"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

No. I don't believe God would have forced Satan to stay here if Adam and Eve had passed the test.

Ok, so you're pretty much agreeing with what I've been saying. Satan had free reign to go anywhere,

Why do you believe my statement that "God would not have forced Satan to stay here if Adam and Eve had passed the test" signifies that "Satan had free reign to go anywhere"? I can't see how the last statement follows from the first. Actually it means the opposite: God would not have allowed Satan to continue to tempt Adam and Eve if they had passed the test, and it appears that this would have meant Satan had to go elsewhere.

I believe the evidence shows that Satan did not have "free reign to go anywhere." The Bible says he was thrown out of heaven, and the SOP says Satan and the fallen angels were "banished from heaven" and "could not enter within its gates." Ellen White's language such as that Satan was "driven" and "expelled" from heaven and that God barred the gates of heaven to Satan cannot be logically harmonized with the view that Satan was free to go into heaven whenever he chose.

Notice that in the book of Job, Satan asks God for permission to do harm to Job's family, etc., and then again to do harm to Job himself. God has Satan on a leash, as it were. He is not free to do just anything or go just anywhere. His movements and actions are restricted by God.

Quote:

Where I'd disagree with what you wrote here was that Satan was forced to stay here. He obviously wasn't (e.g. Job 1:6 makes this clear).

This is kind of similar to thinking that a quote from Ellen White about God not using force is a universal principle.

First off, as the SDA Bible Commentary reminds us, we don't know where the the sons of God came together to present themselves before the Lord (Job 1: 6; 2;1) We're not told where this was. We know that he was banished from heaven, and could not come and go as he wished, but that does not mean that God couldn't have given him permission to attend some councils.

As an example: when a student is expelled from a school, it doesn't mean the school can't give him permission to attend a meeting or some kind of event. If we see at a school a student we know was expelled, does it mean he wasn't expelled after all? No. It means he got permission to attend a special function. This may be what happened in the instances recorded in the book of Job. Or it could be that the heavenly council met on another world.

The SDA Bible Commentary on Job 1: 6 says, "The place is not specified and hence cannot be known. It does not appear reasonable that the scene took place in heaven itself, for Satan was excluded from its precincts (Rev. 12: 7-9; SR 26, 27). He did have a degree of access to other world (see EW 290)."

For the sake of discussion, however, let's assume that the council was in heaven. Would Satan's appearance there be evidence or proof that Satan was free to go anywhere? Not if we accept what we find in Rev. 12: 8,9 and 2 Peter 2: 6 as well as the many passages in Ellen White's writings which distinctly tell us that Satan could not go within the gates of heaven. She says he was "driven out," "turned out," "banished," "expelled," and the "gates of heaven barred" against him and the other evil angels. (See GC 498-500; EW 146; CG 178; 6 BC 1116; 7 BC 972-973; CT 268; etc.)

Also, as pointed out already, Job 1: 10-12 and 2: 6-7 shows that Satan's activities are restricted by God. Ellen White also shows the same thing. For instance, she says that "Satan is not permitted to counterfeit the manner of Christ's advent" (GC 625).

This is the case until the end of human probation, at which time Satan will be allowed to work his will with the wicked (GC 614). Until then, Satan cannot go everywhere he wants to, nor can he do everything he wants to do.

Quote:

I also recall reading that after the cross the trees were removed from the other worlds, so Satan had access to the other worlds until this time, assuming I'm not making this up. (I feel about 50% sure that I'm remember this correctly).

I wouldn't doubt the quote you refer to. I remember something similar. I believe that God allowed him some access to the other worlds, but it was obviously with many restrictions, and Satan didn't have free reign to go anywhere he wanted or do whatever he felt like. I contend that the evidence shows Satan was forced out of heaven and that he was forced to stay out-- with the possible exception of the councils mentioned in Job. Satan may have been allowed to attend these councils-- whenever and wherever they met-- until the death of Christ.

It seems to me that the possible exceptions referred to here is a good example of how we can be wrong to think a particular statement is a univeral principle.

[karl]

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 THESS. 2:8.] Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

I think this quote highlights the trouble. Thanks for picking this one out and posting it, Gerry.

The wicked do themselves in. They are consumed by God's glory.

We can argue this 'til the cows come home, but the bottom line is that God is in charge of life. Some would like to have Him absolved of death, but the absence of life IS death. So, Whoever is in charge of life is defacto in charge of death.

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow.

[Guest]

Praise him all creatures hear me lo.

[John317]

In heaven Lucifer began to re-think God's agape love. ....

