"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[oldsailor29]

One observation - it is obvious that not all angels were created equal. at least one third were below average.

[BobRyan]

The question being discussed is God's fairness in punishing the Israelites for the sins of their fathers. It's not a discussion of whether God will judge them fairly at the final Judgment of the Great White Throne. God is assuring them that He is fair and won't punish or judge them for the sins of others but only punish them for their own sins. The same point is made in Ezekiel 3: 16-21; 33: 12-20 and Deut. 30: 15-20.

.... I've given you analysis of the chapter itself as well as the SDA Bible Commentary to show that Ezekiel 18 is referring primarily to the first death. All commentaries-- SDA as well as non-SDA-- agree.

It is agreed that Ezekiel was writing to contemporaries and was warning them of God's local judgments.

But like Isaiah 8 and 9 having local application - as well as global Gospel level application to the Messiah -- (or like the condemnation of the King of Tyre) - the full meaning is not realized until you get to the big picture.

Thus in Ezek 18 - no Righteous die. And in Ezek 18 ALL the wicked die - individual by individual.

Yet in real life - it was never true of God's local judgments on Israel (brought about in the form of battle) that "All the wicked died" or that "no righteous died".

The only context where all the details of Ezek 18 hold up - is the 2nd death.

As for inherited guilt -- see Matt 23 - Christ said "THAT upon you may fall all the guilt from ..." and then we see the chain of guilt.

Christ argues that the later generation that commits sin KNOWING the examples of the prior generation -- inherits condemnation at the higher level. At the accumulated level.

in Christ,

Bob

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

However a minor correction in the point above. God did not send Satan to this earth. Satan was cast out of heaven - and had no earth to go to at all. But he was given the ability to access ALL inhabited planets at the point of their tree of knowledge of good and evil.

How do you know that?

[BobRyan]

The war of ideas IS the war in heaven. It's not a war that can be won by force. To think it could be is to misunderstand the character of the war.

God didn't force Satan to come to earth. The evidence in both Scripture and the SOP is that Satan was able to meet the angles in heaven and present his arguments.

As already pointed out - War in heaven was real as Rev 12 states and Satan was in fact cast out - after "they fought" just as the Bible says.

As was pointed out here it was "strength against strength" and might against might between God the Son as commander of the loyal Angels and Lucifer (back on page 37)

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post328757

The war that was simple the “Conflict of ideas” had a result. 1/3 of the angels DECIDED to follow Lucifer.

THEN came “War in heaven” (as that link shows us) and the result of that NEXT stage was that the rebellious angels were "cast out of heaven" as the Bible says and as the text at that link shows.

Wishful thinking does not eliminate the details that point to the contrary.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

but for me i have to stick with the plain meaning. the plain meaning for me is that if they did not repent, regardless of whether they would die sooner or later, and there were many martyrs, they would die an eternal death from which there would be no resurrection, and i believe that was the point God was trying to so desperately get across to them.

OK, you believe it, and that is a fine opinion, but can you show from chapter 18 or any other part of Ezekiel clear evidence that the people were concerned with the judgment that will occur after the resurrection?

Where is the plain reference to the final judgment in the context of Ez. 18: 4?

If this was God's point that He was "trying so desperately to get across to them," as you say, why didn't He say it with clarity? If you think it does clearly refer to the final judgment, please show the text that you believe does it.

John the details in that chapter do not fit any battle that happened to Israel from either Babylon or Assyria.

There was never a filtering in battle between individuals who were righteous vs those whose parents were righteous but the children were wicked.

The details only fit the 2nd death. We find the same thing with the King of Tyre - having details that only fit Lucifer if you want all the details to apply.

As for God not telling Israel about the 2nd death - you need to think about that one for a minute. Was temporal blessing and prosperity more of a focus for God than the eternal life of the church in the OT?

Recall that almost every prophecy about the Messiah in the OT had some kind of local application as well -- but was God really trying to lead his church in the OT away from viewing the Gospel and the Messiah as the real focus?

Notice that the list of OT saints given in Heb 11 all seem to have the right "heavenly focus".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

As pointed out before, "expelled," always has to do with being forced or compelled to leave.

This is not correct, which was pointed out. For example, a person can be expelled from school because rules were broken, which often happens, but rarely is force involved.

"Expel" means "to cause to leave." Force is not the only thing that causes people to leave a location.

The examples you provide above are great examples that are NOT using terms like "WAR in heaven" or "FOUGHT against the dragon and his angels".

