When did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you."

When we recognize this fact, it becomes obvious why it can't be won by force.

[Musicman1228]

Exactly sky. And since musicman does not accept the writings of Paul, you need to quote where that originally came from. Which is Habakkuk 2:4

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

And by your definition we can actually finish this text with, 'but the just shall live by TRUST.'

By the way, who and what are the 'just'.

[pnattmbtc]

Please also note Pnat, I am studying these things out as we converse.

So your questioning is appreciated, the challenges are very useful.

Good!

[Musicman1228]

"For in it--the Gospel--the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The Just shall live by faith." Rom.1:17.

If there was a difference between faith and trust and we needed to go from faith to trust, I believe it would have said, from faith to trust!

sky

That is exactly what I said in an earlier post. We start are walk of truth without much information or knowledge; this requires 'faith'. As we move forward and learn more and more truth and get rid of more and more lies we need less and less faith. This is the process of Sanctification in a nutshell. Eventually we acquire all the truth through the words of Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit, at which point we no longer operate in faith we operate in trust. Faith helps us get started, trust helps us reach the finish line.

[pnattmbtc]

Faith involves trust, but faith involves more than trust. For example, consider Mary Magdalene, who crashed Simon's party to anoint Christ. She spent a year's wages on the perfume she used to anoint Christ. The perfume represented the sweet fragrance of Christ's own sacrifice. Christ was tempted to feel that the great sacrifice He was about to provide would be of no avail, and the Holy Spirit was answering His prayer through a willing servant, Mary. Mary didn't understand all the reasons for what she was doing, but was prompted to do what she did by the Holy Spirit.

The disciples, led by Judas, complained of such extravagance, but Jesus rebuked them and praised Mary. The salient point, to this discussion, is that Jesus ended the discussion telling the woman, "Go in peace. Thy faith has saved you."

Yes, Mary trusted Christ, but much more was involved here than mere trust. She spent an entire year's wages to do something to thank Christ for what He had done for her.

Faith involves this. It involves a binding of the heart to God in recognition of what God has done for one, and means to one, in a response of gratefulness and thanksgiving.

[wayfinder]

Would you be so kind as to show me where Mary Magdalene is named in this account in Luke 7, which incidently is unique to Luke.

[Musicman1228]

I hadn't thought that it was either faith or trust that prompted Mary to do what she did for Jesus. You could be right. I thought that it was her love for Jesus that caused her to express herself that way.

It is my understanding that Mary of Magdala is not the same person as Mary the sister of Martha and Lazarus. Is this true?

[Twilight]

Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21.This is not a temporal kingdom to be sure and it is not yet the kingdom which He will establish at His return, the kingdom of glory. The "Kingdom of God" is "the gospel of God" or the "kingdom of His grace" for it is "the gospel of the grace of God" or "the word of His grace." Acts 20:24,32.

This "kingdom" was introduced in the garden of Eden immediately after the fall.

"The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom. 14:16.

Sky

The "kingdom of God" or the "kingdom of heaven" was only preached from John the Baptists time.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

It was taught by Christ for 3 1/2 years.

Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

But it was not "initiated" until this point in time:

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So if we know at what point Satan was cast down, we know at what point the kingdom of God was initiated...

Correct me if I am wrong, but Christ's crucifixion/ascenscion was the point where Satan was cast out...

Mark

[Twilight]

If you read the verse again, Jesus is stating that unless you are "born" again, you cannot "see" the Kingdom of God.

So the new birth is here given as the first step needed to "see" the Kingdom of God.

I now realise that this was a "new" experience, that the patriarchs had not had.

So Jesus is specifiying the conditions for receiving the "new experience", not the "old experience".

