Woody Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Quote: "Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." EGW EW p. 294 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2010 Moderators Posted February 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 Ellen White says it is after the righteous together with Jesus study the lives of the wicked and determine how much punishment their works deserve. Jesus renders to everyone according to his deeds. He personally pronounces the sentence. Not everyone suffers the same. Some die "as in a moment;" other suffer long; and Satan, the last one to perish, suffers many days after all others have been completely burned up. Baloney! This is not within the character of God....He is not in the business of torture. For folks to believe so means they need a doctor.... You may not believe this, but does Ellen White say this or not? Look at GC 673. Remember that Ellen White finished the last edition of GC in 1911. This represents what she believed right up to the last years of her life. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2010 Moderators Posted February 2, 2010 Quote: "Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." EGW EW p. 294 Yes, that's it. Do you believe it? I certainly do. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Christ rewards everyone according to their deeds done in the body, and that includes the wicked. Quote
teresaq Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 The quote is worth repeating: "Had he [satan] been IMMEDIATELY blotted from existence, they [the inhabitants of heaven and other worlds] would have served God from fear rather than from love... Evil must be permitted to come to maturity... The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE HIS LOVE and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight do do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest." GC 499, 504 Question: When does "NOW" refer to? Answer: it refers to the time after Satan's character has been proved and after the Great White Throne Judgment, when the wicked are finally consumed by fire that comes down from God out of heaven. That is when Satan will be blotted from existence. As Ellen White says, THIS WILL NOW VINDICATE GOD'S LOVE AND ESTABLISH HIS HONOR BEFORE THE UNIVERSE. DA 764 tells us that had God "left" Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished, but this would have been misunderstood, as it was not at this point understood that death is "the inevitable power of sin." GC 543 tells us the exclusion from heaven of the lost is voluntary with themselves. DA 749 tells us that compelling power is found only under Satan's government. Then there's the life of Jesus Christ. We can see, in brilliant fashion, the true character of God simply by seeing how Jesus Christ lived and treated those with whom He came in contact, including those who desired him harm. The "NOW" refers to the time when God can allow Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin without being misunderstood. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Robert Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 You may not believe this, but does Ellen White say this or not? Who? “When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. “ [AY 63, 1860] “Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong….Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness….” [bible Echo and Signs of the Times, 02-01-1892] Oh, you mean the woman who changed her mind on things....No, I can't base my understanding on a woman who changed her position....Sorry, you can...not me... Quote
Robert Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Yes, that's it. Do you believe it? I certainly do. No! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2010 Moderators Posted February 2, 2010 JOHN317: You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. Quote: So John, am I a liar? Do you believe what Ellen White says on GC 294? I understood you to say before that you do not believe that God will punish some more than others and that some will suffer longer than others. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Yes, that's it. Do you believe it? I certainly do. No! This goes back to Mark's discussion of the heart and mind. If there is a small piece of the little toe that remains ... is there still a sense of suffering. Can the little toe feel pain absent of the mind? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 I understood you to say before that you do not believe that God will punish some more than others and that some will suffer longer than others. You didn't answer my question. Am I a liar? Yes...no? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2010 Moderators Posted February 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Yes, that's it. Do you believe it? I certainly do. No! OK, that's fine, Rob. I'm just trying to understand where you are in your thinking about these things. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 If there is a small piece of the little toe that remains ... is there still a sense of suffering. Can the little toe feel pain absent of the mind? Absolutely not! IF somehow God supernaturally made this happen He would be a sadist....He would make Hitler look like a choirboy. I would never...never...never give such a god the time of day. I would rather suffer, not many days, but for eternity rather than believe a God of agape would torture his sinful children who turned their backs on Him.....If you believe opposite then it all boils down to this: I am God....I love you so much that on the cross I was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that you who hate me could have my place in heaven....but, if you don't love me back I'll torture your butt...I will make you pay....Don't take this wrong, it's nothing personal... I really love you, you need to pay.... Quote
Robert Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 OK, that's fine, Rob. I'm just trying to understand where you are in your thinking about these things. I'm Bible based...especially from the view of the cross. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Quote: ellen white appears to make it quite clear that God has been protecting the lost, as well as the righteous, from satan. are you disagreeing with that? It's true God stops protecting the wicked from Satan after human probation ends and the seven last plagues begin to be poured out by the seven angels who are told, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth." Rev. 16: 1. Which they do by ceasing to hold the winds of strife, and ceasing their protective watch against the thousand dangers they protect us from, all of them unseen. There seems to be an underlying idea that God and His angels do nothing to protect us, and that the withdrawal of God's protection is not sufficient to result in the destruction described in inspiration, but that's not the case. "Satan is the destroyer. The Lord is the restorer." "Compelling power is to be found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order." The same is true in regards to violence. Simply considering the life of Christ should make clear what God's attitude is in regards to violence. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2010 Moderators Posted February 2, 2010 we just have to study everything related to get a balanced picture. we cant stop at only a superficial meaning, what we see on the paper. What does Ellen White say on GC 294? After studying everything related to it, what is your balanced picture? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2010 Moderators Posted February 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 OK, that's fine, Rob. I'm just trying to understand where you are in your thinking about these things. I'm Bible based...especially from the view of the cross. The Bible also teaches that not all the wicked will suffer the same. The lost as well as the saved will be rewarded for their deeds. Jesus also said that some will be punished more than others in the judgment. What Ellen White says, then, is supported by Scripture. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
