When did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

[Musicman1228]

Anyone that has sin in them cannot be 'born again', so from that standpoint I agree with Mark that Peter was not born again. It is my understanding that it is the true work of grace to take a person from where they are in the process of Sanctification (incomplete) at the time of their death to where they need to be to be completely Sanctified and righteous. When these dead in Christ are raised at the 6th Seal they will be sealed in their new natures.

Everyone that is alive at the time when the Great Tribulation will begin with have to become righteous (complete the process of Sanctification) before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. During this time many of the wicked will die having made the decision to not enter that process. Everyone who enters that process will be allow to complete it if they are to die during the Tribulation. Those that are sealed in righteousness before they enter the Great Tribulation are the 144,000 and the Five Wise Bridesmaid (Matt. 25:1-13).

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I am not trying to be rude Pnat, but I have answered all these questions before.

Not rude, but evasive.

You've addressed how the disciples did *not* receive the Holy Spirit (not by faith) and when they received it (when Jesus Christ breathed on them), but not how. I said the only thing I could think of that wasn't by faith would be by inhalation, an idea you didn't appear to agree with, but you suggested no alternative.

The specific question I've been asking, which I don't believe you have answered, is how the disciples received the Holy Spirit. If you believe you've answered this, please tell me in which post you stated this. This is a small thread, so that should be easy to do.

that is a good question pnattmbtc.

if Christ breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit "internally" it had to enter somehow.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Then Peter wasn't born again, right? So you're asserting that Peter, at the time he made his confession of Christ ("upon this rock I will establish my church") was not born again?

No, I do not see how Peter could have been born again at that point.

Because He had not been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Himself is quite plain on this as is John.

The simple chronology shows that, unless I have missed something.

But as I suspect that you think everyone already "has" the Holy Spirit, this will be difficult for you to understand. Correct me if I am wrong?

Do you believe that "everyone" already has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The reason I ask, is I know you are into Waggoners writings and he got caught with drifting into the error of pantheism.

Do you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was a specific event for the disciples Pnat?

(I would really like you to answer this direct question).

Mark

[Guest]

Quote:

pantheism is believing the Holy Spirit is literally inside a person, a tree, a chair.

Pantheism is the belief that God is in everything. Flowers trees etc.

But the belief that he is in people is upheld by both scripture and Ellen White.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.

Nowhere can you find a text that says he is in a tree or a flower etc.

An angel was in a bush one time, for a specific purpose.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Not rude, but evasive.

You've addressed how the disciples did *not* receive the Holy Spirit (not by faith) and when they received it (when Jesus Christ breathed on them), but not how. I said the only thing I could think of that wasn't by faith would be by inhalation, an idea you didn't appear to agree with, but you suggested no alternative.

The specific question I've been asking, which I don't believe you have answered, is how the disciples received the Holy Spirit. If you believe you've answered this, please tell me in which post you stated this. This is a small thread, so that should be easy to do.

that is a good question pnattmbtc.

if Christ breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit "internally" it had to enter somehow.

Then what does the scripture say Teresa?

What detail does it supply to answer this?

I will ask you the same question and invite you to answer it from scripture.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

No, I do not see how Peter could have been born again at that point.

Because He had not been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Himself is quite plain on this as is John.

The simple chronology shows that, unless I have missed something.

But as I suspect that you think everyone already "has" the Holy Spirit, this will be difficult for you to understand. Correct me if I am wrong?

Do you believe that "everyone" already has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The reason I ask, is I know you are into Waggoners writings and he got caught with drifting into the error of pantheism.

Do you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was a specific event for the disciples Pnat?

(I would really like you to answer this direct question).

Mark

265576

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God indeed is in all things, through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Otherwise you have a God that is not omnipresent.

265579

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If the Holy Spirit is everywhere, is He not in every thing?

How can He be "everywhere" if He is not in "every thing"?