For 6000 years we have seen Lucifer's principle at work. Because God has allowed Lucifer to develop his type of love God assumes the blame for all the fallout produced from such love, that is, until the day of atonement when God places the blame where it belongs; On Satan...

Jack Sequiera?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Who can argue with that{GC88 37.2}?!

Me! It's not Bible....It's outside the Bible....Even EGW states that you are not to use her writings for deciding doctrinal issues. Those who do have joined themselves to a cult.....

If she meant what you say, we might as well throw her books away. This is exactly what you have said before should happen. But Ellen White said that her books should be in all the homes of SDAs and should be studied by everyone. So it should be obvious that she wasn't suggesting that people shouldn't read and accept what she says.

Lest anyone misunderstand, none of the above means that we should not make the Bible first and most important in our study and practice. (Personally, I study the Bible about 5 hours or more for every hour that I study the Spirit of prophecy.)

SDA doctrines are based on the Bible, not on Ellen White's writings. But there's a difference between not basing doctrines on the Bible and getting details and explanations from Ellen White. Actually, what Ellen White says on this topic is completely supported by the Scriptures. If I wasn't persuaded of that, I'd throw her books out myself.

[Guest]

{GC88 37.2} was not part of my quote. Robert took the liberty of inserting it. I don't know why.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

In heaven Lucifer began to re-think God's agape love. ....

For 6000 years we have seen Lucifer's principle at work. Because God has allowed Lucifer to develop his type of love God assumes the blame for all the fallout produced from such love, that is, until the day of atonement when God places the blame where it belongs; On Satan...

Jack Sequiera?

You can just about bet on it. Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Nice imagination but no bingo. Would Satan & his spirit hosts be destoyed by such natural fire? I don't think so.

Dude...it says "fire"...."the lake of fire and sulfur"

The fire that destroys Satan and the wicked spirits is not the kind of fire that men make. Human-made fires-- even nuclear weapons--couldn't possibly destroy Satan. It is a supernatural fire that comes from God out of heaven. Ellen White says in one place that God "breaths" this fire on to the wicked. It combines with the fires that come out of the earth and that also come from the weapons that man has made. The same fire that destroys Satan and the wicked also cleanses the earth of all traces of sin and sinners.

I believe that sin itself changes God's creatures so that those who hold on to their sins can't survive in the presence of the full glory of God. I see it as something like God throwing open the doors of heaven and inviting everyone in. The ones who are destroyed are destroyed because their cherished sins have made them unable to live in the presence of a holy, sin-hating God.

[John317]

Then God murdered all the children and Infants in those cities...those who had not reached the age of accountability. And we get p'd off about abortion....Your view of God makes Him Mr. Abortion!

How do you understand the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua and Judges? Did God sometimes command the Hebrews to kill or not? When or if He did, was it immoral for them to kill? Were the prophets wrong? Did they misunderstand what God was saying?

[John317]

When you see your case as it stands before God, you will have different ideas in regard to your own defects of character than you now have. When views are presented that do not seem in harmony with your own, it should drive you to study your Bible, and investigate it to see if you yourself hold the right position on the subject. That another holds a different opinion, should not stir up the very worst traits of your nature. You should love your brother, and say, "I am willing to investigate your views. Let us come right to the word of God, and prove by the law and the testimony what is truth." {RH, August 27, 1889 par. 3}

Excellent quote.

May God help each of us put it into practice even tho' others might not.

[John317]

Question for the group - what "event" enables the saints to endure the sight of Christ at the 2nd coming?

Being sealed and receiving the Latter Rain. This does not happen to any who still have unconfessed, cherished sins in their lives or on the record books in heaven. All our sins will have been blotted out. (GC 425-427; 613,623)

When Christ returns in His full glory, those who have been sealed and are made ready to be translated will be glorified and made immortal. This is what causes them to be able to endure the sight of Christ at His second coming. Those who still have sin in their lives will flee from Christ and be destroyed by His brightness. GC 644, 645.

We can see, then, that it's not an arbitrary decision on God's part to save some and destroy others. People are destroyed by their choice not to surrender their lives completely to Christ and separate sin from themselves through the power that Christ gives us by His Spirit during this time of probation.

I think this is why it's so important to understand what Christ is doing in the heavenly sanctuary. Those who believe that Christ is still in the holy place, as he was before 1844, will not be prepared for the sealing and the Second Coming, because they will not see the importance of separating sin from themselves. They won't be able to grasp the necessity. (See "new duties", GC 425 par. 0; 427; 431, par. 0.)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

In heaven Lucifer began to re-think God's agape love. ....

