When did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:So you're seeing the New Covenant as a dispensational thing? You see it as being something different than the Everlasting Covenant? How do you see that people were saved before the New Covenant era?

M:I am still exploring this, but one thought that comes to mind is that the Old Covenant allowed the "sin - repent" cycle and it could have been through this that people were saved (by faith of course).

In other words, they were saved through the blood of the lamb, but now they are saved through the blood of the lamb and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

My wife uses a term, in Portuguese, "desconfiometro", which is like "detector" where the "detecter" would be like a little voice that represents common sense noticing things which "aren't right." You don't have a "desconfiometro" which tells you what you're saying can't be right? Saved through the blood of the lamb before, but later it's saved through the blood of the lamb plus the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

If the Scriptures are against an idea, it's the idea that there are different ways of salvation.

Quote:

It would fit, but I have not had time to study it out in detail, hence my concentration on the disciples experience.

I think you're going at this completely wrong. You're coming up with some ideas based on taking small, isolated portions of Scripture rigidly, and not considering the big picture on the basis of principles. Get the big picture right, and the principles, and then the details will fit into place. If you just focus on one little section of the picture, with no concept of the picture as a whole, who knows what you'll come up with.

Here are some big picture questions:

1.What is the great problem of man?

2.When did this problem start, and when will it end? (Did it change in the middle?)

3.How is the problem solved?

Satan in constantly seeking to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the true issues of the Great Controversy. These lead to other big picture questions.

1.What is the character of God?

2.How does Satan misrepresent it?

3.How does God counter this misrepresentation?

4.What is the nature of sin?

5.What are the true issues of the Great Controversy?

Also I think it would be helpful to consider the SOP. I understand your desire to base your conclusions solely on Scripture, and it's good to be able to do so, and EGW herself said that if understood the Scriptures, we wouldn't need her. But you're going adrift here, and God has given clear, easy to follow explanations, on these questions that you're asking. When I read her writings on these questions, they all make sense, and are in harmony with what I understand the Scriptures to be saying. When I read your ideas, they lead to theories that my "desconfiotro" says "can't be right."

To be specific here, you are arguing like this:

1.The Holy Spirit wasn't given until Jesus was glorified because Jesus said that the Holy Spirit couldn't be given until He want away.

So you're seeing this as a binary statement that there was the Holy Spirit at one point of time and there wasn't at another, and this point of time was when Jesus Christ was glorified.

There are a couple of ways of interpreting this. One would be in a binary way, that there was no Holy Spirit before time A, but afterwards there was.

Another way is that the Holy Spirit was always there, was always working, but His work was limited, because as long as Jesus was physically present with them, they relied on Him.

Going with your view, the obvious problem is, what about all the people living at the time of Jesus who weren't around Him? Or the people who lived before Him? How could they be saved without the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is the personal presence of Christ, and it is by His indwelling that one is justified and sanctified. So how could anyone be saved if they couldn't be justified or sanctified?

Going on, you stated, and I think correctly, that one receives the Holy Spirit when one is born again. So this again leads to the problem that if one must be born again to receive the Spirit, and the Spirit didn't exist in this capacity until some specific point in time, then no one could have been born again before that point in time. You, recognizing this flaw, have come up with a theory that no one was born again until after this point in time.

This again leads to the same problem as before. If no one was born again before this point in time, how were they saved? How can one be born again without being saved?

To get around this, you've come up with a theory that being born again doesn't mean being saved, but something else, "seeing the Kingdom of God." To support this theory we'd have to suppose that Christ was not concerned with Nicodemus' soul, with his having eternal life, but that he see this kingdom, assuming that seeing this kingdom is something different than being saved (which it must be, since if it weren't, this would lead to the conclusion that no one before the given point in time was saved). But verse 16 makes it abundantly clear that Christ *was* speaking of eternal life, because He said that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So Christ was talking about everlasting life, and to believe in Christ is to be born again is to receive everlasting life.

