When did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

[Twilight]

There are two points to discuss here.

When did the disciples receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Spirit.

And is it salvational, the need to receive the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Mark :-)

[karl]

There are two points to discuss here.

When did the disciples receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Spirit.

And is it salvational, the need to receive the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Mark :-)

John 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is symbolized by the oil in the vessels of the wise virgins. This is why it could not be given by the wise to the foolish - the Holy Spirit must be invited into the heart. (How heartless and non-Christian would it be for the wise to not give something that COULD be shared to the foolish virgins?)

In other words, I believe the indwelling of the Spirit is essential to salvation.

[SivartM]

Didn't Jesus breathe on His disciples before He left and give them the Holy Spirit?

[wayfinder]

SivartM, yes He did, but it wasn't accompnied by all the hoopla and firewords of the day of Pentecost, therefore not as interesting.

John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Even today, shock and awe have a greater impact then a still small voice. Acts 2 has totally overwhelmed John 20.

[karl]

Didn't Jesus breathe on His disciples before He left and give them the Holy Spirit?

There is a bit of dispute due to this in Acts chapter 1:

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

[Twilight]

Karl, I would like to say your spot on about the oil in the vessels.

That can be shown from scripture, quite easily.

But did you notice what the lamps were and what the foolish virgins had?

----------------

As to the other point.

The Holy Spirit is "breathed" into us and becomes the indwelling, when we receive Christ as the risen saviour.

Then the Holy Spirit, gives the "outpouring" to do the work of God.

So the gift of the Holy Spirit in the upper room was for the indwelling (can show this from scripture).

The gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was for evangelism.

Now question is, why are people asking for the latter rain, when they have not received the former rain?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Didn't Jesus breathe on His disciples before He left and give them the Holy Spirit?

Yes He did Sivart. :-)

Thing is, why?

[karl]

The Holy Spirit is "breathed" into us and becomes the indwelling, when we receive Christ as the risen saviour.

Then the Holy Spirit, gives the "outpouring" to do the work of God.

So the gift of the Holy Spirit in the upper room was for the indwelling (can show this from scripture).

The gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was for evangelism.

Now question is, why are people asking for the latter rain, when they have not received the former rain?

i like what you wrote above.

So, do you see the personal indwelling as the former rain and then the evangelistic outpouring as the latter rain?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The Holy Spirit is "breathed" into us and becomes the indwelling, when we receive Christ as the risen saviour.

Then the Holy Spirit, gives the "outpouring" to do the work of God.

So the gift of the Holy Spirit in the upper room was for the indwelling (can show this from scripture).

The gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was for evangelism.

Now question is, why are people asking for the latter rain, when they have not received the former rain?

i like what you wrote above.

So, do you see the personal indwelling as the former rain and then the evangelistic outpouring as the latter rain?

Absolutely my friend.

That is what happened to the disciples.

Here it is in scripture:

Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Notice how it was given.

It was "breathed" into them.

What is this?

An act of Creation, new life...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Without this breath of life, we cannot see the Kingdom of God:

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Being born again, is being filled with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...

Your thoughts?

Mark

PS.

Did you notice what the foolish virgins "had"?

[karl]

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Notice how it was given.

It was "breathed" into them.

What is this?

An act of Creation, new life...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Without this breath of life, we cannot see the Kingdom of God:

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Being born again, is being filled with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...

Your thoughts?

I love it. Nicely outlined, too. Thanks

The foolish virgins had burnt-out lamps, a long sleep, and a shut door.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Notice how it was given.

It was "breathed" into them.

What is this?

An act of Creation, new life...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Without this breath of life, we cannot see the Kingdom of God:

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Being born again, is being filled with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...

Your thoughts?

I love it. Nicely outlined, too. Thanks

The foolish virgins had burnt-out lamps, a long sleep, and a shut door.

Watch this Karl...

--------------

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.

Mat 25:3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

What are the "lamps"?

Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

So the foolish and wise virgins both have the "word", the bible.

Now notice that the foolish virgins had a "little oil" in their lamps, because they complain what they had ran out:

Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

So they have "illumination" from the Holy Spirit, but not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The wise virgins had their "vessels" full of the Holy Spirit.

What are the vessels?

Psa 31:12 I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.

We are the vessel.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].

Who is the potter?

God.

Who is the clay?

Us.

So the foolish virgins had oil in their lamps, they had the "Word" of God and they had had some oil, some leading of the Holy Spirit. There was an intellectual assent to the truth.

But they did not have oil "in them", in their "vessels".

They did not have the experience of the indwelling of the Spirit.

There is more to this, but wanted to see what you thought so far.

Mark :-)

[karl]

So the foolish virgins had oil in their lamps, they had the "Word" of God and they had had some oil, some leading of the Holy Spirit. There was an intellectual assent to the truth.

But they did not have oil "in them", in their "vessels".

They did not have the experience of the indwelling of the Spirit.

There is more to this, but wanted to see what you thought so far.

Mark :-)

I'm with you. Makes sense, and stirs the heart to want more.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So the foolish virgins had oil in their lamps, they had the "Word" of God and they had had some oil, some leading of the Holy Spirit. There was an intellectual assent to the truth.

But they did not have oil "in them", in their "vessels".

They did not have the experience of the indwelling of the Spirit.

There is more to this, but wanted to see what you thought so far.

Mark :-)

I'm with you. Makes sense, and stirs the heart to want more.

So we know the time frame for the above parable/prophecy.

It is the time of the judgement, the commencement, in 1844.

But notice now what the foolish virgins try to do, but too late.

They try to "buy".

This links to the Laodicean message:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Here is the terribly sad thing here though.

They realised their condition and then tried to go and "buy" the oil.

But it was too late and then they were "shut out"....

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Brother, many are waiting for the Latter Rain to do the work of the Former Rain.

People need to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spririt now, that is the former rain.

Because there will come a time when it is too late...

But then we have to consider the Latter Rain in this...

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

Being born again, is being filled with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[teresaq]

and there is this:

My dear brother, what have you been beholding? By beholding the imperfections of men and women, you are gradually becoming changed into the same likeness. Make a decided change, and look to Jesus, that by beholding His perfection, you may become changed into His image. {TDG 46.1}

Turn your eyes from the imperfections of others, and fix them steadfastly on Christ. With a contrite heart, study His life and character. You need not only to be more enlightened, but quickened, that you may see the banquet that is before you, and eat and drink the flesh and blood of the Son of God, which is His Word. By tasting the good Word of life, by feeding on the bread of life, you may see the power of a world to come, and be created anew in Christ Jesus.{TDG 46.3}

[Dr. Rich]

Very nicely said Mark! But what percentage should one put on eyewitness accounts verses hearsay accounts? If this issue were taken to court, would not the hearsay account be objected to because it violated the rules of evidence--and for good reason?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Being born again, is being filled with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I agree with this. Here's a description of this:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175,176)

That is a commentary on the process and deals with more than the simple fact of the indwelling of the Spirit. :-)

Here it is in Jesus' simple words:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

From the above we can see that the Holy Spirit is an "individual".

And that "that" individual would dwell in us.

Then we see the act of "breathing" the Holy Spirit into the disciples.

That was how it was given.

We receive that by faith, they received it in person.

But the important point here, is that we can see from the above texts that the "individual/person" of the Godhead dwells in us, literally.

That dwelling in us, is a specific event only given to Christians that receive it.

The Holy Spirit comes into us and is "in" us, seperate to us, but with us.

We have another Individual, inside us, that Individual is the third person of the Godhead...

But some do not understand this.

They think the "writing of the law on the mind and heart" is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

But that is what He does, first He has to be "in" us to do this.

Because some do not understand this, they do not receive it:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

But if we just read the bible simply, we will see this wonderful truth.

