"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

Yes, this was in a private letter to her children....

So, it showed her mindset...her belief system...which was flawed.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained.

What do you (John317) think this means? That is, "as long as there was a portion." Does that mean like a foot or arm or something like that?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White.

Who are you to make a pronouncement like this? Might John317 be wrong? Is that possible?

One *can* believe a different view than yours and believe in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White at the same time. Many do precisely this.

There's no point in statements like this. Better to simply make your point on how *you* interpret Scripture and the SOP and let it go at that.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

p:The "NOW" refers to the time when God can allow Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin without being misunderstood.

J:Sure. And how do they reap the full result of their sin?

Ellen White says it is after the righteous together with Jesus study the lives of the wicked and determine how much punishment their works deserve. Jesus renders to everyone according to his deeds. He personally pronounces the sentence. Not everyone suffers the same. Some die "as in a moment;" other suffer long; and Satan, the last one to perish, suffers many days after all others have been completely burned up.

The righteous see how long the wicked will suffer. Their suffering is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God, but is the consequence of their own choice. This is DA 764. Suffering comes as a result of sin, not as the result of an act on the part of God to make them suffer. There's absolutely no need for God to do anything to make people suffer! Sin is entirely capable of doing this, and it would be entirely foreign to God's character to cause their suffering by an arbitrary act of power, such as setting them on fire. It's like when the disciples asked Jesus, "Should we call fire from heaven to devour them, like Elias did" and Jesus replied, "You know not of what spirit you are."

We have so many warnings from the SOP of how Satan seeks to misrepresent God's character, presenting him as harsh and severe, and tyrant-like. The following comes to mind:

Quote:

How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. (GC 535)

Yes, this is talking about eternal punishment, as opposed to the non-eternal view you are suggesting, but it's still punishment by setting people on fire, which she describes as "torture." We'd simply have a non-eternal torture as opposed to an eternal one. So are we to believe that God will torture the wicked as punishment for their misdeeds?

All of this supposes that sin is innocuous and has no power to cause pain or suffering on its own. Teresa quoted a number of statements which discuss how those who opposed Christ were powerless when divinity flashed through humanity. We see in Revelation that the wicked would rather have rocks fall on their heads then to look at their Redeemer.

And there's GC 542 to consider.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: John317

Did I say anywhere that you lied? No. If you believe I did, show me, and if I did, I will delete it and apologize.

"You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White."

Since according to your view I am wrong and the Bible and EGW disagree with me, then I must be a liar....It's subtle, but it's there....

There's a difference, as I pointed out before, between being a liar - who is a person deliberately trying to misinform - and being convinced of something which I believe to be incorrect. The latter would not make you a liar. It would make you someone who honestly disagrees with me. This is what you are, rather than a liar.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus also said that some will be punished more than others in the judgment. What Ellen White says, then, is supported by Scripture.

No He doesn't....

Not all the wicked deserve the same punishment. It would not be just to punish everyone the same, would it?

That is why Jesus says that He is coming with His reward to give to everyone according to what they have done. Rev. 22: 12.

If the destruction of the wicked is left up to the wicked-- that is, if the wicked are put in charge and decide who and how to kill the other people who are lost, as some believe-- you can be sure that many will suffer far more than others. Some would commit suicide and many others would be killed in very terrible ways. That would not be justice, and certainly not mercy.

Here is the testimony of Jesus, in Luke 12: 46-48: "The master of that servant [who's been unfaithful] will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready and does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

NOTE: The above text shows that there will be different degrees of punishment. Jesus is saying that in the judgment, degrees of future punishment will be proportionate to the knowledge sinned against.

God told Moses to tell the Hebrew people, "If the one who is guilty deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make them lie down and have them flogged in his presence with the number of lashes the crime deserves, but the judge must not impose more than forty lashes." Deut. 25: 2, 3.

The Bible contains a clear principle here. It's also one that is followed in all human societies and, not suprisingly, one that will be applied, too, in the punishment of the wicked. I'm sure everyone would oppose giving the same punishment to a 16 year old child as that given to an adult mass-murderer.

After the description of Satan's punishment coming to an end with his death, Ellen White makes the following interesting comment: "The full penalty of the law has been visited; THE DEMANDS OF JUSTICE HAVE BEEN MET; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah." GC 673.