Mark :-)

__________________________________

Mark, when Jesus commanded His disciples to "love one another," was that a new commandment? No. Yet Jesus said it was a "new" commandment. That commandment was not new at all. It is stated in the Old Testament. It was a new commandment to the disciples only in the sense that they had not yet been filled with the love of God in their hearts. It was the same when Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be born again." The new birth was nothing new. Abraham was certainly born again. Abraham experienced the kingdom of God within. "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21. He was born of the Spirit. The Spirit of Christ was within him. He was one of His. Abraham was a Christian just as Adam became a Christian after the fall when he accepted the plan of salvation.

Nicodemus and those who later became the disciples of Christ could have been born again prior to meeting with Him. Because the "true light" by which they could have experienced the new birth had been lost sight of, burried underneath the rubbish of human traditions and speculations, they were in dire need of the righteousness of Christ. This righteousness (kingdom of God within you) which accomplishes everything would have been brought into their life by trusting wholly in the merits of a Saviour to come.

It is the same now. "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches." E.G. White, 6 B.C.1075. Many who profess to be Christians are "buried alive," not born again because the "true light" has been lost sight of.

"Many have a nominal faith in Christ, but they know nothing of that vital dependence upon Him which appropriates the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." 1 S.M.389.

"Through the sacrifices and offerings brought to the earthly sanctuary, the children of Israel were to lay hold of the merits of a Saviour to come." Spiritual Gifts, Vol.1, p.161.

All who did this were born from above. The kingdom of God was within them. It is a kingdom of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. They had received the grace of the Holy Spirit. The only difference with us is that they could not experience the fulless of the Spirit. The fullness of the Spirit was not experienced until after Jesus was glorified. And that is why we read that at Pentecost "The Spirit came upon the waiting, praying disciples with a fullness that reached every heart." A.A.38.

The prophets of old spoke by the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) of this grace which would come upon the disciples of Christ at Pentecost. They searched diligently about these things testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the "glories" that would follow.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

p:You're suggesting that nobody was born again until after Jesus was glorified? And when saying that Nicodemus had to be born again to see the Kingdom of God He was not speaking of eternal life? This seems unlikely, as vs. 16, the one everyone knows, says that God gave His Son so that whosoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So the context looks to be speaking of eternal life vs. perishing, which is not an experience which began after Christ was glorified, as, if this were the case, nobody who lived before this time could have eternal life, which is obviously false.

T:If you read the verse again, Jesus is stating that unless you are "born" again, you cannot "see" the Kingdom of God.

So the new birth is here given as the first step needed to "see" the Kingdom of God.

I now realise that this was a "new" experience, that the patriarchs had not had.

So Jesus is specifiying the conditions for receiving the "new experience", not the "old experience".

This didn't address the points made. Jesus was talking about receiving eternal life. Verses 14-16 make this clear. If nobody was born again until Christ's glorification, then nobody received eternal life until then as well.

Until we settle the chronology of the Kingdom of God, none of this will make sense.

(See my post to sky).

Mark

[Musicman1228]

When sin entered the world by way of Satan lying to the nations that he was their 'god and creator' he instigated the 'kingdom of the world' in rebellion against God. God created Adam and Eve to be the progenitors of the kingdom that God needed to establish to regain control of the world from the Usurper and restore righteousness to the earth. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden they gave over complete control of the kingdoms of the world to Satan. But God had a plan, and that plan was 'The Kingdom of Heaven'.

God had to establish a kingdom 'on' the world but not 'of' the world for the purpose of taking the message 'to' the world that the god the world was worshipping was not the legitimate and true God of Creation. God set up a strict time table for the assembling of this kingdom such that all of the events that would have to take place to restore the world to righteousness could occur 'right on time', thus proving that it was God doing it. There is nothing random about what God does because of 'when' God does it.

