pnattmbtc Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 But do you accept that they did not "have" the Holy Spirit, until the upper room experience? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Musicman1228 Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 The Disciples were in the same room with Jesus who was a physical presence, as were they. They could see Him and touch Him, and when He breathed on them they could feel the wind from His mouth. This did not require any faith. They did not receive the Holy Spirit by faith. Could it be that we have been shown in this verse the way in which the Holy spirit actually works. We have just assumed that when we 'claim' Jesus as our personal Savior we receive the Holy Spirit right then. But maybe that is not the way it works. Maybe we must first go through the process of Sanctification and then receive the Holy Spirit when that process is completed. The thing that I find interesting is that Jesus made this plain in John 3 and Rev. 12 and many other places, but since we are so caught up in 'tradition' we either ignore what He says or deliberately misrepresent what He said to fit what we already believe. This is tragic, because many will be lost because they believe a lie as if it is the truth. Is this position unreasonable? Quote
oldsailor29 Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 yup. unreasonable. When people left their past behind and followed Jesus, that was faith in action, what their faith and the Holy Spirit led them to do. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
pnattmbtc Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 Quote: 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8) If the disciples were believers in Christ, they had the Holy Spirit. When Peter confessed Christ, Christ pointed out to him that his confession was not of the flesh, but that God had revealed it to him. This was the Spirit at work. Just because Christ was with them physically does not imply that the Holy Spirit was not needed to discern His presence. At the cross, the thief on the one side of him was saved because he responded to the work of the Holy Spirit, who communicated to him what was happening. Everyone else was clueless but this one fellow, even though many were physically present. Why? Because he was attuned to the Spirit. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
oldsailor29 Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 I think receiving the Holy Spirit is not so much like an on/off switch, as it is like a rheostat, with a wide range of power, from the desire for God, to the power over illnesses, demons, and death. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
Musicman1228 Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 I think receiving the Holy Spirit is not so much like an on/off switch, as it is like a rheostat, with a wide range of power, from the desire for God, to the power over illnesses, demons, and death. I like this thought, Oldsailor29. Who's hand is on the knob? Quote
oldsailor29 Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 Originally Posted By: oldsailor29 I think receiving the Holy Spirit is not so much like an on/off switch, as it is like a rheostat, with a wide range of power, from the desire for God, to the power over illnesses, demons, and death. I like this thought, Oldsailor29. Who's hand is on the knob? I would tend to think that God is in control. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
pnattmbtc Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 Jesus said God is more willing to give us the Holy Spirit than we are to give good gifts to our children. This would suggest that we are in control. As much as we allow God to work, God will give us the Holy Spirit. Doesn't that make sense? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Twilight Posted February 11, 2010 Author Posted February 11, 2010 At what point in the Sanctification process does the Holy Spirit indwell a human and make them a divine/spiritual being? At the beginning when they are Justified, or at the end when they are Sanctified? [it is evident that the Holy Spirit works with humans to bring them to the realization of their need of God, which would prompt them to seek to be justified in His sight. It is also apparent that without the Holy Spirit working with humans it would be impossible for a human being to be able to go through (much less complete) the process of Sanctification.] Jesus said "ye must be born again". When Jesus baptises us, He baptises us with the Spirit. That is the point, when we accept Christ and invite the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into our hearts. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted February 11, 2010 Author Posted February 11, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight p:I understand that Jesus told them to do something which required faith, and the disciples understood this, and by faith received the Holy Spirit. Is this your understanding as well? Mark:My understanding is that this was how they received the Holy Spirit. What is "this"? Quote: It was a literal event where Jesus breathed on them. We do not have that same "literal" experience, but receive it by Faith in the promise that we do receive it. I think we have the same literal experience. We receive the Holy Spirit literally, by faith, just like they did. How do you think they received the Holy Spirit if not by faith? Quote: That they had faith in Jesus is not being argued. No, not that they had faith, but that they received the Holy Spirit by faith. I'm understanding you to say that they did not receive the Holy Spirit by faith. Quote: The simple point is this. Jesus breathed on them, in person and at that point they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, which they had not had "in them" before. Do you agree with that? Yes, this was the point that they received the Holy Spirit by faith. How do you think they received it if not by faith? I am not trying to be rude Pnat, but I have answered all these questions before. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted February 11, 2010 Author Posted February 11, 2010 The Disciples were in the same room with Jesus who was a physical presence, as were they. They could see Him and touch Him, and when He breathed on them they could feel the wind from His mouth. This did not require any faith. They did not receive the Holy Spirit by faith. Could it be that we have been shown in this verse the way in which the Holy spirit actually works. We have just assumed that when we 'claim' Jesus as our personal Savior we receive the Holy Spirit right then. But maybe that is not the way it works. Maybe we must first go through the process of Sanctification and then receive the Holy Spirit when that process is completed. The thing that I find interesting is that Jesus made this plain in John 3 and Rev. 12 and many other places, but since we are so caught up in 'tradition' we either ignore what He says or deliberately misrepresent what He said to fit what we already believe. This is tragic, because many will be lost because they believe a lie as if it is the truth. Is this position unreasonable? Not unreasonable, but biblically unsound I think. If you were going to use this argument for the outpouring of Pentecost, I might think you have an interesting point. But we note that it is the "fruit of the Spirit" that is bought to us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That means the Spirit has to be there first. Before the fruit. Being born again is the receipt of the new life from Christ. The Growing up is our sanctification. But we need the Holy Spirit in us to make that happen. I see anything else as trying to sanctify ourselves to earn the Holy Spirit. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted February 11, 2010 Author Posted February 11, 2010 Quote: 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8) If the disciples were believers in Christ, they had the Holy Spirit. When Peter confessed Christ, Christ pointed out to him that his confession was not of the flesh, but that God had revealed it to him. This was the Spirit at work. Just because Christ was with them physically does not imply that the Holy Spirit was not needed to discern His presence. At the cross, the thief on the one side of him was saved because he responded to the work of the Holy Spirit, who communicated to him what was happening. Everyone else was clueless but this one fellow, even though many were physically present. Why? Because he was attuned to the Spirit. Problem with this Pnat, is that at this point Peter did not have the gift of the indwelling of the Spirit. The opening chronology in the first post shows me this. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted February 11, 2010 Author Posted February 11, 2010 Jesus said God is more willing to give us the Holy Spirit than we are to give good gifts to our children. This would suggest that we are in control. As much as we allow God to work, God will give us the Holy Spirit. Doesn't that make sense? We are in control in our choice to ask for it, then to maintain it by constant surrender to His leading is my understanding. :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Musicman1228 Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:21. In John 3 Jesus is speaking of being born again by the power of the Holy Spirit, and He ends His teaching here with the quote above. How does this quote affect the idea that the Holy Spirit comes into us first before a change for the better is affected in us? Quote
Twilight Posted February 11, 2010 Author Posted February 11, 2010 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:21. In John 3 Jesus is speaking of being born again by the power of the Holy Spirit, and He ends His teaching here with the quote above. How does this quote affect the idea that the Holy Spirit comes into us first before a change for the better is affected in us? Maybe this is the result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit MM? Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
pnattmbtc Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 I am not trying to be rude Pnat, but I have answered all these questions before. Not rude, but evasive. You've addressed how the disciples did *not* receive the Holy Spirit (not by faith) and when they received it (when Jesus Christ breathed on them), but not how. I said the only thing I could think of that wasn't by faith would be by inhalation, an idea you didn't appear to agree with, but you suggested no alternative. The specific question I've been asking, which I don't believe you have answered, is how the disciples received the Holy Spirit. If you believe you've answered this, please tell me in which post you stated this. This is a small thread, so that should be easy to do. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 Problem with this Pnat, is that at this point Peter did not have the gift of the indwelling of the Spirit. The opening chronology in the first post shows me this. Then Peter wasn't born again, right? So you're asserting that Peter, at the time he made his confession of Christ ("upon this rock I will establish my church") was not born again? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