265617

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But how can God be everywhere, yet not in some things?[/quote']

My understanding has indeed been refined as I have studied into these matters.

Whilst I recognise that Gods power is possibly in everything, that is not the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in my view..

But you must be very very careful to suggest that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is pantheism Teresa.

Because if it is not, then you are directly opposing the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Pantheism is the belief that an "impersonal God, without distinct personality" is in everything.

That is not the same as believing in the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is in the invidual, that that manifestation is of a personal individual God who brings the awareness of Christ and the very presence of Christ in to us...

The parable of the ten virgins teach us that those that do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within them will be lost.

As to this viewpoint, Mark Finley also shares it in many respects and preaches a number of sermons on the subject.

Have a listen here at audioverse if you are willing:

http://www.audioverse.org/sermons/seriess/243/mark-finley-empowered-by-the-spirit.html

I understand your caution in this matter and we need to be careful with how we represent the Holy Spirit, but also please be extremely careful that you are not opposing Him in this.

That would be the most dangerous ground any Christian could stand on.

I genuinely trembled in fear for you and your salvation, when you suggested the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is pantheism.

Mark :-(

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I surrender!

You mean, "I refuse to answer your questions."

Why? Why will you not answer the simple question of how you think the disciples received the Holy Spirit if not by faith?

Pnatt, the words, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost," "Be filled with the Spirit," are commandments of God. "The words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are life." John 6:63. The disciples received these words as the voice of God speaking to them. They received these words by faith and it was immediately so in them. It is the same with every command that God gives. This is eating His flesh and drinking His blood for our spiritual nature.

The word of God is the breath of God meaning that His word is full of the life of God. It is Spirit and life.

If God says to me, "Receive the Holy Spirit," and I believe that word, immediately the Spirit is imparted. This is the Voice of God speaking to us through the merits of Christ's shed blood.

Does that help? So the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit by "inhaling" Jesus' breath but by believing His word implicitly. Is that what you are after?

sky

[teresaq]

Pantheism is the belief that God is in everything. Flowers trees etc.

Nowhere can you find a text that says he is in a tree or a flower etc.

[Woody]

Thanks teresa. Sound like our prophet is pretty clear on that issue.

[skyblue888]

Pantheism is the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature.

"This is only one of the instances in which I was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.293.

This is false science.

True science teaches that "Nature in her work testifies on the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416.

The Holy Spirit is God's immediate Agency. "By His Spirit He is everywhere present." M.H.417.

The mind of God is "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." See Education, p.14.

"In Him all things consist." Col.1:17.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

p:1.Why would God give the desire to some and not to others, especially in the light of the fact that He presents Himself as not being a respecter of persons?

2.If a person is given the desire, can that desire be resisted?

OS:Why would God? I don't know why God does anything.

[pnattmbtc]

It seems Pnat, you want me to offer an opinion on a detail that is not supplied?

[pnattmbtc]

No, I do not see how Peter could have been born again at that point.

Because He had not been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Himself is quite plain on this as is John.

The simple chronology shows that, unless I have missed something.

But as I suspect that you think everyone already "has" the Holy Spirit, this will be difficult for you to understand. Correct me if I am wrong?

[pnattmbtc]

Pantheism is not the belief that God is in all things, but that God is constituted by the "all things." It's a confusion of the Creator with the created.

[skyblue888]

That's right. "Nature is not God nor was it ever God." However, "Those who have a true knowledge of God will not become so infatuated with the laws of matter or the operations of nature as to overlook or refuse to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature.." 1 S.M.293.

sky

The Bible teaches that "In Christ we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. From the pen of inspiration we read, "All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.301.

"Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397.

"Not only is He the Originator of all, but He is the life of everything that lives. It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, and in the food which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength. It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment. Except as perverted by sin, all His gifts tend to life, to health and joy." Education, p.197,198. (This is eating His flesh and drinking His blood as far as our physical nature is concerned; See D.A.660)

The Word of God says, "In Him all things consist." Col.1:17. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. "God (through Christ by the Spirit) is above all, and through all, and in all." Eph.4:6,10. "Do I not fill heaven and earth, says the Lord." Jer.23:24; Eph.4:6,10.