Problem is, that many want to "interpret" the bible on this issue, rather than read its plain statements...

I appeal to those, to set aside this habit and just let the plain words of scripture appeal to you.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

and there is this:

My dear brother, what have you been beholding? By beholding the imperfections of men and women, you are gradually becoming changed into the same likeness. Make a decided change, and look to Jesus, that by beholding His perfection, you may become changed into His image. {TDG 46.1}

Turn your eyes from the imperfections of others, and fix them steadfastly on Christ. With a contrite heart, study His life and character. You need not only to be more enlightened, but quickened, that you may see the banquet that is before you, and eat and drink the flesh and blood of the Son of God, which is His Word. By tasting the good Word of life, by feeding on the bread of life, you may see the power of a world to come, and be created anew in Christ Jesus.{TDG 46.3}

Of course we need to behold...

It is through beholding that we are led to the precious promises of God.

And that ultimately leads to the greatest gift of all.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

What is quoted above, is not really dealing with that specific point.

The specific point can be found by just reading the plain bible texts.

We do not need to run to a commentary on this, to understand this simple truth.

We need only to pick up our bibles.

When we have to run to a commentary to prove a point, even a divinely inspired commentary, when the bible has some plain simple truths that should be considered first, then we are in deep deep trouble...

It means we are not really letting the bible speak to us and we are trying to find "statements" that back up our view.

I would ask all to consider that they try to stick to the bible on this one please.

Otherwise it will just turn into another "my quote is better than your quote" argument, whilst using quotes out of specific context just to prove a personal view.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Very nicely said Mark! But what percentage should one put on eyewitness accounts verses hearsay accounts? If this issue were taken to court, would not the hearsay account be objected to because it violated the rules of evidence--and for good reason?

I actually agree with your principal here on this point Dr Rich.

We should go to the scripture first, prayerfully, especially when it is so plain.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

The specific point can be found by just reading the plain bible texts.

We do not need to run to a commentary on this, to understand this simple truth.

We need only to pick up our bibles.

When we have to run to a commentary to prove a point, even a divinely inspired commentary, when the bible has some plain simple truths that should be considered first, then we are in deep deep trouble...

It means we are not really letting the bible speak to us and we are trying to find "statements" that back up our view.

I would ask all to consider that they try to stick to the bible on this one please.

Otherwise it will just turn into another "my quote is better than your quote" argument, whilst using quotes out of specific context just to prove a personal view.

[teresaq]

The specific point can be found by just reading the plain bible texts.

We do not need to run to a commentary on this, to understand this simple truth.

We need only to pick up our bibles.

When we have to run to a commentary to prove a point, even a divinely inspired commentary, when the bible has some plain simple truths that should be considered first, then we are in deep deep trouble...

It means we are not really letting the bible speak to us and we are trying to find "statements" that back up our view.

I would ask all to consider that they try to stick to the bible on this one please.

Otherwise it will just turn into another "my quote is better than your quote" argument, whilst using quotes out of specific context just to prove a personal view.

[teresaq]

The specific point can be found by just reading the plain bible texts.

We do not need to run to a commentary on this, to understand this simple truth.

We need only to pick up our bibles.

When we have to run to a commentary to prove a point, even a divinely inspired commentary, when the bible has some plain simple truths that should be considered first, then we are in deep deep trouble...

It means we are not really letting the bible speak to us and we are trying to find "statements" that back up our view.

I would ask all to consider that they try to stick to the bible on this one please.

Otherwise it will just turn into another "my quote is better than your quote" argument, whilst using quotes out of specific context just to prove a personal view.