For 6000 years we have seen Lucifer's principle at work. Because God has allowed Lucifer to develop his type of love God assumes the blame for all the fallout produced from such love, that is, until the day of atonement when God places the blame where it belongs; On Satan...

Jack Sequiera?

Nope, my words....Robert.

[John317]

Nope, my words....Robert.

I asked because some of the sentences and vocabulary are similar to Jack Sequeira's style, but that may come from your reading him so much.

Write a book sometime, Rob.

[Robert]

The ones who are destroyed are destroyed because their cherished sins have made them unable to live in the presence of a holy, sin-hating God.

Well, you are on your perfection trip once again. When all self-love and self-seeking are gone from your life, when you never think of self, but rather those around you...then you will survive.

Rob

[Robert]

I'll give you Jack. Now tell me if you disagree with the following:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Then God murdered all the children and Infants in those cities...those who had not reached the age of accountability. And we get p'd off about abortion....Your view of God makes Him Mr. Abortion!

Did God sometimes command the Hebrews to kill or not?

So you see nothing wrong with murdering infants? Then don't be against abortion....That's my point.....

[Robert]

Quote:

Deut 2:32 When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them--men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves.

Hmmm? How righteous....Instead of "love your enemies" it's kill 'm all...and take what is not yours. Murder and theft...Wow, how holy!

Rob

[Robert]

There are some disturbing situations found in the OT. What do we do with them? Do we actually believe this is God's will, or is God making a point?

For example, God gave the OC. Why? God knew they couldn't keep it....Again, because Israel didn't know. It took the OC to prove that mankind is bent-towards himself (even the good things he does) and his only hope was the righteousness of God by faith.

Now what about all this mayhem in the OT. I believe God was bringing out what was in them. What's that?

Rom 3:5 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

If, in my growth in grace, God commanded me to kill John and all his relatives, including the children, I would question that....Why? Because it doesn't fit God's character....But if I blindly said, "You bet...I'll start killing immediately" it would bring out into the open what's in my heart....

[John317]

Why do you think the war in heaven is physical? Why do you think this makes any sense?

If we look at Scripture along, whether it's physical or not has been debated for centuries. The concept of "The Great Controversy" suggests that it's not. If we throw in the SOP, we have this statement:

Quote:

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken.(DA 761)

How does this make any sense in a physical war?

I wouldn't refer to the war in heaven as "physical." The angels are not made of physical material, although they do have bodies. But their bodies are heavenly bodies, and we don't know exactly what that is, of course, because it hasn't been revealved to us.

Ellen White says the angels of God in the form of men sometimes defend God's people. And during the time of trouble faithful witnesses of God will be "defended by angels in the form of men of war" (GC 631).

I think the evidence shows that angels of God protect God's faithful people from the evil angels, and this protection means that the angels of God and those of Satan are engaged in some form of struggle that is more than a struggle of words and minds. We can't know what form this struggle takes, of course, because I doubt we would understand it even if God tried to tell us. The angels are in an entirely different dimension than humans are. Therefore, what they do in a "fight" or when "force" is used is incomprehensible to us.

Ellen White writes, "Could men see with heavenly vision, they would behold companies of angels that excel in strength stationed about those who have kept the word of Christ's patience" (GC 630). While the context of this comment has to do with things yet future, it is something that goes on today and has happened in the distant past as well. Ellen White has written that God is willing to "empty all heaven" of angels in order to help us resist temptations.

The war is real, and so is the victory.

[BobRyan]

How do you understand the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua and Judges? Did God sometimes command the Hebrews to kill or not? When or if He did, was it immoral for them to kill? Were the prophets wrong? Did they misunderstand what God was saying?

[karl]

I just want to bump these few sentences from your post above, Bob.

It is the glory of God to be merciful, full of forbearance, kindness, goodness, and truth. But the justice shown in punishing the sinner is as verily the glory of the Lord as is the manifestation of His mercy.

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law.

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor.

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice.

[karl]

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 THESS. 2:8.] Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

I think this quote highlights the trouble. Thanks for picking this one out and posting it, Gerry.

The wicked do themselves in. They are consumed by God's glory.

We can argue this 'til the cows come home, but the bottom line is that God is in charge of life. Some would like to have Him absolved of death, but the absence of life IS death. So, Whoever is in charge of life is defacto in charge of death.

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow.

[pnattmbtc]

J:No. I don't believe God would have forced Satan to stay here if Adam and Eve had passed the test.

p:Ok, so you're pretty much agreeing with what I've been saying. Satan had free reign to go anywhere,

J:Why do you believe my statement that "God would not have forced Satan to stay here if Adam and Eve had passed the test" signifies that "Satan had free reign to go anywhere"?