All of these Bible verses and statements teach that "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416.

"Whatever line of investigation we pursue, with a sincere purpose to arrive at truth, we are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Education, p.14.

Therefore, there is nature the continual working of God through Christ by the Spirit. Thus it is written, "To those who thus acquaint themselves with Christ, the earth will nevermore be a lonely or desolate place. It will be their Father's house, filled with the presence of Him who once dwelt among men." Education, p.130. "Nature testifies of an Intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.'" P.P.114.

Pantheism presents the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all created things, an impersonal force, energy. Mrs. White said, "I was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.293.

If this is what God is, then there is no God at all and this teaching would sweep away the whole Christian economy, as Mrs. White stated in 8 T 291.

The Spirit of God is not an impersonal essence. It is the mind of God. It is an unseen, mighty Intelligence moving in all things according to His will, working in and through all to accomplish the good pleasure of His goodness. "The Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed, causing it to spring into life. Under His care the germ breaks through the case enclosing it and springs up to develop and bear fruit." Ibid, 326.

Thus, "Those who judge of God from His handiwork, and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything." Ibid, 325.

"The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Psalm 11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hand." Eduction, p.132.

This is the true knowledge of God. "Acquaint now yourself with Him" is Go'd's message to mankind. See Education, p.14.

This is the subtle difference betwen pantheistic teachings and the light of precious truth. "But the mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit may discern that it is diverging from the right way. After a while the two are seen to be widely separated." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.291.

sky

[teresaq]

Pantheism presents the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all created things, an impersonal force, energy. Mrs. White said, "I was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.293.

If this is what God is, then there is no God at all and this teaching would sweep away the whole Christian economy, as Mrs. White stated in 8 T 291.

Already there are coming in among our people spiritualistic teachings that will undermine the faith of those who give heed to them. The theory that God is an essence pervading all nature is one of Satan's most subtle devices. It misrepresents God and is a dishonor to His greatness and majesty. {8T 291.1}

Pantheistic theories are not sustained by the word of God. The light of His truth shows that these theories are soul-destroying agencies. Darkness is their element, sensuality their sphere. They gratify the natural heart and give license to inclination. Separation from God is the result of accepting them. {8T 291.2}

Our condition through sin has become preternatural, and the power that restores us must be supernatural, else it has no value. There is but one power that can break the hold of evil from the hearts of men, and that is the power of God in Jesus Christ. Only through the blood of the Crucified One is there cleansing from sin. His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. This power the spiritualistic theories concerning God make of no effect. If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power that is within him. {8T 291.3}

These theories, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They do away with the necessity for the atonement and make man his own savior. These theories regarding God make His word of no effect, and those who accept them are in great danger of being led finally to look upon the whole Bible as a fiction. They may regard virtue as better than vice; but God being removed from His position of sovereignty, they place their dependence upon human power, which, without God, is worthless. The unaided human will has no real power to resist and overcome evil. The defenses of the soul are broken down. Man has no barrier against sin. When once the restraints of God's word and His Spirit are rejected, we know not to what depths one may sink. {8T 291.4}

I am instructed to say to you that it is not best to dwell upon the spiritualistic sentiments, the strange, misleading theories, which have for years been coming in among us. {Ev 623.2}

It is not best to preach on the subject of Pantheism or to read quotations from authors who write on this subject, and the specious, deceptive errors that lead to it. The statements made in Testimonies, volume 8, are sufficient to warn our people to avoid these errors. These statements will do more to enlighten minds than all the explanations or theories that our ministers and teachers may put forth concerning these matters. {Ev 623.3}

[skyblue888]

It simply means that God is not "inherent" to nature or to man or to angels and yet "Without the life of God nature would die." B.C. Vol.1, p.1081. Without the life of God in Christ all men would die, for "In Him we live and move and have our being." But Christ does not dwell in the heart of all men by faith. In most men living and breathing is the only evidence that He is there.