It seems obvious to me that there's a close connection between the punishment of the wicked and the demands of justice, or the righteousness of God. God is not only love but He is holy and His holiness requires the punishment of sin and of the finally impentenant. Many people don't like to acknowledge this beause it seems to them like "anger" and "revenge," but the fact is that God is angry at sin and must take vengence on it and on those who ultimately decide to hold onto rebellion and sin. This is clearly taught in Scripture. God would not be a God of love if He didn't hate sin and be determined to destroy it. He wants to destroy only Satan and the evil angels, but if people persist in holding onto sin and following Satan, they too must perish, and yes, they too must be "punished." If there was no "punishment" involved in the death of the wicked, God could simply put them all to sleep with a single word or thought. But he does not do this. The Bible itself-- as well as the Spirit of prophecy-- frequently calls the death of the wicked a "punishment." "The unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment." See 2 Peter 2: 9; Jude 7.

God [actually, the pre-incarnate Christ] said repeatedly, "You must be holy, for I am holy." Holiness is seperation from sin. God can't live among an unholy people committed to their sins. They have to separate sin from themsselves. It is the main lesson we learn in the sanctuary services. It is also the primary lesson in the Third Angels Message as well as the 1888 Message. These messages about about how to prepare to live with a love and holy God and with the holy angels for all of eternity. No, God no sadist or masochist, contrary to what some think. "In the banishment of Satan from heaven"-- and Ellen White might have added, in the destruction of Satan and of all his followers-- God will declare His justice and maintain the honor of His throne. Does anyone think that God would destroy Satan and His followers if there was any other way to deal with the sin problem? I don't.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17--You can't believe Robert's view and at the same time believe what it says in either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Who are you to make a pronouncement like this?

Robert's stated view is that Ellen White is wrong in regard to the punishment of the wicked.

I am saying that one cannot believe as Robert believes and at the same time believe what Ellen White wrote on page 673 of The Great Controversy.

Anyone on this Forum may make such a pronouncement as the one I made. I said what I did because one cannot believe similtaneously that two opposing statements are equally true. One can't believe something is true and false, or hot and cold, at the same time. That was my point in posting what I did. I believe you may have misunderstood. I probably should have written more clearly.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Might John317 be wrong? Is that possible?

Yes, without question. I've often been wrong.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: One *can* believe a different view than yours and believe in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White at the same time. Many do precisely this.

Yes, of course. I am not saying they can't or don't. But that isn't what I said in my post. Please go back and re-read what I wrote on that post. If you compare your statement here with my statement as given in the original post in which it occurs, you will see that they don't signify the same thing. I'm addressing a particular view of Robert's.

I am talking about a specific subject and a specific teaching of Ellen White. It's a teaching the Bible clearly supports. That teaching is that there will be various degrees of punishment for those who are lost and destroyed. Not all will receive the same punishment,

The point I made in the post to Woody is that Robert does not believe in what Ellen White says. Robert has made this clear many times, and he has also made it clear that he doesn't believe in many other things in The Great Controversy as well as other books by the same writer.

Therefore, if someone says he believes what Robert said when he says he rejects what Ellen White taught, they cannot say at the same time that they accept or believe what Ellen White taught.

For example, if I say I believe Ellen White's statement that "some are destroyed [after the judgment] as in a moment, while others suffer many days," I cannot truthfully say in the same breath that I agree with someone who says they disagree with the statement. The same principle applies to the Bible.

Quote:

There's no point in statements like this. Better to simply make your point on how *you* interpret Scripture and the SOP and let it go at that.

I don't agree with you in regard to my statement, but I do understand what your opinion is, and you certainly have a right to it.

[Robert]

"The master of that servant [who's been unfaithful] will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready and does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

NOTE: The above text shows that there will be different degrees of punishment. Jesus is saying that in the judgment, degrees of future punishment will be proportionate to the knowledge sinned against.

Your opinion....

[Robert]

Not all will receive the same punishment

Sure they will - the 2nd, eternal death. Goodbye to life forever. Again, torture is not part of God's kingdom....It does nothing....

To even think God tortures the unrepentant sinner and then final kills him sounds like something the Mob would do....It is sick!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

"The master of that servant [who's been unfaithful] will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready and does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

NOTE: The above text shows that there will be different degrees of punishment. Jesus is saying that in the judgment, degrees of future punishment will be proportionate to the knowledge sinned against.

Your opinion....

What does Jesus say, and what do you believe He signifies in that passage?

[Robert]

What does Jesus say, and what do you believe He signifies in that passage?

I need to look at the other passages. When I do Matthew says, "The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is the same as being thrown "into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This is God abandonment, which brings the 2nd death....

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Not all will receive the same punishment

Sure they will - the 2nd, eternal death. Goodbye to life forever. Again, torture is not part of God's kingdom....It does nothing....