They are examples of NOT even remotely fitting the terms about "Strength against strength" that we find here -

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post328757

So while it is good imagination on your part to think of things like "expelled from school" we do not find "angels expelled from the School of heaven" -- we find terms like "war" and "cast out" and "fought" and "measuring strength against strength" that is done AFTER the war of ideas is fought.

That link above turns out to be very instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

However a minor correction in the point above. God did not send Satan to this earth. Satan was cast out of heaven - and had no earth to go to at all. But he was given the ability to access ALL inhabited planets at the point of their tree of knowledge of good and evil.

How do you know that?

All those little details come from inspired texts in this case.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

you left out important parts. parts that i had overlooked for years, given my "indoctrination" on this.

Have you studied everything Ellen White says about the Great White Throne Judgment and the final destruction of the wicked? Virtually everything she wrote about it is in the volume of her exhaustive comments on the book of Revelation. There you will see statements that make it utterly impossible for God to allow all the wicked to destroy one another.

good point.

For example a number of those references from Ellen White where it is impossible to edit the text to mean "the wicked burn themselves up" is given here -

Lake of Fire "details"

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post328786

And even before that Lake of Fire - we have

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post328785

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

All those little details come from inspired texts in this case.

I couldn't find anything like that in my search.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus said that people would be punished according to what they deserve, didn't He?

What good does punishment do? If you send your kid to his room for time out most likely he has learned something, but to destroy someone has no redemptive purpose....

Your view of this is far too narrow.

God's view takes in the entire universe - and all of time.

Before you summ up by claiming that in the light of eternity there is no value in the way God executes the wicked in torment and flames of Rev 14:10 - you may want to reconsider that God sees a bigger picture.

However I will quickly admit to this point -- the wicked that "are mere dust" just prior to the 2nd resurrection are not one wit "better informed dust" for having sufferred the Great White throne Judgment and then the Lake of Fire.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

After Satan was thrust from heaven, he determined to set up his kingdom on this earth. {CTr 19}

This interesting sentence causes me to think it's possible I am wrong about Satan's immediately coming to this earth after he was driven out of heaven. I will have to study this aspect some more, both from the Bible and the SOP.

Just this sentence alone could mean that God made Satan come here and then it was only after he found himself on earth that he determined to set up his kingdom here.

Or it could be that Satan was free to go anywhere after He was driven out of heaven, and that he did go elsewhere for a time,but then eventually came here when he saw that God was creating a new and unique creature.

Actually - Ellen White is clear on this point - Satan was free to roam about but only had access to each planet at the point of the Tree of knowledge.

However God immediately executes the plan to create Earth after Satan's rebellion - and Satan immediately sets his sights on earth.

Clearly - being the NEWEST kids on the block - Adam and Eve were viewed as the easiest targets to fall.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

If not then it wasn't war as we know it....It was rebellion, but not with violence. It was a war of ideology, agape vs. self-seeking.

Yes, this is the point.

to the contrary -- "strength against strength"

{SR 18.2}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before.

White, E. G. (1947; 2002). The Story of Redemption (18). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Many of Lucifer's sympathizers were inclined to heed the counsel of the loyal angels and repent of their dissatisfaction and be again received to the confidence of the Father and His dear Son. The mighty revolter then declared that he was acquainted with God's law, and if he should submit to servile obedience, his honor would be taken from him. No more would he be intrusted with his exalted mission. He told them that himself and they also had now gone too far to go back, and he would brave the consequences, for to bow in servile worship to the Son of God he never would; that God would not forgive, and now they must assert their liberty and gain by force the position and authority which was not willingly accorded to them. --PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, P. 40.] {SR 16.2}

The loyal angels hastened speedily to the Son of God and acquainted Him with what was taking place among the angels. They found the Father in conference with His beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this archdeceiver from heaven; but this was not His purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with His own Son and His loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side and be manifested to all. It would not have been safe to suffer any who united with Satan in his rebellion to continue to occupy heaven. They had learned the lesson of genuine rebellion against the unchangeable law of God, and this is incurable. If God had exercised His power to punish this chief rebel, disaffected angels would not have been manifested; hence, God took another course, for He would manifest distinctly to all the heavenly host His justice and His judgment. {SR 17.1}

All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father, to have each case determined. Satan unblushingly made known his dissatisfaction that Christ should be preferred before him. He stood up proudly and urged that he should be equal with God, and should be taken into conference with the Father and understand His purposes. God informed Satan that to His Son alone He would reveal His secret purposes, and He required all the family in heaven, even Satan, to yield Him implicit, unquestioned obedience; but that he had proved himself unworthy a place in heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in heaven? He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to [color:#CC0000]defend his place in heaven by force and might, strength against strength.--1SP 22. {TA 43.1}

To the very close of the controversy in heaven, the great usurper continued to justify himself. When it was announced that with all his sympathizers he must be expelled from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law. He reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. {TA 43.2}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven.{SR 19.1}

That not-so-subtle detail is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

[teresaq]

Wishful thinking does not eliminate the details that point to the contrary.