"Not only is He the Originator of all, but He (Christ) is the life of everything that lives." Education, 197.

There was a time when men knew God but they did not like to retain Him in their knowledge. So they deified names. Everything was a god; and there was a god of the wind, and a god of the waves, and a god in the tree, etc etc. Every manifestation of power was a different god. And we have gone on, and the world has gone on, for these hundreds of years, devising names, putting names in the place of God.

Now what true education is, instead of giving these all names in the place of God, and deifying them as if the name did the thing,--cohesion, adhesion, gravity, magnetism, etc, etc, it is to put there the name that is above every name and worship that, and see God there, waiting to be recognized.

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize in nature the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, 100.

See how pantheism resembles the truth, which is the counterfeit:

"I was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.293.

Do you see the difference?

sky

[Twilight]

It simply means that God is not "inherent" to nature or to man or to angels and yet "Without the life of God nature would die." B.C. Vol.1, p.1081. Without the life of God in Christ all men would die, for "In Him we live and move and have our being." But Christ does not dwell in the heart of all men by faith. In most men living and breathing is the only evidence that He is there.

"Not only is He the Originator of all, but He (Christ) is the life of everything that lives." Education, 197.

There was a time when men knew God but they did not like to retain Him in their knowledge. So they deified names. Everything was a god; and there was a god of the wind, and a god of the waves, and a god in the tree, etc etc. Every manifestation of power was a different god. And we have gone on, and the world has gone on, for these hundreds of years, devising names, putting names in the place of God.

Now what true education is, instead of giving these all names in the place of God, and deifying them as if the name did the thing,--cohesion, adhesion, gravity, magnetism, etc, etc, it is to put there the name that is above every name and worship that, and see God there, waiting to be recognized.

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize in nature the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, 100.

See how pantheism resembles the truth, which is the counterfeit:

"I was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.293.

Do you see the difference?

sky

Just to bring you up to speed Sky.

Teresa has presented the view that the promise of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is Pantheism.

These texts obviously refute that:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

It tells us that the Holy Spirit dwells in the "temple".

It then tells us what the temple is, "your body".

It tells us He is "in us" literally.

I think Teresa dose not accept this teaching as being "literal".

Mark

[teresaq]

But Christ does not dwell in the heart of all men by faith. In most men living and breathing is the only evidence that He is there.

"I was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.293.

If this is what God is, then there is no God at all and this teaching would sweep away the whole Christian economy, as Mrs. White stated in 8 T 291.

Already there are coming in among our people spiritualistic teachings that will undermine the faith of those who give heed to them. The theory that God is an essence pervading all nature is one of Satan's most subtle devices. It misrepresents God and is a dishonor to His greatness and majesty. {8T 291.1}

Pantheistic theories are not sustained by the word of God. The light of His truth shows that these theories are soul-destroying agencies. Darkness is their element, sensuality their sphere. They gratify the natural heart and give license to inclination. Separation from God is the result of accepting them. {8T 291.2}

Our condition through sin has become preternatural, and the power that restores us must be supernatural, else it has no value. There is but one power that can break the hold of evil from the hearts of men, and that is the power of God in Jesus Christ. Only through the blood of the Crucified One is there cleansing from sin. His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. This power the spiritualistic theories concerning God make of no effect. If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power that is within him. {8T 291.3}

These theories, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They do away with the necessity for the atonement and make man his own savior. These theories regarding God make His word of no effect, and those who accept them are in great danger of being led finally to look upon the whole Bible as a fiction. They may regard virtue as better than vice; but God being removed from His position of sovereignty, they place their dependence upon human power, which, without God, is worthless. The unaided human will has no real power to resist and overcome evil. The defenses of the soul are broken down. Man has no barrier against sin. When once the restraints of God's word and His Spirit are rejected, we know not to what depths one may sink. {8T 291.4}

