When did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

[Twilight]

Mark, as I understand your view, the disciples received the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them. You don't know how this happened, except you think it wasn't by faith, since they were in Jesus' physical presence. You've also said previously that you believe that when one is born again, one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So is it your belief that the disciples were born again when Jesus breathed on them? (i.e., this is the time at which they were born again).

Yes, that pretty much sums up my present position.

The disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time.

We know they did not have it before, because Jesus said so.

We know that they could not have it before He ascended, because the bible said so.

Then the first instance of them receiving the Holy Spirit after Christ's ascension was in the upper room.

Then they were taught of Jesus for 40 days, about the kingdom of God.

Then the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was given to equip them to spread the gospel.

This I would say is the former and latter rain in the individuals experience.

Christ also had the same experience.

He was born with the Holy Spirit, but received power when He entered into His ministry.

Following the bible closely, this is the only conclusion I can come to.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Does that mean that the disciples (the 12 and the 70) were not born again when Jesus sent them at the time of the first call of the parable of Matt.22 prior to His crucifixion? See C.O.L.308.

sky

[Twilight]

Does that mean that the disciples (the 12 and the 70) were not born again when Jesus sent them at the time of the first call of the parable of Matt.22 prior to His crucifixion? See C.O.L.308.

sky

Absolutely.

They were only born again when the Holy Spirit was given to them.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here is a simple timeline Sky:

--------------

First we note that the disciples had not been given the Holy Spirit, because it would only be given after Jesus was glorified:

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Then we notice that the Holy Spirit was with them (in Christ), but not in them:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Then after His ascencion, we notice that the Holy Spirit is given in the upper room:

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So there we have the sequence of the giving of the Holy Spirit.

The sequence of being “Born Again” for the disciples.

We can also note that the giving of the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit was for the Spreading of the Gospel.

In between the giving of the "breath of life" in the upper room and the "outpouring" at pentecost, Jesus was teaching them something...

Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

He was explaing the "kingdom of God".

The life of the Born again believer that has the indwelling of the Spirit (another study).

So, new birth (when merits are available).

Teaching of the new life in Christ.

Outpouring of the Gospel.

Your thoughts?

Mark

[skyblue888]

Mark you quoted John 7:39 "But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified." as evidence that the Holy Spirit had not been "given" prior to Jesus being glorified.

Mark, I can see why, by reading this text, at first glance, one can easily draw the conclusion that, before a certain time, the disciples had not received the Holy Spirit in any measure whatsoever. But that would mean that even in Old Testament times no one had received the Holy Spirit! That no one could receive the Holy Spirit until after the crucifixion when Jesus went up on High and was glorified.

But there is another interpretation for that verse, an interpretation that we may not have considered yet. According to the pen of inspiration, the words of John 7:39, "not yet given" refer to the fact that prior to Jesus being glorified, the Holy Spirit had never been given in its fullness. Not that the Holy Spirit had not been received at all, but that the gift had never been given in its fullness! In other words, the influence of the Holy Spirit had been manifested in smaller or greater measure in and through God's children but never in its fullness!

It is in the book of Acts that we find confirmation for this in the chapter titled "Pentecost".

"During the patriarchal age the influence of the Holy Spirit had often been revealed in a marked manner, but never in its fullness. Now, in obedience to the word of the Saviour, the disciples offered their supplications for this gift, and in heaven Christ added His intercession. (Pleading the merits of His shed blood) He claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it upon His people. 'And when the Day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the house where they were sitting.' The Spirit came upon the waiting, praying disciples with a fullness that reached every heart." A.A.37,38.

This is, I believe, what Peter was talking about when He said, "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you."

The prophets of old prophesied of the grace (fullness of the Spirit) that would come to the disciples, and it is said that they searched diligently as to when and what manner of time this would take place. It is said that the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, testified beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. See 1 Peter 1:11. "To them was revealed that, not for themselves, but for us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven--things which angels desire to look into." verse 12.

Like the prophets of old who prophesied by the Spirit of Christ who was in them, about the time or the manner of time when this would take place, the angels were also inquiring and desiring to know when the gift of the Holy Spirit would be given in its fullness.

So my understanding from this is that the disciples had received a measure of the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost but at Pentecost they they were able to receive the fullness because Jesus had been glorified. The Father had bowed in acceptance of the sacrifice.

What say you?

sky

[Twilight]

Mark you quoted John 7:39 "But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified." as evidence that the Holy Spirit had not been "given" prior to Jesus being glorified.

Mark, I can see why, by reading this text, at first glance, one can easily draw the conclusion that, before a certain time, the disciples had not received the Holy Spirit in any measure whatsoever. But that would mean that even in Old Testament times no one had received the Holy Spirit! That no one could receive the Holy Spirit until after the crucifixion when Jesus went up on High and was glorified.