So, after much preparation, God established His first 'Kingdom of the Heavens' on earth in 1437 BCE by removing the Children of Israel from bondage in Egypt and placing them inside this newly formed 'Kingdom' at Sinai. God established this Kingdom by Covenant, a set of rules for membership in the Kingdom of Heaven. Israel agreed to those rules which came to them in the form of 10 Commandments, thereby ratifying the Covenant that God established (not Moses) and thereby (at that moment) becoming the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

God gave this people two chances to accomplish His will and purpose for establishing them as His Kingdom in the first place; that is, to take the message as to who the Creator of the world was to the world so as to restore the rulership of the world to God. This is the true purpose of the Kingdom of Heaven. Both times they failed. At the end of the second chance (490 years of Dan. 9:24) Israel stated categorically that they did not want to become again the Kingdom of the Heaven by putting Jesus on the cross (they did not kill Him by doing this) and by declaring that "we have no king but Caesar". In 33 CE (the final year of the 70 weeks of years prophecy) God removed the status of 'Kingdom of Heaven' from Israel, and they became as any other nation on earth. At that point there was no longer a 'Kingdom of the Heavens' on earth.

Many now believe that the Christian church became the Kingdom of Heaven, but this is not supported by either history or prophecy. By history because at no time since 34 CE has there been unity within what became known as the 'Christian Church'. In prophecy because in Daniel 2 God said that He would establish a Kingdom at the end of time that would not be overtaken by any other kingdom. See. Dan.3:34-35 and Dan. 3:44-45. This final Kingdom was established on earth at the end of the 2300 evening and morning prophecy in Dan. 8:14. It was established under the same Covenant as at Sinai. It is this final Kingdom of the Heavens that will accomplish the task for which God established His Kingdom on earth way back in 1437 BCE.

The problem is that this Kingdom is sound asleep and does not yet realize that they are indeed the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. (Matt. 25:1-13, Rev. 3:1-21).

[skyblue888]

But the Kingdom of Heaven was not established in Abrahams time.

To "see" the Kingdom of Heaven meant that the believer must have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The "Kingdom of heaven/God" was a new thing...

This is what my studies of the timelines in the bible have shown (please see previous post).

Mark :-)

________________________________________________________________

Mark, "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

And the grace of God is the grace of the Holy Spirit. "The grace of the Holy Spirit has been offered to you again and again." T.M.97.

This is the kingdom of God, the kingdom of His grace which Jesus said is "within you." Luke 17:21.

Evidence of this is found in Genesis 3:15.

"Since the announcement to the serpent in Eden, 'I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed,' (Gen.3;15), Satan had known that he did not hold absolute sway over the world. There was seen in men the working of a power that withstood his dominion." Desire of Ages, p.115.

Notice these words again: There was seen in men the working of a power that withstood Satan's dominion! This power was none other than Christ through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

"Since the first gospel sermon was preached, when in Eden it was declared that the Seed of the woman should bruise the serpent's head, Christ had been uplifted as the way, the truth, and the life. He was the way when Adam lived, when Abel presented to God the blood of the slain lamb, representing the blood of the Redeemer. Christ was the way by which patriarchs and prophets were saved. He is the way by which alone we can have access to God." Desire of Ages, p.663.

Speaking of Adam, and this goes for Abel and for patriarchs and prophets, we read, "Faithfully did he repent of his sin and trust in the merits of the promised Saviour, and he died in the hope of a resurrection." The Great Controversy, p.647,8.

Adam was a Christian.

This is the "everlasting Gospel."

sky

[Twilight]

This is the kingdom of God, the kingdom of His grace which Jesus said is "within you." Luke 17:21.

sky

Hey my friend, what does the bible say?

When was the "kingdom of God" established, according to the bible?

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Now is come.

That is a specific event.

At a specific point in time.

Do you have any other bible text that would refute this simple position?

Remember, bible alone...

Mark :-)

[wayfinder]

Revelation 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth."

Daniel 2:44,45 "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people ; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. "Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future ; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy."

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

Despite what EGW says about the seventh trumpet in the G.C. on page 433, the seventh trumpet is yet future. The triumph of the Kingdom of God occurs at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. The fact that the kingdom of God has not triumphed yet is clear, because we would be in heaven now if it had.

[skyblue888]

Mark, when it says, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God," is it not talking about Christ?

"God has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love." Col.1:13.