karl Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 I understood you to say before that you do not believe that God will punish some more than others and that some will suffer longer than others. You didn't answer my question. Am I a liar? Yes...no? I used to talk about Santa Claus with the full belief that he existed. Was I a liar? Or just misinformed? A liar is someone who knows the truth, but says something else. As I was pointing out to pnattmbtc, we just don't know the why, the what, or the how of endtime punishment. There may be a very good reason why EGW said that the more heinous sinners suffer longer. It may not have anything to do with deliberately making them miserable. It may have more to do with the needs of their victims or it may actually have something to do with the quantity and quality (if I can use that term) of the sin that needs to be purified by "fire." We don't even know how these things are measured in heaven's scales. ("19.37 Globleeds of sin in this one, requiring 73ms of purification. Sister White, could you please set the Fryatomium dial to the proper oscillatory fragmentation commensurate with this level of guilt?" Just because we cannot imagine God doing what He says He will do, doesn't mean He cannot or will not do just what He says. I'm sure we will all agree with His decisions and methods when the time comes. In the meantime, this topic is obviously too big a burden for some to bear, so I think they ought to leave it with Him. He's strong. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2010 Moderators Posted February 2, 2010 Quote: JOHN3:17--You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. Quote: ROBERT: So John, am I a liar? Did I say anywhere that you lied? No. If you believe I did, show me, and if I did, I will delete it and apologize. I said that he cannot believe your view of the destruction of the wicked and also believe what the Bible and Ellen White say. You've said you don't believe what Ellen White taught on GC 294. I don't believe she contradicts the Bible. If I believed she did, I wouldn't accept what she says. If you sincerely and honestly believe after studying her and the Bible, that Ellen White contradicts the Bible, it's best to accept the Bible, of course. I haven't seen her do that, but if I ever do, I'll easily choose the Bible. It's no contest. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Jesus also said that some will be punished more than others in the judgment. What Ellen White says, then, is supported by Scripture. No He doesn't.... For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Nothing about torture....If you have Christ His righteousness will cover you....IF you don't, you'll receive the 2nd death. Christ came to deliver us from the 2nd death, not torture.... Rob Quote
pnattmbtc Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 p:The "NOW" refers to the time when God can allow Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin without being misunderstood. J:Sure. And how do they reap the full result of their sin? Ellen White says it is after the righteous together with Jesus study the lives of the wicked and determine how much punishment their works deserve. Jesus renders to everyone according to his deeds. He personally pronounces the sentence. Not everyone suffers the same. Some die "as in a moment;" other suffer long; and Satan, the last one to perish, suffers many days after all others have been completely burned up. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Moderators John317 Posted February 2, 2010 Moderators Posted February 2, 2010 Quote: JOHN3:17: You may not believe this, but does Ellen White say this or not? Quote: ROBERT: Who? I mean the woman you quote when you have a point you want to prove with Seventh-day Adventists. Quote: Robert's quote: When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. “ [AY 63, 1860] Yes, this was in a private letter to her children who had to be separated for long periods from their traveling parents. The ones taking care of them had tried everything they knew to get the boys to behave but to no avail. And Ellen White, as a young mother, had also tried everything she knew. So she was about at her wit's end to know what else she could say or do. So she wrote a letter and included the above sentence to her beloved little boys. She never said that this was a message from God or that it was what God showed her or inspired her to write. It was a personal, private letter such as any mother might write to their "problem children." In time she learned better how to deal with these situations. Quote: Robert's quote: Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong….Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness….” [bible Echo and Signs of the Times, 02-01-1892] Notice this was written 32 years after the previous quote. This was intended for publication; whereas, as pointed out, the first quote was never intended for anyone but her own children. It wasn't intended as a messge for the church. Quote: ROBERT: Oh, you mean the woman who changed her mind on things....No, I can't base my understanding on a woman who changed her position....Sorry, you can...not me... Yes, she changed her mind on things when she discovered she was in error. That's a good thing. Are you saying you don't think Moses or Paul or Peter or John ever changed his mind? There is probably not a single human being on earth who hasn't changed his mind. She changed her mind, yes-- and that is actually a mark in her favor, not a mark against her-- but you will notice that she didn't have to go back to earlier writings and change anything that she said God had shown her or that she had been inspired to write. Hasn't Jack Sequeira changed his mind? I certainly hope so. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
pnattmbtc Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. Who are you to make a pronouncement like this? Might John317 be wrong? Is that possible? One *can* believe a different view than yours and believe in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White at the same time. Many do precisely this. There's no point in statements like this. Better to simply make your point on how *you* interpret Scripture and the SOP and let it go at that. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Did I say anywhere that you lied? No. If you believe I did, show me, and if I did, I will delete it and apologize. "You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White." Since according to your view I am wrong and the Bible and EGW disagree with me, then I must be a liar....It's subtle, but it's there.... Quote
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