But there is another interpretation for that verse, an interpretation that we may not have considered yet. According to the pen of inspiration, the words of John 7:39, "not yet given" refer to the fact that prior to Jesus being glorified, the Holy Spirit had never been given in its fullness. Not that the Holy Spirit had not been received at all, but that the gift had never been given in its fullness! In other words, the influence of the Holy Spirit had been manifested in smaller or greater measure in and through God's children but never in its fullness!

It is in the book of Acts that we find confirmation for this in the chapter titled "Pentecost".

"During the patriarchal age the influence of the Holy Spirit had often been revealed in a marked manner, but never in its fullness. Now, in obedience to the word of the Saviour, the disciples offered their supplications for this gift, and in heaven Christ added His intercession. (Pleading the merits of His she blood) He claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it upon His people. 'And when the Day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the house where they were sitting.' The Spirit came upon the waiting, praying disciples with a fullness that reached every heart." A.A.37,38.

This is, I believe, what Peter was talking about when He said, "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you."

The prophets of old prophesied of the grace (fullness of the Spirit) that would come to the disciples, and it is said that they searched diligently as to when this would take place. It is said that the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, testified beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. See 1 Peter 1:11. "To them of old was revealed that, not for themselves, but for us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven--things which angels desire to look into." verse 12.

Like the prophets of old who prophesied by the Spirit of Christ who was in them, about the time or the manner of time when this would take place, the angels were also inquiring and desiring to know when the gift of the Holy Spirit would be given in its fullness.

So my understanding from this is that the disciples had received a measure of the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost but at Pentecost they they were able to receive the fullness because Jesus had been glorified. The Father had bowed in acceptance of the sacrifice.

What say you?

sky

Sky, do you mind if we stick to the bible on this one?

It can get very confusing when we start to use SOP to define what the bible plainly states.

We should examine the bible first.

==================

When I examine the biblical giving of the Spirit, there was a very specific gift given to the early Christian Church that was a new gift.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Men had been directed and inspired by the Holy Spirit in the OT, that is clear, but they had not been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Now Jesus may have just been referring to the disciples when He said that the Holy Spirit had not yet been given, but does that make sense?

We know that Peter had spoken by the Spirit, when He named Christ.

But chronologically, Jesus had not yet ascended, so Peter had not "received" the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We can therefore deduce that the influence of the Holy Spirit was not the thing the disciples had not recieved.

But something different.

The clue is in the statement that Jesus made when He said:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice the "shall be in you".

That was yet future.

So we have a specific manifestation of the Spirit that was time sensitive and experientially sensitive.

What that manifestation was is the discussion.

I personally believe it was the "born again" experience that comes through receipt of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing else fits.

There is a lot more to this yet...

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Mark, Are you asking me to take your interpretation before the Holy Spirit's interpretation? You ask me to forget the Holy Spirit's interpretation which would show that your interpretation does not quite fit and then you imply that what the Holy Spirit says through the prophet does not fit! It is true that it does not quite fit your interpretation. So what will it be?

Why have we been given the Testimonies if it is not to correct our errors and to guide us into safe paths? In these last days we need the Testimonies because so many interpretations of the Scriptures abound and we need a Thus Saith the Lord through His prophet.

The point that was made is that when one reads John 7:39 it is easy to assume that it means this or that but the pen of inspiration has shed light on that verse but you are asking me to ignore it?

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. (John 2:11)

My understanding is that the disciples were born again here, as I don't believe one can be a believer without being born again.

[pnattmbtc]

sky's point is well taken. According to the Bible

Quote:

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8)

This is just as true of the OT saints as the NT ones. The only way to heaven is by being born again (John 3:3), and all those who are born again have the Spirit. Therefore if no one had the Spirit before Christ was glorified, then no one was born again before that time, and no one from the time before Christ was glorified will be in heaven.

What Ellen White wrote about this is patently obvious, IMO.

[skyblue888]

Thats exactly the point.

Thank you.

sky

[Musicman1228]

sky's point is well taken. According to the Bible

Quote:

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8)

This is just as true of the OT saints as the NT ones. The only way to heaven is by being born again (John 3:3), and all those who are born again have the Spirit. Therefore if no one had the Spirit before Christ was glorified, then no one was born again before that time, and no one from the time before Christ was glorified will be in heaven.

What Ellen White wrote about this is patently obvious, IMO.

The above statement in bold type does not tell the entire story. Jesus said you must be born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but most Christians erroneously believe that you are born again when you receive the Holy Spirit, and this is not what Jesus taught. Again, most Christians believe that you when you claim that Jesus Christ is your personal Savior you receive the light of the Holy Spirit and THEN you become righteous by grace through faith that this is the way it works. That IS NOT what Jesus taught. Here is what Jesus said:

"But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:21.