Christ is the kingdom of God within us.

This is the "kingdom of grace" that was introduced in the garden of Eden, for "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

Mark, Are you suggesting that Christ did not dwell in Adam or Abel or Abraham or the patriarchs and the prophets by the Holy Spirit?

sky

[Twilight]

Mark, when it says, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God," is it not talking about Christ?

"God has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love." Col.1:13.

Christ is the kingdom of God within us.

This is the "kingdom of grace" that was introduced in the garden of Eden, for "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

Mark, Are you suggesting that Christ did not dwell in Adam or Abel or Abraham or the patriarchs and the prophets by the Holy Spirit?

sky

I am asking a simple question at this point Sky.

When was the "kingdom of God" established according to the bible?

Mark :-)

[Martus]

people, even with all the light printed today really don't know much about this Person, the Holy Spirit.

If you recall Saul on the road to Demascus wasn't in prayer and fasting, praying for Him to come upon him.

Jesus Himself CHOOSES whom He bestows this "meeting" of God with man.

It is called "the Spirit of Promise" and is our greatest gift in life while we tary.

I refer it as having a a winning lottery ticket if you please. He seals the person as to the promise of eternal life!

Unfortunatly "few are chosen" which is why so many out there try to qualify their own personal "Holy Spirit" experiences as if it was in fact the Biblical definition. no offense.

This is not a light topic, it deserves respect and its due attention.

[Twilight]

people, even with all the light printed today really don't know much about this Person, the Holy Spirit.

If you recall Saul on the road to Demascus wasn't in prayer and fasting, praying for Him to come upon him.

Jesus Himself CHOOSES whom He bestows this "meeting" of God with man.

It is called "the Spirit of Promise" and is our greatest gift in life while we tary.

I refer it as having a a winning lottery ticket if you please. He seals the person as to the promise of eternal life!

Unfortunatly "few are chosen" which is why so many out there try to qualify their own personal "Holy Spirit" experiences as if it was in fact the Biblical definition. no offense.

This is not a light topic, it deserves respect and its due attention.

Welcome Martus. :-)

What are your thoughts on the subject at hand?

Have you read through the thread?

(Please ignore the off-topic parts).

Mark

[skyblue888]

people, even with all the light printed today really don't know much about this Person, the Holy Spirit.

If you recall Saul on the road to Demascus wasn't in prayer and fasting, praying for Him to come upon him.

Jesus Himself CHOOSES whom He bestows this "meeting" of God with man.

It is called "the Spirit of Promise" and is our greatest gift in life while we tary.

I refer it as having a a winning lottery ticket if you please. He seals the person as to the promise of eternal life!

Unfortunatly "few are chosen" which is why so many out there try to qualify their own personal "Holy Spirit" experiences as if it was in fact the Biblical definition. no offense.

This is not a light topic, it deserves respect and its due attention.

Before we had any chance to do anything, "God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world." Eph.1:4.

Before the foundation of he world, eveyone single one of us was chosen to abide in Christ through the Holy Spirit, no exception.

Yet Jesus said to the Jews, "Many are called but few are chosen." Matt.22:14.

God is no respector of persons. He has made His will known. Each one of us were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. But "few are chosen" only in the sense that the majority will have sinned away their day of grace.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

This is the kingdom of God, the kingdom of His grace which Jesus said is "within you." Luke 17:21.

sky

Hey my friend, what does the bible say?

It says, "The Kingdom of God is within you."

Quote:

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Quote:

When was the "kingdom of God" established, according to the bible?

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Now is come.

That is a specific event.

At a specific point in time.

Do you have any other bible text that would refute this simple position?

I don't think we want to have one portion of Scripture "refuting" another, but, instead, we should look for a position that harmonizes all that the Bible has to say on a subject.

[Twilight]

I don't think we want to have one portion of Scripture "refuting" another, but, instead, we should look for a position that harmonizes all that the Bible has to say on a subject.

Indeed...