He who is guilty of wrong is the first to suspect wrong. By condemning another he is trying to conceal or excuse the evil of his own heart. It was through sin that men gained the knowledge of evil; no sooner had the first pair sinned than they began to accuse each other; and this is what human nature will inevitably do when uncontrolled by the grace of Christ. {MB 126.1}

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

The question being discussed is God's fairness in punishing the Israelites for the sins of their fathers. It's not a discussion of whether God will judge them fairly at the final Judgment of the Great White Throne. God is assuring them that He is fair and won't punish or judge them for the sins of others but only punish them for their own sins. The same point is made in Ezekiel 3: 16-21; 33: 12-20 and Deut. 30: 15-20.

.... I've given you analysis of the chapter itself as well as the SDA Bible Commentary to show that Ezekiel 18 is referring primarily to the first death. All commentaries-- SDA as well as non-SDA-- agree.

It is agreed that Ezekiel was writing to contemporaries and was warning them of God's local judgments.

But like Isaiah 8 and 9 having local application - as well as global Gospel level application to the Messiah -- (or like the condemnation of the King of Tyre) - the full meaning is not realized until you get to the big picture.

Thus in Ezek 18 - no Righteous die. And in Ezek 18 ALL the wicked die - individual by individual.

Yet in real life - it was never true of God's local judgments on Israel (brought about in the form of battle) that "All the wicked died" or that "no righteous died".

The only context where all the details of Ezek 18 hold up - is the 2nd death.

agreed.

[BobRyan]

[He who is guilty of wrong is the first to suspect ...

And then of course -- there is always the actual title of the thread to be commented upon - for those who may be interested in the actual subject of the thread.

in Christ,

Bob

[pnattmbtc]

However a minor correction in the point above. God did not send Satan to this earth. Satan was cast out of heaven - and had no earth to go to at all. But he was given the ability to access ALL inhabited planets at the point of their tree of knowledge of good and evil.

( I am sure we agree on this point -- but just thought I would mention it)

I'm not sure we do. I made this point to John317 several times, but he didn't acknowledge it, as far as I could see, but continued to assert that Satan was forced to earth.

[Guest]

God declared that the rebellious should remain in Heaven no longer. {1SP 22}

[John317]

So in the case of Satan and the fallen angels. I don't think anyone has meant to say that Satan was literally beat into submission and then picked up phyiscally and sent hurtling through space. No, the idea of being "thrown out" or "cast out" is simply that Satan was told that He couldn't stay in heaven and had to leave. That is exactly what it means to be "expelled," which is the word Ellen White uses.

Quote:

RICHARD HOLBROOK: John are you compromising with the serpent? She also said that Satan was determined to stay, and that he was thrust out of heaven. Does that sound like he was asked to leave? The Bible calls it war. I think that would be the wrong word for just asking someone to leave. And what about this?

He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to defend his place in Heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {1SP 22}

That doesn't sound like he was willing to go peacefully. Sounds like he probably got maced, or worse.

I think we're in general agreement. My primary point was to emphasize that "expelled" doesn't require the use of violent force.

But I'm convinced the war in heaven was much more than simply exchanges or debates about ideas. To what extent there was a human-like war in which people are pitted against one another with weaspons, or attacking one another in a personal contest of physical strength, we simply can't know because it hasn't been revealed. But I think that the language of Ellen White, and, to a lesser degree, the Bible also, clearly shows that Satan attempted to use "force," and not merely persuasion or lies.

As has been pointed out several times,Ellen White specifically says that in order to retain his "rightful place" in heaven, Satan proclaimed that he would use "force of might, strength against strength." How this can be understood to be strictly referring to debates or discussions regarding ideas, I can't understand.

The Bible, too, contains language indicating that the holy angels of God are sometimes met by some kind of force used by the evil angels and which requires God to send reinforcements to help His angels accomplish their missions. See, for instance, Daniel 9: 12, 13.

I've also seen Ellen White statements to the effect that "holy angels excel in strength." Of course that includes spiritual strength, but could it refer to something more than powers of persuasion? I think it's highly likely. "Force" connotes a power beyond the use of logic and words. In any case, it will be interesting to learn in heaven from both Jesus and His angels exactly what kind of "force" Satan used in his "war" against the loyal angels.