If you simply look at "Nicodemus" in "The Desire of Ages" this is all very clearly laid out.

Once again, I understand your desire to derive things from Scripture, but without an understanding of the process of Salvation, I don't see how your conclusions can be sound. And, assuming you believe the SOP represents inspired writings, I don't see why you wouldn't at least use these writings as a check, to see if your theories are at least plausible.

[Musicman1228]

When someone asks me for my opinion on any topic on any thread I will not throw it back in their face and say I can't answer because I would be 'off topic'; this is a cheap way to avoid tough questions and tougher answers. It is also rude. What one person calls 'simple truth' another may call a 'simple lie'. Discussions progress and modify based on a collective 'consciousness' as well. Eventually all topics 'peter out' and we all move on to another anyway.

[Twilight]

Quote:

p:So you're seeing the New Covenant as a dispensational thing? You see it as being something different than the Everlasting Covenant? How do you see that people were saved before the New Covenant era?

M:I am still exploring this, but one thought that comes to mind is that the Old Covenant allowed the "sin - repent" cycle and it could have been through this that people were saved (by faith of course).

In other words, they were saved through the blood of the lamb, but now they are saved through the blood of the lamb and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

My wife uses a term, in Portuguese, "desconfiometro", which is like "detector" where the "detecter" would be like a little voice that represents common sense noticing things which "aren't right." You don't have a "desconfiometro" which tells you what you're saying can't be right? Saved through the blood of the lamb before, but later it's saved through the blood of the lamb plus the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

If the Scriptures are against an idea, it's the idea that there are different ways of salvation.

Quote:

It would fit, but I have not had time to study it out in detail, hence my concentration on the disciples experience.

I think you're going at this completely wrong. You're coming up with some ideas based on taking small, isolated portions of Scripture rigidly, and not considering the big picture on the basis of principles. Get the big picture right, and the principles, and then the details will fit into place. If you just focus on one little section of the picture, with no concept of the picture as a whole, who knows what you'll come up with.

Here are some big picture questions:

1.What is the great problem of man?

2.When did this problem start, and when will it end? (Did it change in the middle?)

3.How is the problem solved?

Satan in constantly seeking to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the true issues of the Great Controversy. These lead to other big picture questions.

1.What is the character of God?

2.How does Satan misrepresent it?

3.How does God counter this misrepresentation?

4.What is the nature of sin?

5.What are the true issues of the Great Controversy?

Also I think it would be helpful to consider the SOP. I understand your desire to base your conclusions solely on Scripture, and it's good to be able to do so, and EGW herself said that if understood the Scriptures, we wouldn't need her. But you're going adrift here, and God has given clear, easy to follow explanations, on these questions that you're asking. When I read her writings on these questions, they all make sense, and are in harmony with what I understand the Scriptures to be saying. When I read your ideas, they lead to theories that my "desconfiotro" says "can't be right."

To be specific here, you are arguing like this:

1.The Holy Spirit wasn't given until Jesus was glorified because Jesus said that the Holy Spirit couldn't be given until He want away.

So you're seeing this as a binary statement that there was the Holy Spirit at one point of time and there wasn't at another, and this point of time was when Jesus Christ was glorified.

There are a couple of ways of interpreting this. One would be in a binary way, that there was no Holy Spirit before time A, but afterwards there was.

Another way is that the Holy Spirit was always there, was always working, but His work was limited, because as long as Jesus was physically present with them, they relied on Him.

Going with your view, the obvious problem is, what about all the people living at the time of Jesus who weren't around Him? Or the people who lived before Him? How could they be saved without the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is the personal presence of Christ, and it is by His indwelling that one is justified and sanctified. So how could anyone be saved if they couldn't be justified or sanctified?