[Musicman1228]

Jesus did not give His disciples the Holy Spirit until AFTER they had been trained in the truth. The disciples spent a year with the Master day in and day out learning the truth right from the source of all truth. They saw His death and resurrection and they saw Him in His new spiritual body (one that could walk through walls) and understood the significance of these things. Only then did Jesus "breathe on them and say, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

This was not done with fanfare and fireworks. It was done softly and gently. Elijah was told that God was not in the fierce wind, or violent earthquake or roaring fire. He was told that God was in the 'still, small voice'. That voice is the Holy Spirit, and in order to hear it one must be still, quiet and peaceful. Jesus had to calm the disciples down with the words, "Peace be with you", before He could give them the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus gave His own disciples the Holy Spirit then why would He feel it necessary to give it to them again, especially in such a dramatic fashion. Was not the first time sufficient for ALL the purposes of God?

I believe that the second time at Pentecost was a counterfeit designed to get the disciples to believe a deception of Satan (including speaking in tongues). Jesus even warned the disciples when He told them about this very kind of deception when He said, "See to it that no one deceive you." (Matt.24:4) If it was impossible for the disciples to be deceived by anyone then why did Jesus give them such a specific warning. Remember, the tongue (singular) of fire that appeared at Pentecost was CLOVEN or forked, just as is the tongue of a serpent. The flame of a candle is not cloven. The symbol of the Holy Spirit is a flame, as in the flame of a candle or lamp-it is not forked, it is singular, just as is truth. There is only ONE truth that the Holy Spirit brings, and that truth is singular and absolute.

[Twilight]

Jesus did not give His disciples the Holy Spirit until AFTER they had been trained in the truth. The disciples spent a year with the Master day in and day out learning the truth right from the source of all truth. They saw His death and resurrection and they saw Him in His new spiritual body (one that could walk through walls) and understood the significance of these things. Only then did Jesus "breathe on them and say, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

This was not done with fanfare and fireworks. It was done softly and gently. Elijah was told that God was not in the fierce wind, or violent earthquake or roaring fire. He was told that God was in the 'still, small voice'. That voice is the Holy Spirit, and in order to hear it one must be still, quiet and peaceful. Jesus had to calm the disciples down with the words, "Peace be with you", before He could give them the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus gave His own disciples the Holy Spirit then why would He feel it necessary to give it to them again, especially in such a dramatic fashion. Was not the first time sufficient for ALL the purposes of God?

I believe that the second time at Pentecost was a counterfeit designed to get the disciples to believe a deception of Satan (including speaking in tongues). Jesus even warned the disciples when He told them about this very kind of deception when He said, "See to it that no one deceive you." (Matt.24:4) If it was impossible for the disciples to be deceived by anyone then why did Jesus give them such a specific warning. Remember, the tongue (singular) of fire that appeared at Pentecost was CLOVEN or forked, just as is the tongue of a serpent. The flame of a candle is not cloven. The symbol of the Holy Spirit is a flame, as in the flame of a candle or lamp-it is not forked, it is singular, just as is truth. There is only ONE truth that the Holy Spirit brings, and that truth is singular and absolute.

The first giving was the "indwelling" MM.

This was given so that the "walk with God" would become possible.

The second was the "outpouring".

This was given so that the message could be taken to the world.

Notice all the aspects of pentecost deal with spreading the message.

Mark

[Musicman1228]

Mark,

Your opinion is well intended but doesn't play to me, given what Jesus said to his disciples in John 20. Read the text again:

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20:21-22.

In this one text I see Jesus giving them their commission, sending His disciples to teach to the world what He taught; and then allowing them to receive the Holy Spirit directly from Him to help them and guide them in this purpose. This is the equivalent to their graduation ceremony from the college of Truth. It is not that they had acquired all the truth, but what they had received to date was the whole truth. Jesus told His disciples that when they received the Holy Spirit He/She would continue to lead them into ALL truth.

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. John 16:13.

I know that considering that Pentecost was a deception of Satan to misdirect and confuse the disciples and the budding Christian church into thinking that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit were/needed to be overt, dynamic and spectacular seems impossible or improbable at best. But I believe if look back at the evidence given by Jesus Christ Himself about the Holy Spirit and how that Spirit works matches what came later, I think you will see a disconnect that is worth investigating.