To even think God tortures the unrepentant sinner and then final kills him sounds like something the Mob would do....It is sick!

perhaps you would be interested in our pioneers thoughts, robert. here is the first one i came to:

Again, it is objected to my views, that "it is no punishment at all." "If," continues the objector, "the wicked are to be struck out of being, it is quick over, and that is the end of it." {1855 GS, SSII 79.2}

The man who can make such an objection as this, gives sad evidence that he is sinking below the brute creation, in his sensibilities; for a brute makes every effort to live, or protract its life as long as possible. Besides, he manifests that he has no clear conception of the value of life: he, in fact, tells his Maker that he does not thank Him for life. But does the objector really feel that what he says is true? Is it nothing to die - to be cut off from life - to perish "like a beast" - to lose that which may be filled up with unmeasured and unending enjoyment? Is all this nothing? Is it no punishment? If so, in the objector's mind, I repeat it, he is already too degraded in the scale of being to be expected ever to rise above a mere animal. His case is exceedingly hopeless. He may count himself a Christian, but I fear he is ignorant of the grand principle which characterizes such, viz: love to God.{1855 GS, SSII 79.3}

[pnattmbtc]

I am saying that one cannot believe as Robert believes and at the same time believe what Ellen White wrote on page 673 of The Great Controversy.

1.I didn't think what you said was not this specific. What I heard you say was that one could not believe as Robert believes and believe in the SOP and the Bible.

2.Even being specific, IMO there are better ways to put this. Here are a couple of examples:

a.In my opinion, one cannot believe what Ellen White wrote on page 673 of the Great Controversy and believe as you are stating.

b.I don't see how one cannot believe what Ellen White wrote on page 673 of the Great Controversy and believe as you are stating.

c.According to my reading of GC 673, what you're saying is incorrect.

Now if Robert himself says he disagrees with her, you can just cite his own words.

That the forum rules permit this isn't the issue.

[teresaq]

what is the standard we are given by God seems to me to be what we go by. i cant see setting up our standard of behavior as of any benefit to attaining to eternal life.

[John317]

Christ came to deliver us from the 2nd death, not torture....

I agree, He won't "torture" anyone when He destroys the wicked. Jesus said that when He comes, it will be to reward everyone according to the deeds they have done. As Jesus showed in His parable found in Luke 12: 46-48, some will be punished more than others. In other words, God will repay the wicked-- those who are finally impentanent-- according to what their sins deserve. That's not torture, is it? Torture is what people do to one another because of hatred, anger and a lack of love, and their "torture" has nothing to do with what people deserve. The context of the judgment and the fact that it is Christ who is the Judge prove without question that love, justice, righteousness and mercy are the basis of what occurs.

I think the most important and urgent question we have to ask and answer is, does the Bible mean what it says? Is it dependable and trustworthy?

Take, for instance, the message of the third angel in Rev. 14: 9-12. What does it say, and what does it signify? You will notice that it warns against doing certain things which, if people do, will result in their being "tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

The word which is translated "torment" is Strong's #928 and means "to be afflicted, tormented, or pained." Basanizo is a cognate, or related word, of basanismos, which occurs in Rev. 9: 5; 14: 11; 18: 7, 10, 15. Those are the only places where this word, Strong's #929, occurs in the entire NT.

Greek-English Lexicons define basanismos as "examination by torture; torment, torture." This is the word used in Rev. 14: 11 which, in reference to those who receive the mark of the beast, says that "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." Today's English Version reads, "The smoke of the fire that torments them goes up forever and ever."

While this word does not mean that God will "torture" the lost, it does show that they will be punished for their sins. When we put this together with the other verses in the Bible and with the passages from Ellen White, it is clear that there will be various degrees of punishment depending on how much knowledge of truth individuals had.

[Robert]

That's not torture, is it? Torture is what people do to one another because of hatred, anger and a lack of love.....

So as long as God doesn't hate me, cooking me for many days with fire is love?

[pnattmbtc]

I agree, He won't "torture" anyone when He destroys the wicked. Jesus said that when He comes, it will be to reward everyone according to the deeds they have done. As Jesus showed in His parable found in Luke 12: 46-48, some will be punished more than others. In other words, God will repay the wicked-- those who are finally impentanent-- according to what their sins deserve. That's not torture, is it? Torture is what people do to one another because of hatred, anger and a lack of love, and their "torture" has nothing to do with what people deserve. The context of the judgment and the fact that it is Christ who is the Judge prove without question that love, justice, righteousness and mercy are the basis of what occurs.

[BobRyan]

Since according to your view I am wrong and the Bible and EGW disagree with me, then I must be a liar...

I find your logic illusive just then.

So to correct your point above -- You are "wrong" - as in you are not correct in your reasoning, in your thinking, and by direct contrast - the Bible and Ellen White are examples of inspired writing which turns out to be right (rather than wrong).

What is not to "get"??

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus also said that some will be punished more than others (from Luke 12) in the judgment. What Ellen White says, then, is supported by Scripture.