[pnattmbtc]

Here are some comments regarding "fire" by Ty Gibson, from "Shades of Grace" (emphasis original).

When Moses reminded Israel of when God gave them His holy law, he said of the Lord, „He shined ... from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people” (Deuteronomy 33:2, 3). “And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel” (Exodus 24:17). “For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire” (Deuteronomy 4:24). Paul made the same kind of parallel between God and fire: “Our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29).

We are not to conclude from such texts that God is composed in nature of literal fire. But rather, as Moses said, his glory is “like devouring fire . . . in the eyes” of human beings. God’s law is fiery; His glory is like a devouring fire; and His love is like an unquenchable fire. In what sense? In that the righteousness of God’s character of love stands in distinct contrast to our sinful selfishness.

The use of the words consuming and devouring indicate the reality that God’s righteous love not only exposes sin, it destroys it like darkness vanishes before the greater power of light. God’s love is wholly incompatible with sin. Whenever the two meet in close proximity, the lesser is consumed by the greater. With unrelenting passion, love devours all that is sinful an selfish. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire by virtue of who and what He is in character.

It is for this very reason that God has hidden Himself behind the subduing veil that is Christ. In Jesus we see the sunlight, as it were, without looking directly into the sun; we see the attractive beauty of God’s character in bearable splendor, without having to face the full brilliance of divine glory before we can survive it. As we come to know God in Christ, the heat of His glorious love slowly turned up to consume away our sin with merciful, healing gentleness. As we see Him more and more clearly, we see ourselves in ugly contrast with progressive clarity as well. With each sensitizing revelation we have the opportunity to dive deeper into the flame, to be “washed . . . by the spirit [the mental process[ of judgment [discernment] and by the spirit of burning” (Isaiah 4:4, NKJV). “The path of the just is like the shining sun, shat shines ever brighter unto the perfect day” (Proverbs 4:18, NKJV).” “’For He is like a refiner’s fire and like launderer’s soap’” (Malachi 3:2, NKJV).

Christianity is intended to be an ever-deepening journey into the heart of God, by which the beholding of His glory gradually transforms the believer into the same character likeness (2 Cor. 3:18). For those who persist in sin to the ruin of their inner capacity to discern and reflect God’s love, that fire of divine love which would have cleansed them will, on the day of final reckoning, ignite in their souls a destructive measure of shame and guilt. The glory of Him who is love will be more than the conscience can bear.

On the day of unveiled encounter, they will experience psychological and emotional meltdown in God’s immediate presence. “’For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.’ Says the Lord of hosts,’ That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name [love My character] the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings [in the rays of light that emanate from Him]’ “(Malachi 4:1, 2, NKJC). Everyone will eventually meet God in all the radiance of His glorious love. Some will be consumed, while others are healed by the very same encounter.

The love of which Solomon speaks—strong as death, relentless as the grave, and as unquenchable as the fire of God’s glory—was manifested in Christ. At Gethsemane and Calvary we behold God’s love put to the severest test and emerging from the fire victorious over the law of sin and death. In a word, the sufferings of Jesus consisted of a raw encounter with reality. He entered into the uncharted realm of total truth, both about God and about fallen mankind. He experienced perfect consciousness of God’s holy love in contrast to our sinful selfishness.

In His mind and heart He faced, with painful acuity, the full reality of human wickedness being consumed by the holiness of God. When the two realities reached their zenith point in His consciousness, they clashed for the mastery, and God’s love was victorious. He chose to resist “the law of sin and death” and to keep tight hold of the principle of selfless love. Sinful humanity died in the death of Christ and an entirely new humanity emerged triumphant over sin an drenched in the blood of relentless love.

[pnattmbtc]

Agreed that it is not appropriate to add anything. But when God clearly says that He executes judgment, it is inadequate to contradict what He says with "the wages of sin is death." While the statement is true, it does not contradict Deuteronomy 32:39. "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill , and I make alive ; I wound , and I heal : neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

The Lord will not be trifled with. Those who neglect His mercies and blessings in this day of opportunities will bring impenetrable darkness upon themselves and will be candidates for the wrath of God. Sodom and Gomorrah were visited with the curse of the Almighty for their sins and iniquities. There are those in our day who have equally abused the mercies of God and slighted His warnings. It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for those who bear the name of Christ, yet dishonor Him by their unconsecrated lives. This class are laying up for themselves a fearful retribution when God in His wrath shall visit them with His judgments.