Going on, you stated, and I think correctly, that one receives the Holy Spirit when one is born again. So this again leads to the problem that if one must be born again to receive the Spirit, and the Spirit didn't exist in this capacity until some specific point in time, then no one could have been born again before that point in time. You, recognizing this flaw, have come up with a theory that no one was born again until after this point in time.

This again leads to the same problem as before. If no one was born again before this point in time, how were they saved? How can one be born again without being saved?

To get around this, you've come up with a theory that being born again doesn't mean being saved, but something else, "seeing the Kingdom of God." To support this theory we'd have to suppose that Christ was not concerned with Nicodemus' soul, with his having eternal life, but that he see this kingdom, assuming that seeing this kingdom is something different than being saved (which it must be, since if it weren't, this would lead to the conclusion that no one before the given point in time was saved). But verse 16 makes it abundantly clear that Christ *was* speaking of eternal life, because He said that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So Christ was talking about everlasting life, and to believe in Christ is to be born again is to receive everlasting life.

If you simply look at "Nicodemus" in "The Desire of Ages" this is all very clearly laid out.

Once again, I understand your desire to derive things from Scripture, but without an understanding of the process of Salvation, I don't see how your conclusions can be sound. And, assuming you believe the SOP represents inspired writings, I don't see why you wouldn't at least use these writings as a check, to see if your theories are at least plausible.

No one is saying that there was no "Holy Spirit" before Pentecost.

What is being pointed out, is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, was a specific event in the life of the disciples.

At a specific time.

How that reflects on those under the Old Covenant I do not know, because it was only under the New Covenant that the gift of the indwewlling of the Holy Spirit was given.

This is a simple fact derived from scripture as pointed out above.

A simple timeline has been supplied.

If you think that timeline is incorrect, then please show that from scripture.

I stick by the principle of not using the SOP in this study, so please can you make your point from scripture only. :-)

----------------

Here is a question for you Pnat.

How is it that the disciples could perform miracles without being born again?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

When someone asks me for my opinion on any topic on any thread I will not throw it back in their face and say I can't answer because I would be 'off topic'; this is a cheap way to avoid tough questions and tougher answers. It is also rude. What one person calls 'simple truth' another may call a 'simple lie'. Discussions progress and modify based on a collective 'consciousness' as well. Eventually all topics 'peter out' and we all move on to another anyway.

MM, you keep presenting what most of us consider heresy.

Most here have rejected your verdict on the cannon of scripture.

So there is absolutely no point to try to keep presenting the idea that "Paul was an evil prophet of Satan" on every thread.

This thread does not need that conversation all over again. It just blurs the topic.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Another question Pnat.

How do we know that we have to be "born again" to be "saved"?

How do we know they are the exact same "thing"?

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

There is such a thing as the "kingdom of God" which is the kingdom of His grace which is the kingdom of God within us as Jesus spoke of in Luke 17:21 and referred to by Paul in Romans 14:17.

Can we agree on that without muddying the waters?

sky

* I am positive that there is at least one verse in the NT that says, "kingdom of grace" or "kingdom of His grace."

By comparing Scripture with Scripture we have: "preaching the Gospel of the kingdom." Matt.4:23. "to testify to the Gospel of the grace of God." Acts 20:24.

From these two passages, we have the Kingdom of the grace of God.

Right?

I would say here that we have to be strict with the biblical terms Sky.

Our own language and explanations are fine, but if we cannot build a biblical study on them, we should not use them in a study like this.

"The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

Scripture is explained by Scripture.

"Now Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom ." Matt.4:23. "And the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the Gospel of the grace of God." Acts 20:24.

These two passages of Scripture are sufficient to reveal that the Gospel of the Kingdom is the the Gospel of the grace of God. And "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11

The Gospel of the kingdom of grace was introduced immediately after the fall of Adam and Eve. By slaying an innocent lamb, Adam trusted in the merits of a Saviour to come and Christ dwelt in his heart by faith through the Holy Spirit.

"It is through the Spirit that Christ dwells in us; and the Spirit of God, received into the heart by faith is the beginning of eternal life." Desire of Ages, p.388.