No He doesn't....

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (from 2Cor 5)

You would have needed to actually quote Luke 12 if you wanted to refute John's use of that reference to those who KNEW God's will and then were sent to hell - receiving MANY stripes, much TORMENT - while those who did NOT know God's will and were found guilty and sent to hell - would receive FEW.

But instead you chose to quote 2Cor 5 about all (saints and sinners) standing before the judgment seat of Christ.

Is 2Cor 5 supposed to have "deleted Luke 12"??

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

i dont remember anywhere where the victim was not slain first before burning.

Try Rev 14:10-11 and Rev 20.

Luke 12 is also another good place to see that.

So also GC in the description of the lake of fire.

Turns out - they all agree.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Ezek 18 makes it clear that the righteous who turn from sin will NOT die --Bob

Old covenant, Bob...old covenant....Stop your darn love of self...your self-seeking...all selfishness...all pride...then you will live. If not, you will die!!!

Jesus quotes from Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 in Matt 22 describing the two commandments upon which all the Word of God rests.

James 2 quotes the same thing calling in th ROYAL LAW.

I guess that business of taking the scissors to the scriptures as you seem to suggest above - was not being practiced by the NT authors.

You may want to reconsider.

Hint: NO NT author calls the text of Ezekiel "Old Covenant" -- as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

i dont remember anywhere where the victim was not slain first before burning.

Try Rev 14:10-11 and Rev 20.

Luke 12 is also another good place to see that.

So also GC in the description of the lake of fire.

Turns out - they all agree.

Bob

really?!? thats interesting. they all agree that the sacrificial victim was burned alive in the levitical system?!? that is one strange bible you have! :0

[BobRyan]

I know Dr. Graham Maxwell very well and consider him a personal friend. I attended his Sabbath School classes a lot for about 10 years, and also interviewed him for Insight magazine. The last time I talked with him, he acknowledged that God brought the flood on the world just like the Bible says. I plan to ask him his views about the casting out of Satan from heaven.

Now there is a conversation I would love to hear.

Let me know if he has an answer other than to ignore the details in the text of GC and EW (and Rev 14:10 and Rev 20 and Matt 10 and...) describing the torment of the wicked in real fire - caused by God Himself.

in Christ,

Bob

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

I agree, He won't "torture" anyone when He destroys the wicked. Jesus said that when He comes, it will be to reward everyone according to the deeds they have done. As Jesus showed in His parable found in Luke 12: 46-48, some will be punished more than others. In other words, God will repay the wicked-- those who are finally impentanent-- according to what their sins deserve. That's not torture, is it? Torture is what people do to one another because of hatred, anger and a lack of love, and their "torture" has nothing to do with what people deserve. The context of the judgment and the fact that it is Christ who is the Judge prove without question that love, justice, righteousness and mercy are the basis of what occurs.

Definition of "torture" (Webster's):

Quote:

torture: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish

Quote:

What would be gained to God should we admit that he delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that he is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom he holds in the flames of hell?(GC 536)

Setting people on fire for the purpose of inflicting intense pain to punish them is "torture." Doing so for eternity is "unceasing torture." Doing so for many hours or many days would be "torture which ceases after many hours or many days."

They are to be punished according to their works. The Scriptures declare that they shall be rewarded according to their deeds. There are then to be degrees in the punishment of the wicked; and it may be asked how this can be harmonized with our view that death is the punishment for sin, and comes upon all alike. Let us ask the believers in eternal misery how they will maintain degrees in their system. They tell us the intensity of the pain endured will be in each case proportioned to the guilt of the sufferer.

That mental agony, that keen anguish which will rack their souls as they get a view of their incomparable loss, each according to his capacity of appreciation. The youth who had but little more than reached the years of accountability, and died perhaps with just enough guilt upon him to debar him from heaven, being less able to comprehend his situation and his loss, will of course feel it less. To him of older years, more capacity, and consequently a deeper experience in sin, the burden of his fate will be proportionately greater. While the man of giant intellect and almost boundless comprehension, who thereby possessed greater influence for evil, and hence was the more guilty for devoting his powers to that evil, being able to understand his situation fully, comprehend his fate, and realize his loss, will feel it most keenly of all. Into his soul indeed the iron will enter most intolerably deep. And thus, by an established law of mind, the sufferings of each may be most accurately adjusted to the magnitude of their guilt. {January 6, 1863 JWe, ARSH 44.15}

[BobRyan]

Clearly from the context and details - they had aLREADY had the "conflict of ideas" in which the final result was 1/3 with Satan and 2/3's with God the Son.

But in the statement above - you see the NEXT stage of conflict that came AFTER the battle of ideas had already split the camp into two opposing sides.