Here Jesus says that what a person must do to be born again is to do or practice the truth, THEN you come to the light (Holy Spirit). This is opposite of what we have been taught in other parts of the New Testament. So who will you believe, Jesus or someone else?

According to Jesus we are born again when we become righteous not the other way around. But is this true?

[Twilight]

Mark, Are you asking me to take your interpretation before the Holy Spirit's interpretation? You ask me to forget the Holy Spirit's interpretation which would show that your interpretation does not quite fit and then you imply that what the Holy Spirit says through the prophet does not fit! It is true that it does not quite fit your interpretation. So what will it be?

Why have we been given the Testimonies if it is not to correct our errors and to guide us into safe paths? In these last days we need the Testimonies because so many interpretations of the Scriptures abound and we need a Thus Saith the Lord through His prophet.

The point that was made is that when one reads John 7:39 it is easy to assume that it means this or that but the pen of inspiration has shed light on that verse but you are asking me to ignore it?

sky

No Sky.

I am asking you to establish doctrine from the Bible, as Adventists are supposed to do.

I have no problem with the SOP.

But I do have a problem, when we do not go to the bible first.

Why?

Because we often go to the SOP to establish "our point of view" and ignore the scripture.

This is dangerous.

Our first port of call is always the bible.

When we have established the doctrine there, we can go on to SOP.

This is my request.

This is a bible study/discussion.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. (John 2:11)

My understanding is that the disciples were born again here, as I don't believe one can be a believer without being born again.

But the Spirit was not given at that time, in the sense of the Indwelling.

At that time the promise of the Kingdom of God was being shown, but the reality had not arrived.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

sky's point is well taken. According to the Bible

Quote:

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8)

This is just as true of the OT saints as the NT ones. The only way to heaven is by being born again (John 3:3), and all those who are born again have the Spirit. Therefore if no one had the Spirit before Christ was glorified, then no one was born again before that time, and no one from the time before Christ was glorified will be in heaven.

What Ellen White wrote about this is patently obvious, IMO.

Yes it is an interesting point.

And I am asking this question as I study.

What is clear however, is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had not been given to the disciples at that point in time, how that applies backwards, I do not know yet, but in the context of the disciples, they had not received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

sky's point is well taken. According to the Bible

This is just as true of the OT saints as the NT ones. The only way to heaven is by being born again (John 3:3), and all those who are born again have the Spirit. Therefore if no one had the Spirit before Christ was glorified, then no one was born again before that time, and no one from the time before Christ was glorified will be in heaven.

What Ellen White wrote about this is patently obvious, IMO.

The above statement in bold type does not tell the entire story. Jesus said you must be born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but most Christians erroneously believe that you are born again when you receive the Holy Spirit, and this is not what Jesus taught. Again, most Christians believe that you when you claim that Jesus Christ is your personal Savior you receive the light of the Holy Spirit and THEN you become righteous by grace through faith that this is the way it works. That IS NOT what Jesus taught. Here is what Jesus said:

"But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:21.

Here Jesus says that what a person must do to be born again is to do or practice the truth, THEN you come to the light (Holy Spirit). This is opposite of what we have been taught in other parts of the New Testament. So who will you believe, Jesus or someone else?

According to Jesus we are born again when we become righteous not the other way around. But is this true?

This is incorrect.

The seed has to be planted first, then it grows.

Mark :-)

[Musicman1228]

The above statement in bold type does not tell the entire story. Jesus said you must be born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but most Christians erroneously believe that you are born again when you receive the Holy Spirit, and this is not what Jesus taught. Again, most Christians believe that you when you claim that Jesus Christ is your personal Savior you receive the light of the Holy Spirit and THEN you become righteous by grace through faith that this is the way it works. That IS NOT what Jesus taught. Here is what Jesus said:

"But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:21.

Here Jesus says that what a person must do to be born again is to do or practice the truth, THEN you come to the light (Holy Spirit). This is opposite of what we have been taught in other parts of the New Testament. So who will you believe, Jesus or someone else?

According to Jesus we are born again when we become righteous not the other way around. But is this true?

[pnattmbtc]

This is backwards. Verse 21 comes after verse 16. Verse 3 says "You must be born again." Being born again is by faith, believing in Jesus Christ. Then, after being born again, one may practice good works, because one has been born again. John makes this clear in his first epistle, chapter 3. One who is born again does not practice sin because His seed remains in him. Verse 9.

When the Jews asked Jesus what they should do to do the works of God, Jesus replied, "This is the work of God; that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Jesus taught righteousness by faith.

When the publican prayed, "Lord, by merciful to me, a sinner," Jesus replied, "This man went to his house justified." This is righteousness by faith.

