn't mean there's no purpose in God's sending a prophet for our day. God sent a prophet in our time because believers weren't studying and practicing God's Word like they should have. She was sent to point them to the Scriptures and to tell them in plain English what God wanted, so they would have no excuse for not understanding and obeying.

Ellen White says many things that aren't in the Bible. If she only repeated what is in the Bible, there would not be much purpose in her writings. Just like if Joshua only repeated what is in the Torah, why write the book of Joshua? And so on and so forth.

[Robert]

It was certainly God's will that Jesus Christ die, right? The Bible says that Christ's death was something that "had to happen." It was God's will.

There you go presenting a God who compels....No, the Trinity, before the foundation of the earth was laid, discussed this....They all agreed that this was the only way to legally satisfy the claims of God's law....SO there was no compulsion.

John, if you see God as one who compels then you will become more like the God you present. That's scary...

Rob

[Robert]

I noticed you fall back on Ellen White when you can't prove from the Bible that there will be babies saved in heaven.

[John317]

If there was war someone...some angel was hurt, maned or killed. In war there is death, unless this wasn't really a war like we see here on earth on the battlefield.

Since there's no record of 1/3 the angels not making it to this world, then apparently it wasn't a traditional war as we know war here on this earth....

Yes, it was not a "traditional war" as when mortals take out cannons and rifles to kill one another. I don't think anyone has mentioned they think the angels were out to kill each other.

Remember it is not God's will for any of the angels to die yet. He wants them to live so they will demonstrate their characters and the results of rebellion.

Jesus said there will come a time, though, when the devil and his angels will be thrown into the fires prepared for them. Do you believe that? I do. At that time they will be uttered destroyed, along with all the wicked who follow Satan. When it is done and finished, the Bible says the righteous will say, "Amen." Not because they are glad the lost are no more but because they are joyful that God's righteousness won the conflict and sin no longer exists in the universe. That is something to really look forward to!!

[Robert]

She was sent to tell them in plain English what God wanted, so they would have no excuse not to understand and obey.

Okay, are you "obeying" what she states here?

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. [Advent Review and Sabbath Herald DT- 05-07-01]

1] Are you rendering "complete obedience" to God's law?

2] If not then EGW says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: Ellen White says many things that aren't in the Bible.

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ROBERT: Bingo....That should signal red flags...Beware...danger.

I think you may have thought I said she says many things that are contrary to the Bible.

As it is, can you show anything in the Bible that says "beware" of anyone who says things that are not in the Bible? That is different from saying things opposed to the Bible, isn't it?

That is like Joshua saying many things not in the books of Moses. But the important point is that Joshua agrees with Moses. The test is not that he says some things for the first time.

Wouldn't we expect a genuine prophet to say things not found in the Bible? Or should a prophet only repeat what's already been written and no more?

Would you prohibit God from adding anything or giving any new visions and dreams that were not already given 2000 years ago?

[Robert]

Yes, it was not a "traditional war" .... I don't think anyone has mentioned they think the angels were out to kill each other.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: Jesus said there will come a time, though, when the devil and his angels will be thrown into the fires prepared for them. Do you believe that? I do.

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ROBERT: No! It is not literal....Angels aren't throwing fallen angels in the fire....It's symbolic....

Of course the "throwing" part is not literal, but the part about the evil angels being destroyed in fire from God is literal. The fire will be on the surface of the earth, and it will destroy both the wicked angels and the wicked people.

Give a brief description of what you believe the destruction of the wicked will be like. How do you see it happening?

[Robert]

As it is, can you show anything in the Bible that says "beware" of anyone who says things that are not in the Bible?

Phil 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision ; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more :

Ellen White (I don't think purposely) taught Old Covenant principles. Now I think I understand what she was doing (but that's another subject), yet at face value it looks like EGW is an enemy of the gospel for it looks like she was a legalist....Being a prophet that would mean she was a false prophet.

Now personally I think she has many wonderful things to say....I also think God used her as He does many folks....I just don't buy that I am to take Ellen White's word over the Bible....She didn't have all light....She said she only had a glimmer of the light that was yet to come. She said all light comes from the Bible....

But then there are other statements of EGW I do not accept, but that's cool because she didn't know it all and she isn't the measuring stick of truth. So you will never get me to take EGW over the Bible or place her on par with the Bible.

[Robert]

Of course the "throwing" part is not literal, but the part about the evil angels being destroyed in fire from God is literal. The fire will be on the surface of the earth, and it will destroy both the wicked angels and the wicked people.

Yes, I know they will die....But it isn't at God's hand in the active sense...."He delivers them over" much like Christ was handed over....God retreats and things come undone.

[Robert]

Give a brief description of what you believe the destruction of the wicked will be like. How do you see it happening?

I don't like to focus on this....but...

The wicked are those who have persistently and ultimately rejected God's love as seen in the life of Christ. They have now purposely rebelled against God's agape love and have joined Satan and his love of self. Since sin brings death (the wages of sin is death) God, in the end, will "hand them over" to the results of their own choices. When God abandons the wicked this earth will come apart....It's slowly doing that now, but I believe God is preventing much even though we see bad things happen even now.

When God releases His protection and sustaining power goes with Him. When that happens the wicked will be destroyed. It's just that I don't buy this torture thing....Eternal death is justice....It's final...it's forever without the possibility of a resurrection.