I think that the following quotes from the Spirit of prophecy are overwhelming evidence that the war in heaven was a war of more than ideas:

Quote:

Many of Lucifer's sympathizers were inclined to heed the counsel of the loyal angels and repent of their dissatisfaction and be again received to the confidence of the Father and His dear Son. The mighty revolter then declared that he was acquainted with God's law, and if he should submit to servile obedience, his honor would be taken from him. No more would he be intrusted with his exalted mission. He told them that himself and they also had now gone too far to go back, and he would brave the consequences, for to bow in servile worship to the Son of God he never would; that God would not forgive, and now they must assert their liberty and gain by force the position and authority which was not willingly accorded to them. --PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, P. 40.] {SR 16.2}

NOTE: There are other quotes from Ellen White in GC 499-504 which show that God could not immediately destroy Satan because the angels would have served God from fear and not understood the issues of the great controversy. But after Satan has proved his true character, all the universe can see the justice and rightness of God's judgment against Satan and all who follow him. Ellen White says "the utter extermination of sin" "now vindicates God's love and establishes His honor before the whole universe." It wouldn't have before, but it does after Satan is completely unmasked and everyone knows what he really represents.

Quote:

The loyal angels hastened speedily to the Son of God and acquainted Him with what was taking place among the angels. They found the Father in conference with His beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this archdeceiver from heaven; but this was not His purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with His own Son and His loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side and be manifested to all. It would not have been safe to suffer any who united with Satan in his rebellion to continue to occupy heaven. They had learned the lesson of genuine rebellion against the unchangeable law of God, and this is incurable. If God had exercised His power to punish this chief rebel, disaffected angels would not have been manifested; hence, God took another course, for He would manifest distinctly to all the heavenly host His justice and His judgment. {SR 17.1}

All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father, to have each case determined. Satan unblushingly made known his dissatisfaction that Christ should be preferred before him. He stood up proudly and urged that he should be equal with God, and should be taken into conference with the Father and understand His purposes. God informed Satan that to His Son alone He would reveal His secret purposes, and He required all the family in heaven, even Satan, to yield Him implicit, unquestioned obedience; but that he had proved himself unworthy a place in heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in heaven? He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to defend his place in heaven by force and might, strength against strength.--1SP 22. {TA 43.1}

[pnattmbtc]

As already pointed out - War in heaven was real as Rev 12 states and Satan was in fact cast out - after "they fought" just as the Bible says.

[Guest]

Quote:

"Wishful thinking does not eliminate the details that point to the contrary." (Why say this?)

Because it's true?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Bob

As already pointed out - War in heaven was real as Rev 12 states and Satan was in fact cast out - after "they fought" just as the Bible says.

Yes, the war was real, and "they fought," just as the Bible says, but the war was not and is not one which is decided by physical force.

Please see the 1SP 22 and SR 16-19 so recently posted here and respond to the "details" that apprently totally refute your statement above.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Bob

Quote:

As was pointed out here it was "strength against strength" and might against might between God the Son as commander of the loyal Angels and Lucifer (back on page 37)

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post328757

The war that was simple the “Conflict of ideas” had a result. 1/3 of the angels DECIDED to follow Lucifer.

THEN came “War in heaven” (as that link shows us) and the result of that NEXT stage was that the rebellious angels were "cast out of heaven" as the Bible says and as the text at that link shows.

Wishful thinking does not eliminate the details that point to the contrary.

It has also been pointed out that EGW wrote, in regards to Rev. 12:10, the following:

This is the very verse we're talking about. Satan was "cast down" as described here. Since the war is one of ideas and influence, Satan's casting down makes sense as the SOP, it turns out, described it.

You are conflating two seperate points while ignoring each of the inconvenient details found in SR 16-19 and 1SP22 that so explicitly address the topic and refute your argument. You also missing another detail about how the war in heaven with all of its force and violence is a perfect example of God NOT using His own infinite power to solve a problem.

First the conflation --

The Rev 12 text (as in the case of 2Peter 3) takes the war in heaven BEFORE Eden and the events that took place AFTER the death of Christ (where Satan is then charged as a murderer) and combines them.

Clearly the physical war in heaven was over long before the death of Christ - and no one is arguing that at Christ's death another war was fought.

Your argument above is to point out that at the death of Christ - there is no physical violence - no "might against might" war in heaven itself.

A point everyone agrees with. (I think you also know this is true.)