The simple point here is that the "kingdom of God" was established when Christ ascended to the Father and Satan was cast down.

Once that was established, the Holy Spirit was given in the upper room.

This was a totally new dispensation because it was tied to the New Covenant:

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

It was at this point that the "indwelling of the Spirit" was given specifically, during the 50 days leading up to pentecost, the early and latter rain..

It was a New Covenant reality.

Then we can notice what the focus of Christ was for the next 40 days.

He taught them something, something He had been teaching them all along, but which they had never received properly.

He was teaching them about:

Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

The kingdom of God.

How it relates individually and how it relates corporately to the church.

Then it was this teaching, this understanding of the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit/Kingdom of God", that Jesus taught.

Why is this important?

Simple.

If we are to experience the latter rain, we have to follow the same process.

We have to be born again, we have to receive the breathing of the Holy Spirit in the upper room.

Then we have to learn about the Kingdom of God.

When we have that, we must pray for the outpouring.

Then the Lord will pour out the Holy Spirit to enable us to take the Gospel to the world.

Mark...

[Twilight]

When we understand that the Kingdom of God, is often a figure for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in the individuals life and in the Body of Christ (the church), scripture takes on new light.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Mark, it was "ratified" at the cross, not established. It had been established from the foundation of the world for Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The cross did not establish it, it only ratified it.

Is there one verse that says that it was "established" at the cross? I am pretty sure there are statements from the SoP that say that it was "ratified" at the cross. It was established even fefore the foundation of the world and ratified at the cross. Jesus was glorified at His ascension. He waited for the Father's approval.

sky

[Twilight]

Mark, it was "ratified" at the cross, not established. It had been established from the foundation of the world for Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The cross did not establish it, it only ratified it.

sky

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

"Now is come..."

This indicates a specific moment in time Sky.

Notice that there was a "loud voice".

Why a "loud voice"?

Because something was being announced.

This was a specific event, so significant that there is a proclamation.

We also then can consider the promise of the New Covenant.

The New Covenant was future in Ezekiel:

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

The dispensation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, was a new experience, at least for the disciples.

They had the Holy Spirit "with them" before, but now it was "in them".

It may be the case that some could have looked forward and received the dispensation by faith, but I have yet to find that in scripture and it is one of the questions that are still unanswered. Enoch and David would be a good argument for that point.

But that does not remove the fact, that the Holy Spirit was given, specifically for the purpose of indwelling the Christian believers, sanctifying them and empowering them after a specific point in time.

But the main point I am making in all of this, is that once we understand this process, we can apply it to ourselves individually and as a body.

1. Accept the merits of Christ.

2. Repent.

3. Receive the breath of life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

4. Learn of the "kingdom of God".

5. Pray for the outpouring of the Spirit.

6. Receive and evangelise.

7. Hasten the Lords coming.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

If the "kingdom of grace" was not introduced in Eden, what is the Gospel then? If the grace of the Holy Spirit was not available after the fall through faith in the merits of a Saviour to come, what then?

Was Abraham, Moses, all the prophets saved by law-keeping or by grace obtained through faith in the merits of the promised Saviour?

According to your understanding, Moses did not have the Spirit dwelling in him? the Spirit was with him but not in Him?

To say that the Spirit could not indwell the believers in Old Testament times or that the disciples of Christ could not receive the Holy Spirit until Jesus was glorified is, from what I understand, both from the Scriptures and the SoP, not bibllically sound. If one was to follow your argument to its logical conclusion, those who lived prior to Christ being glorified were saved by their efforts to keep the law and those who live after Christ being glorified are saved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But this is false because both are saved through faith in the merits of Christ. Those who lived in the Old Testament were saved by exercising faith in the merits of a Saviour to come and we are saved through faith in the merits of a Saviour who has come. The grace of the Holy Spirit (kingdom of God within you) was available in both dispensations except that since Jesus has been glorified the grace of the Holy Spirit is now offered in its fullness.

"The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

sky