Here's the thing...outside God is only death...not because God kills, but because God is the author of life.....God doesn't compel anyone to be saved or lost. He draws "all men" to Himself by His agape love...

He opens our eyes to the truth about Satan's lies concerning his system of self and then He wants his fallen children to make an informed, intelligent decision. But those who knowingly chose Lucifer's system over God's will reap their own choice....They choose death, not because God kills, but because outside God's sustaining love and power is death....

But the key to accepting God must be because we see a love that is beyond belief....We see a God who was willing not to just die for 3 days, but was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that His murderers might have heaven in His place....That's agape....Fear is not part of the equation. If anything fear not having God in your life....

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: It was certainly God's will that Jesus Christ die, right? The Bible says that Christ's death was something that "had to happen." It was God's will.

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ROBERT: There you go presenting a God who compels....No, the Trinity, before the foundation of the earth was laid, discussed this....They all agreed that this was the only way to legally satisfy the claims of God's law....SO there was no compulsion.

John, if you see God as one who compels then you will become more like the God you present. That's scary...

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about what occurred in heaven before Christ became human.

The Bible plainly says that it was God's plan for Jesus Christ to be betrayed and die at the hands of evil men. Read Acts 2: 23, for instance. "God definitely planned and intended to have Him betrayed." Also see Acts 3: 18, part of which reads, "God's Christ HAD TO suffer."

Of course the pre-incarnate Christ voluntarily came here. But I am referring to its being God's will for Jesus of Nazareth to die on the cross. When He came here, He knew what He was going to suffer. He came anyway. That's the amazing thing.

It was clearly God's plan for this to happen. The entire Bible speaks of it as God's plan. How else was God going to save mankind?

By the way, this doesn't mean that the men who killed Jesus weren't responsible for their actions. They freely chose to do what they did.

[Robert]

The Bible plainly says that it was God's plan for Jesus Christ to be betrayed and die at the hands of evil men.

God didn't "will" for Jesus to be mistreated and murdered...but in His foreknowledge He knew it would happen. In fact it was the only way to bring Satan out of his hiding place and prove him to be a murderer.

[John317]

The wicked are those who have persistently and ultimately rejected God's love as seen in the life of Christ. They have now purposely rebelled against God's agape love and have joined Satan and his love of self. ...When God releases His protection and sustaining power goes with Him. When that happens the wicked will be destroyed. It's just that I don't buy this torture thing....Eternal death is justice....It's final...it's forever without the possibility of a resurrection.

OK, sure. We're more in agreement than you think.

But I don't see a great deal of difference between God abandoning the wicked to a world that's falling apart and His sending down fire and destroying them.

I mean it all results in the same thing-- the destruction of the wicked. God knows what's going to happen when he "abandons" the wicked. He could prevent it but He chooses not to because it is His will at that point for the wicked to perish. His will is for sin to come to an end. So he abandons the wicked to the consequences of their own choices.

But if we say, as the Bible does, that the fire comes down from God out of heaven, the wicked die not because God abandons them to a self-destructing world but because the justice of God requires that sin be punished, the results are the same. God, as it were, is pulling the plug on sin and on those who choose to hold on to it.

The main difference is that God is in direct charge of the death of wicked if we say He sends fire down on them. He controls how much they suffer for their sins; and a loving, merciful, just God will not allow the wicked to suffer any more than justice requires.

I'm finding more and more people today who think that the wicked destroy each other with their weapons and that they also destroy Satan and his evil angels. I find this hard to believe. It would be like a court sentencing murderers to be murdered by a bunch of cut-throats and leaving it up to them to decide how it should be done and how long the criminals suffer. How would this be justice?

I find it makes much more biblical sense for it to be decided by Jesus Christ, who, after all, is the Judge, and One who has proven byond all question that He loves every human being. I trust Him with this responsibility, wouldn't you? He's certainly proved He's worthy of our trust.

[Robert]

God knows what's going to happen when he "abandons" the wicked. He could prevent it but He chooses not to because it is His will at that point for the wicked to perish.

That's where we differ....It's their choice...they have rejected the author of life. They have chosen Lucifer, the god of this world, as their god. Because God is agape...because He does not compel (although it seems He does in the OT) He can't in love prevent their death unless He compels them to accept Him. But of course you really can't, using free-will, compel someone to accept you if they hate you, right?

So it's all free-will. Since the wicked reject God...God, who is bound by the principle of agape, must remove Himself....What happens then?

"Then My anger [from the human point of view it looks like God is angry] will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, 'Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?'

[John317]

God didn't "will" for Jesus to be mistreated and murdered...but in His foreknowledge He knew it would happen. In fact it was the only way to bring Satan out of his hiding place and prove him to be a murderer.

Yes, for sure God knew it would happen. But the Bible says it was more than simply knowing what would happen. It says it was God's plan and that God brought it to fulfillment. (Again, this doesn't mean people didn't freely choose to do what they did.)

Acts 2: 23 says, Jesus "was delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God." Acts 3: 18, "The things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, God has thus fulfilled."

What do you believe these verses are saying and what do they mean to you?

I must be off to bed now. It is 2: 40 am here and I want to get up and go to church. I'll be back in the afternoon.

[Robert]

What do you believe these verses are saying and what do they mean to you?

[pnattmbtc]

p:Who are you to judge another as being a heretic?

R:If such judgments could not be made, then That text would have no place in the Bible.