What you have ignored is the fact that we are very clearly told about the physical war that took place in heaven prior to creation of this world.

Thus your argument is not really getting off the ground.

Second the "Power of God" issue.

Again in the inspired quotes you are ignoring.

The statements quoted explicitly state how God's allowing for force against force and strength against strength - is an example of His NOT simply zapping out the bad guys with His own power.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Easy on the conflating there pnat. You're trying to meld apples and oranges together.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Bob

However a minor correction in the point above. God did not send Satan to this earth. Satan was cast out of heaven - and had no earth to go to at all. But he was given the ability to access ALL inhabited planets at the point of their tree of knowledge of good and evil.

( I am sure we agree on this point -- but just thought I would mention it)

I'm not sure we do. I made this point to John317 several times, but he didn't acknowledge it, as far as I could see, but continued to assert that Satan was forced to earth.

Not quite true there. I know that no one can see all the posts, so it is completely understandable for people to overlook some posts.

Yesterday I posted a reply to something that Richard Holbrook wrote, and I remarked at the time that it could be that Satan went elsewhere before coming to this earth.

I believe that the Bible evidence shows that at some point God did throw him and the other evil angels to this earth. That means God eventually made them come to this world. The evidence is found in Rev. 12: 4, 9; 2 Peter 2: 4 and Jude 6. All of these verses refer to the fallen angels being forced to come to the earth. There could have been-- and most likely was-- an indeterminate amount of time between leaving heaven and coming to this earth. It's reasonable that God would have done this after they had had time to visit the other planets and attempt unsuccessfully to get them to join his rebellion.

Some Bible scholars have suggested that Satan and his angels were thrown to this earth while it was still in a state of chaos, that is, in the conditon as seen in Gen. 1: 1, when it was "formless and desolate," prior to the first day of creation. This condition would seem to agree with the descriptions of the kind of place where they were "hurled" or "cast." 2 Peter says they were "cast to Tartarus," or hell, and "committed to pits of darkeness," or "dark dungeons" or "chains of darkness" to "be kept under guard for judgment." Jude 6 speaks of their having been reserved or kept "bound beneath the thick gloom," or the "darkness" "until the judgment of the great day." Let's also not forget that Rev. 12 says at least 4 times that they were cast out of heaven to the earth. So for me it's not a question of whether they were cast to this earth but rather of when they were cast down to it. I don't know the answer.

John Milton writes in his great epic, Paradise Lost (Book VI), about the war in heaven, and he has Satan and his angels thrown down to "hell," a place of punishment. (In the poem, the fallen angels throw themselves down after being forced out of heaven by Christ and His angels.) It's very similar in description to the way Gensis 1 portrays the abyss that was the earth. Milton's long poem goes into great detail about the war, and the story he tells of the temptation and fall of Adam is very similar to the way Ellen White speaks of it. We know that she read it, but she said she didn't read it until after she wrote about the temptation. It was among the books in her library. It might be at the Loma Linda Heritage Room. I'd like to see if she wrote any notes in it or underlined anything.

... The overthrown he rais'd, and as a Heard

Of Goats or timerous flock together throngd

Drove them before him Thunder-struck, pursu'd

With terrors and with furies to the bounds

And Chrysall wall of Heav'n, which op'ning wide,

Rowld inward, and a spacious Gap disclos'd

Into the wastful Deep; the monstrous sight

strook them with horror backward, but far worse

Urg'd them behind; headlong themselves they threw

Down from the verge of Heav'n, Eternal wrauth

Burnt after them to the bottomless pit.

Hell heard th' unsufferable noise, Hell saw

Heav'n ruining from Heav'n, and would have fled

Affrighted; but strict Fate had cast too deep

Her dark foundations, and too fast had bound.

Nine days they fell; confounded Chaos roard,

And felt tenfold confusion in thir fall

Through his wilde Anarchie, so huge a rout

Incumbered him with ruin: Hell at last

Yawning receaved them whole, and on them clos'd...

(All "typos" in the above are strictly intentional.)

[John317]

God declared that the rebellious should remain in Heaven no longer. {1SP 22}

Yes, and this was BEFORE the war.

She also says somewhere that God "decreed they were banished." I can't see how these expressions could leave anyone with the idea that God allowed them a choice to stay at that time. The time for choosing to repent was long since over by the time the war took place.

She writes somewhere, too, that God bore patiently with Satan for a very long time. It sounds like it could have been hundreds if not thousands of years by earth-time.

I wonder if Satan ever wishes he'd changed his mind.