Christ dwelt in the heart of Adam just as He dwelt in the hearts of Abraham or Moses or all the prophets, and in the hearts of all who trusted in the merits of the promised Saviour.

When I became a Seventh-day Adventist more than 30 years ago, I remember being confronted by some evangelicals who taught the very same thing that you do here which had led them to believe in two dispensations. To them the Old Testament was the dispensation of law, for, like you,they believed and taught that the Holy Spirit had not yet been given, according to their understanding of John 7:39. And they taught that the New Testament was the dispensation of grace since the grace of the Holy Spirit had now been made available after Jesus was glorified.

Mark, if we believe and teach that Adam, Abraham, or Moses, including all the prophets, or any of the people mentioned in Hebrews 11, did not have the "indwelling" of the Spirit, we are under a delusion!

"The grace (of the Holy Spirit) that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

To all men from Adam to the last man living on this side of general probation.

Of course, not all men have or will accept this grace but nevertheless it was and is still offered to all men, from the very beginning of time until now and that through the merits of a Saviour who was to come and who has come.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

These are the blessings of the New Covenant, the covenant of grace. Adam and Abraham received these blessings in the Holy Spirit as all those who lived and believed in Old Testament times.

The Holy Spirit dwelt in Adam through faith in the merits of the promised Saviour. This he learned to do through the sacrificial system. The only difference is that at Pentecost, when Jesus was glorified, the Spirit came upon each praying disciple with a fullness never experienced before. A.A.37,38.

sky

[skyblue888]

Another question Pnat.

How do we know that we have to be "born again" to be "saved"?

How do we know they are the exact same "thing"?

Mark :-)

Come on Mark! What is up with that? When Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be born again," He certainly meant that no one can be saved unless he is born from above, by the operation of the Holy Spirit. All those who lived after the fall of Adam and maintained their connection with God by trusting wholly in the merits of the promised Saviour, through the sacrificial system, were born again, born of the Spirit. This is the condition for entrance into the Kingdom of glory, whether we lived before or after the crucifixion of Christ.

"The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

sky

[Twilight]

By comparing Scripture with Scripture we have: "preaching the Gospel of the kingdom." Matt.4:23. "to testify to the Gospel of the grace of God." Acts 20:24.

From these two passages, we have the Kingdom of the grace of God.

Right?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Another question Pnat.

How do we know that we have to be "born again" to be "saved"?

How do we know they are the exact same "thing"?

Mark :-)

Come on Mark! What is up with that? When Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be born again," He certainly meant that no one can be saved unless he is born from above, by the operation of the Holy Spirit. All those who lived after the fall of Adam and maintained their connection with God by trusting wholly in the merits of the promised Saviour, through the sacrificial system, were born again, born of the Spirit. This is the condition for entrance into the Kingdom of glory, whether we lived before or after the crucifixion of Christ.

"The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

sky

Then you need to show that from scripture Sky. :-)

Is there any reference to any of the Patriarchs being "born again"?

I am not saying you are wrong, I am just challenging "assertions" without scriptural support.

To establish any point, we have to study these things carefully.

We cannot have any point that is not derived from scripture.

No matter how "obvious" we think it is.

Remember, I am open to the idea that the Patriarchs had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but I do not think that anyone has shown this from scripture yet.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

No one is saying that there was no "Holy Spirit" before Pentecost.

Read in context! In the sense of indwelling. This is what you're claiming, that the Holy Spirit did not indwell people before Christ was glorified.

Quote:

What is being pointed out, is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, was a specific event in the life of the disciples.

At a specific time.

More than this is being claimed. It is being claimed that

a.When one is born again, that's when the Holy Spirit indwells.

b.No one is born again who does not have the indwelling of the Spirit.

c.This indwelling did not begin until Christ was glorified.

d.Therefore nobody was born again until Christ was glorified.

e.Born again has to do with seeing the kingdom of God, not with being saved.