[pnattmbtc]

Yes it is an interesting point.

And I am asking this question as I study.

What is clear however, is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had not been given to the disciples at that point in time, how that applies backwards, I do not know yet, but in the context of the disciples, they had not received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

What is also clear is that there is a hole in your position. You claim:

1.The Holy Spirit wasn't given (in the sense that one could receive the indwelling of the Spirit) until Jesus Christ was glorified.

2.When one is born again, one receives the indwelling of the Spirit.

But if this is case, it follows that:

3.No one was born again until Jesus Christ was glorified.

This conclusion is false, therefore one of your assumptions (or both) must be incorrect.

[Musicman1228]

This is backwards. Verse 21 comes after verse 16. Verse 3 says "You must be born again." Being born again is by faith, believing in Jesus Christ. Then, after being born again, one may practice good works, because one has been born again. John makes this clear in his first epistle, chapter 3. One who is born again does not practice sin because His seed remains in him. Verse 9.

When the Jews asked Jesus what they should do to do the works of God, Jesus replied, "This is the work of God; that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Jesus taught righteousness by faith.

When the publican prayed, "Lord, by merciful to me, a sinner," Jesus replied, "This man went to his house justified." This is righteousness by faith.

So what you are saying is that Jesus got it wrong in v. 21? You are saying that somehow He got it backwards? Really?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Yes it is an interesting point.

And I am asking this question as I study.

What is clear however, is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had not been given to the disciples at that point in time, how that applies backwards, I do not know yet, but in the context of the disciples, they had not received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

What is also clear is that there is a hole in your position. You claim:

1.The Holy Spirit wasn't given (in the sense that one could receive the indwelling of the Spirit) until Jesus Christ was glorified.

2.When one is born again, one receives the indwelling of the Spirit.

But if this is case, it follows that:

3.No one was born again until Jesus Christ was glorified.

This conclusion is false, therefore one of your assumptions (or both) must be incorrect.

I have been thinking about this.

Now we have to consider what the Kingdom of God is and when it was introduced.

If that is a specific experience that was not experienced before Christ, then the point would stand, would you agree?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Ok, Mark. If my understanding of John 3:21 is incorrect please give me your explanation of that text. I would also appreciate a comparison with Rev. 3:21 (interesting that both texts are 3:21. Is this a coincidence?). Again, thanks.

It is only the enabling of the Holy Spirit that allows for victory over sin MM.

That is my understanding.

Mark

[Musicman1228]

Mark,

That is true. But what does "enabling" mean. We have already established that the Holy Spirit can work with anyone who is willing, even when the Holy Spirit is not indwelling them. Is this true?

[Twilight]

Mark,

That is true. But what does "enabling" mean. We have already established that the Holy Spirit can work with anyone who is willing, even when the Holy Spirit is not indwelling them. Is this true?

I would agree with that.

[skyblue888]

What is also clear is that there is a hole in your position. You claim:

1.The Holy Spirit wasn't given (in the sense that one could receive the indwelling of the Spirit) until Jesus Christ was glorified.

2.When one is born again, one receives the indwelling of the Spirit.

But if this is case, it follows that:

3.No one was born again until Jesus Christ was glorified.

This conclusion is false, therefore one of your assumptions (or both) must be incorrect.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

This is backwards. Verse 21 comes after verse 16. Verse 3 says "You must be born again." Being born again is by faith, believing in Jesus Christ. Then, after being born again, one may practice good works, because one has been born again. John makes this clear in his first epistle, chapter 3. One who is born again does not practice sin because His seed remains in him. Verse 9.

When the Jews asked Jesus what they should do to do the works of God, Jesus replied, "This is the work of God; that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Jesus taught righteousness by faith.

When the publican prayed, "Lord, by merciful to me, a sinner," Jesus replied, "This man went to his house justified." This is righteousness by faith.

So what you are saying is that Jesus got it wrong in v. 21? You are saying that somehow He got it backwards? Really?

No, I think Jesus got it right. I think you have it backwards. That's why I said, "This is backwards," and quoted what Jesus said to establish this.

[pnattmbtc]

I have been thinking about this.

Now we have to consider what the Kingdom of God is and when it was introduced.

If that is a specific experience that was not experienced before Christ, then the point would stand, would you agree?

You're suggesting that nobody was born again until after Jesus was glorified? And when saying that Nicodemus had to be born again to see the Kingdom of God He was not speaking of eternal life? This seems unlikely, as vs. 16, the one everyone knows, says that God gave His Son so that whosoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So the context looks to be speaking of eternal life vs. perishing, which is not an experience which began after Christ was glorified, as, if this were the case, nobody who lived before this time could have eternal life, which is obviously false.