oldsailor29 Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 Jesus said God is more willing to give us the Holy Spirit than we are to give good gifts to our children. This would suggest that we are in control. As much as we allow God to work, God will give us the Holy Spirit. Doesn't that make sense? God gives us the power to will and to do. IOW, God gives us the desire to serve Him, and the ways and means to do so. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
karl Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc Jesus said God is more willing to give us the Holy Spirit than we are to give good gifts to our children. This would suggest that we are in control. As much as we allow God to work, God will give us the Holy Spirit. Doesn't that make sense? God gives us the power to will and to do. IOW, God gives us the desire to serve Him, and the ways and means to do so. So, what is the problem? If everybody is given the desire to serve Him, the power and the will and the ways and the means, whasup with the fact that all don't serve Him? Quote
oldsailor29 Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 Originally Posted By: oldsailor29 God gives us the power to will and to do. IOW, God gives us the desire to serve Him, and the ways and means to do so. So, what is the problem? If everybody is given the desire to serve Him, the power and the will and the ways and the means, whasup with the fact that all don't serve Him? The answer is obvious. Not everyone is given that desire. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
pnattmbtc Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 1.Why would God give the desire to some and not to others, especially in the light of the fact that He presents Himself as not being a respecter of persons? 2.If a person is given the desire, can that desire be resisted? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
karl Posted February 11, 2010 Posted February 11, 2010 1.Why would God give the desire to some and not to others, especially in the light of the fact that He presents Himself as not being a respecter of persons? 2.If a person is given the desire, can that desire be resisted? I think desire is "awakened" in the hearts of we who see Jesus lifted up and want to be saved. In that way, the desire we have is a gift. But many don't look expecting to be healed. They just see it like they would any other thing they see. "Oh look, there's Jesus on the cross, and look there's a Ferrari." Quote
oldsailor29 Posted February 12, 2010 Posted February 12, 2010 1.Why would God give the desire to some and not to others, especially in the light of the fact that He presents Himself as not being a respecter of persons? 2.If a person is given the desire, can that desire be resisted? Why would God? I don't know why God does anything. Probably because He wants to. Not being a respecter of persons means that His decisions are not based on a persons position in life. I don't believe anyone truly understands free will and determinism, in our relationship with God. But this gift of desire is part of that picture. I think it is not very likely that someone with a God-given desire toward Him would be easily able to resist it. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
Twilight Posted February 12, 2010 Author Posted February 12, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight I am not trying to be rude Pnat, but I have answered all these questions before. Not rude, but evasive. You've addressed how the disciples did *not* receive the Holy Spirit (not by faith) and when they received it (when Jesus Christ breathed on them), but not how. I said the only thing I could think of that wasn't by faith would be by inhalation, an idea you didn't appear to agree with, but you suggested no alternative. The specific question I've been asking, which I don't believe you have answered, is how the disciples received the Holy Spirit. If you believe you've answered this, please tell me in which post you stated this. This is a small thread, so that should be easy to do. It seems Pnat, you want me to offer an opinion on a detail that is not supplied? Which I have no intention of doing. It sounds like you "want" me to say the "disciples inhaled", when the scripture does not state that clearly? How could I know that detail? What do you think happened, do you want to "fill in the blanks"? Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted February 12, 2010 Author Posted February 12, 2010 Originally Posted By: Twilight Problem with this Pnat, is that at this point Peter did not have the gift of the indwelling of the Spirit. The opening chronology in the first post shows me this. Then Peter wasn't born again, right? So you're asserting that Peter, at the time he made his confession of Christ ("upon this rock I will establish my church") was not born again? No, I do not see how Peter could have been born again at that point. Because He had not been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Himself is quite plain on this as is John. The simple chronology shows that, unless I have missed something. But as I suspect that you think everyone already "has" the Holy Spirit, this will be difficult for you to understand. Correct me if I am wrong? Do you believe that "everyone" already has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The reason I ask, is I know you are into Waggoners writings and he got caught with drifting into the error of pantheism. Do you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was a specific event for the disciples Pnat? (I would really like you to answer this direct question). Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
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