These all seem very clear to me based on what you've written. If you disagree with any of these points, I'd like to know, but this is what I've been understanding you to say or imply.

Quote:

How that reflects on those under the Old Covenant I do not know, because it was only under the New Covenant that the gift of the indwewlling of the Holy Spirit was given.

This is a simple fact derived from scripture as pointed out above.

A simple timeline has been supplied.

If you think that timeline is incorrect, then please show that from scripture.

I stick by the principle of not using the SOP in this study, so please can you make your point from scripture only. :-)

It's clear from both the SOP and Scripture that you've made conclusions that don't hold water, which come from rigid interpretations that lead to more and more untenable positions, such as that before one was saved by the blood of the lamb, but now it's a combination of the blood of the lamb and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It should be obvious that this can't be correct, as, if there's one thing that's clear from Scripture, it's that there aren't multiple ways of salvation depending upon when one lives.

Also your whole approach is wrong, I believe, for the reasons I pointed out. There's no "big picture" perspective, and no "desconfiometro". Well, I went through all this, and wrote it out, which took time to do. There's no need for me to repeat everything, but I think there are helpful comments in what I wrote, if they're heeded.

----------------

Quote:

Here is a question for you Pnat.

How is it that the disciples could perform miracles without being born again?

Why would you ask me this? My contention has been that they were born again (excluding Judas).

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

To say that the Spirit could not indwell... ...the disciples of Christ could not receive the Holy Spirit until Jesus was glorified is, from what I understand, both from the Scriptures and the SoP, not bibllically sound.

"The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

sky

Notice that there are two different experiences.

1. The Spirit with us, calling us to repentance.

2. The Spirit in us, bringing sanctification and the personal presence of Christ.

This is clear from the scripture.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

At this point of John 14:17, it is clear that the disciples did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

They did have the Spirit with them, but not in them.

These points were established earlier in the thread my friend, did you read them?

(I think they were established earlier, if not, I will repost the point). :-)

Mark :-)

Mark, the main reason why the disciples still did not have the indwelling of the Spirit at the beginning of Christ's ministry is because they, like Nicodemus and all of the Jews, had lost sight of the Gospel of the kingdom of grace through faith in the merits of a Saviour to come. By the time Jesus began His ministry, the light of precious truth had totally been lost sight of. They had been blinded by Satan just as we are today. They were slow to learn and ready to forget. They did not understand the condition for entrance into the kingdom of grace which is the condition for entrance into the kingdom of glory. Jesus labored with them with patience until the light began to dawn upon their minds and hearts.

"How the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of the servants of God, that they may not discern the precious truth." 1 S.M.406.

The disciples did receive a measure of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost but they were still slow to learn because all of their lives they had been exposed to the leaven (traditions and false interpretations of Scriptures) of the Pharisees. It wasn't until Pentecost when the Spirit came upon them in His fullness that they began to see things in a totally different light.

So it is today. I believe some of us have the indwelling of the Spirit in "early rain" power but when the Spirit shall come in "latter rain" power, like the disciples of old, many things we have not been able to fully understand and appreciate will then be much better understood and appreciated. So it was with the disciples of Christ in their "early rain" experience in the Holy Spirit. They were still slow to understand because of their preconceived ideas of what constituted "the kingdom of God," ideas they had received at the school of the rabbis but at the school of Christ they slowly accepted the new wine of the teachings of Christ and at Pentecost the Holy Spirit opened their understanding in a way that they had never experienced before. So it will be with the true children of God in these last days.

sky

[Twilight]

Quote:

Read in context! In the sense of indwelling. This is what you're claiming, that the Holy Spirit did not indwell people before Christ was glorified.

I am asking you to show me from scripture where people did have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before the "kingdom of God" was established.

Quote:

a.When one is born again, that's when the Holy Spirit indwells.

b.No one is born again who does not have the indwelling of the Spirit.

c.This indwelling did not begin until Christ was glorified.

d.Therefore nobody was born again until Christ was glorified.

e.Born again has to do with seeing the kingdom of God, not with being saved.

These all seem very clear to me based on what you've written. If you disagree with any of these points, I'd like to know

A, and B I think are pretty clear.

C, D and E are work in progress and are open to discussion.

Quote:

It's clear from both the SOP and Scripture that you've made conclusions that don't hold water, which come from rigid interpretations that lead to more and more untenable positions, such as that before one was saved by the blood of the lamb, but now it's a combination of the blood of the lamb and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

This has just come across to me like this:

"I know the SOP and Bible and you are wrong."

Where is the scripture my friend, please support your views with scriptural reasoning.

The above statement does not supply any doctrine, just a position of "implied authority". :-)

Quote:

Why would you ask me this? My contention has been that they were born again (excluding Judas).

So how could Judas perform miracles if he was not born again?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

I would also lovingly point out pnat and Sky, that if I "was" an evangelical Christian coming to you with these scriptures and your responses were as they have been, I would be disappointed.

Why?

Because you are not supporting your positions from scripture in any "solid" manner.

If you honestly want to correct error in anyones theology, you have to supply the scripture.

If not, then you do a disservice to the name of Seventh Day Adventists!

In love.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

I have supplied Scriptures Mark but you are ignoring them as though they were the figments of my imagination.

Romans 14:17; Luke 17:21; Titus 2:11; Matt.4:23; Acts 20:24 and more.

These passages alone are sufficient to show that "the kingdom of God" is the "Gospel of the kingdom" which is "the gospel of the grace of God" which is another way of saying that "the Kingdom of God is within you."

This Gospel of the Kingdom of grace was introduced to Adam and Eve after the fall. This is the Evelasting Gospel. "It is through the Spirit that Christ dwells in us; and the Holy Spirit received into the heart by faith is the beginning of eternal life." D.A.388.

This is the experience of all who have trusted in the merits of the Saviour whether before or after the cross.

sky

Here is another one: "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be given unto you." Matt.6:33. If you put this passage side by side with Romans 14:17 and Luke 17:20, it is obvious that this is the kingdom of God within us, the kingdom of grace, the kingdom of Christ by the Holy Spirit. The rule of Christ within the heart of the individual believer from Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Moses, from Moses to Christ and from Christ to the end of time. As it was shown the only difference is that since Jesus was glorified, the grace of the Holy Spirit has been "offered in infinite plenitude." A.A.50,37,38.

[Twilight]

Thank you for the quotes Sky. :-)

Quote:

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

That does not remove the principle that the "kingdom of God" was a time limited experience or event.

Quote:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Again, the same point.

What of the point that Jesus made that the Disciples had not yet experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Sky?

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice here the "shall be in you" indicating future tense.

Quote:

Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Again, nothing here that we could insist is "past tense"?

Quote:

Mat 4:23 ¶ And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people

Again, this is simply stating that the "kingdom of God" was being preached.

Not that it had "already" arrived, as we know that it was not until Jesus ascended that it did arrive:

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Quote:

Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Again, this does not deal with the timelines in any shape or form.

It is also not using the terms "kingdom of God/heaven", so it cannot be strictly used as an "interpretation" of those terms.

So I do not see a strong scriptural argument here Sky.

If the patriarchs experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If they experienced the "kingdom of God", like the disciples, then I would like to see that from scripture.

The above scriptures do not state that.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

Here is another one: "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be given unto you." Matt.6:33. Obviously this is the kingdom of God within us, the kingdom of grace, the kingdom of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Agreed. :-)

Quote:

The rule of Christ within the heart of the individual believer whether from Adam to Abraham and from Abraham to Moses and from Moses to Christ and to the end of time.

Scripture please brother. :-)

[skyblue888]

The Scriptures of the Old Testament are replete with passages describing the "new birth" experience. Here are a few of them.

David said, "O Lord, I am Your servant... You have loosed my bonds. I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving. And will call upon the name of the Lord." Psalm 116:16,17.

David also wrote, "You send forth Your Spirit, they are created: And You renew the face of the earth." Psalm 104:30.

"He sent His Word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions." Psalm 107:20.

Christ is the Word by the Spirit.

It is said that Enoch walked with God. Here is a testimony from the Spirit of the Lord to the effect that Enoch was one with Christ.

"His was a wonderful life of oneness. Christ was his companion. He was in intimate fellowship with God." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.1, p.1087.

sky

[skyblue888]

"Create in me a new heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." Psalm 50:10.

This is more than sufficient evidence, is it not?

If David could pray for a new heart which meant to have the presence of God through Christ by the Holy Spirit, Adam could too and all who availed themselves of the merits of the promised Saviour.

sky

[Twilight]

"Create in me a knew heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." Psalm 50:10.

This is more than sufficient evidence, is it not?

If David could pray for a new heart which meant to have the presence of God through Christ by the Holy Spirit, Adam could too and all who availed themselves of the merits of the promised Saviour.

sky

[skyblue888]

Job said, "I put on righteousness and it clothed me; My justice was like a robe and a turban." Job 29:14.

Job was clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness. He was one with Christ. "Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness, says the Lord." Ezekiel 14:14.

"Their righteousness is of Me, says the Lord." Isaiah 54:17.

Not one soul can be clothed with the righteousness of the Lord unless he is born of the Spirit.

sky

[skyblue888]

The disciples of Jesus could have been born of the Spirit even before they met Jesus. They had been blinded by Satan through the false teachings of the Rabbis. The Rabbis themselves should have been the first to be born again, from above, by the indwelling of the Spirit, but they were the first to be blinded by Satan. The new birth was available from the time the Gospel of the kingdom of grace was first institututed after the fall in Eden.

sky

[Twilight]

The disciples of Jesus could have been born of the Spirit even before they met Jesus. They had been blinded by Satan through the false teachings of the Rabbis. The Rabbis themselves should have been the first to be born again, from above, by the indwelling of the Spirit, but they were the first to be blinded by Satan. The new birth was available from the time the Gospel of the kingdom of grace was first institututed after the fall in Eden.

sky

The disciples did not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until the upper room.

It was only then that they could receive it.

They had to physically go through the path we have to go through spiritually.

That then makes their experience so valuable to us. :-)

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

Job said, "I put on righteousness and it clothed me; My justice was like a robe and a turban." Job 29:14.

Job was clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness. He was one with Christ. "Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness, says the Lord." Ezekiel 14:14.

"Their righteousness is of Me, says the Lord." Isaiah 54:17.

Some good texts, thank you. :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The disciples of Jesus could have been born of the Spirit even before they met Jesus. They had been blinded by Satan through the false teachings of the Rabbis. The Rabbis themselves should have been the first to be born again, from above, by the indwelling of the Spirit, but they were the first to be blinded by Satan. The new birth was available from the time the Gospel of the kingdom of grace was first institututed after the fall in Eden.

sky

The disciples did not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until the upper room.

It was only then that they could receive it.

They had to physically go through the path we have to go through spiritually.

That then makes their experience so valuable to us. :-)

Mark :-)

Mark, it is not really important to me as to when they received the Holy Spirit, be it in a small measure or in the fullness, but the fact that they could have received the indwelling prior to the coming of Jesus. They could have been born again before meeting with Jesus if they had properly understood the Gospel of the kingdom of the grace of God through the merits of the promised Saviour, as taught in the sacrificial system.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

p:Read in context! In the sense of indwelling. This is what you're claiming, that the Holy Spirit did not indwell people before Christ was glorified.

T:I am asking you to show me from scripture where people did have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before the "kingdom of God" was established.