I am instructed to say to you that it is not best to dwell upon the spiritualistic sentiments, the strange, misleading theories, which have for years been coming in among us. {Ev 623.2}

It is not best to preach on the subject of Pantheism or to read quotations from authors who write on this subject, and the specious, deceptive errors that lead to it. The statements made in Testimonies, volume 8, are sufficient to warn our people to avoid these errors. These statements will do more to enlighten minds than all the explanations or theories that our ministers and teachers may put forth concerning these matters. {Ev 623.3}

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

It simply means that God is not "inherent" to nature or to man or to angels and yet "Without the life of God nature would die." B.C. Vol.1, p.1081. Without the life of God in Christ all men would die, for "In Him we live and move and have our being." But Christ does not dwell in the heart of all men by faith. In most men living and breathing is the only evidence that He is there.

"Not only is He the Originator of all, but He (Christ) is the life of everything that lives." Education, 197.

There was a time when men knew God but they did not like to retain Him in their knowledge. So they deified names. Everything was a god; and there was a god of the wind, and a god of the waves, and a god in the tree, etc etc. Every manifestation of power was a different god. And we have gone on, and the world has gone on, for these hundreds of years, devising names, putting names in the place of God.

Now what true education is, instead of giving these all names in the place of God, and deifying them as if the name did the thing,--cohesion, adhesion, gravity, magnetism, etc, etc, it is to put there the name that is above every name and worship that, and see God there, waiting to be recognized.

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize in nature the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, 100.

See how pantheism resembles the truth, which is the counterfeit:

"I was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.293.

Do you see the difference?

sky

Just to bring you up to speed Sky.

Teresa has presented the view that the promise of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is Pantheism.

These texts obviously refute that:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

It tells us that the Holy Spirit dwells in the "temple".

It then tells us what the temple is, "your body".

It tells us He is "in us" literally.

I think Teresa dose not accept this teaching as being "literal".

Mark

Well, again we have the choice to agree or disagree with what the Scriptures declare. I have no problem accepting that the truth, even plainly and simply stated in the Bible and in the SoP, often goes against traditional thinking, against the theological grain.

But God has set Himself on record, "Do I not fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord?" Jeremiah 23:24. And the apostle Paul re-echoes the testimony of God: "God who is above all and through all and in you all." Eph.4:6,10.

In Christ, by the Spirit, we live and move and have our being. See Acts 17:28. This is true of all men but it is a sad fact that Christ does not dwell in the hearts of all men by faith. Not all men acknowledge that He is their life, that it is Him who causes their blood to circulate. Please let me share a letter I sent to a certain brother McMahon from Verdict Publications, 19 years ago, dealing with this very topic.

Dear brother McMahon,

On page 168 of your book, "The Myth And The Man," you acurately stated that at the 1901 General Conference, "Waggoner acknowledged that some regarded his views as pantheistic. But he denied the charge."

Then you explained that "his views were not the cruder kind of heathen pantheism which identifies the created thing with the Creator." You further stated that his views were "a more refined pantheism that saw God as immanent in all creation so that the work of God was confused with the work of the creature." Ibid, 168.

It is conceded that Waggoner did not identify the created thing with the Creator. However, as you have correctly pointed out, Waggoner did teach that God is personally present in His works, and that, in your opinion, is a more refined pantheism, confusing the work of God with the work of the creature.

I hope you will not object to my using Ellen White's writings as an authority on this matter, keeping in mind that like the Scriptures, her writings are not subject to any private interpretation, for "The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.42.

In order to arrive at the truth, we must leave our preconceived ideas and opinions at the door of investigation, and compare statement with statement.

In Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.292, the Holy Spirit declares that "The most difficult and humiliating lesson that man has to learn is his own inefficiency in depending upon human wisdom, and the sure failure of his own efforts to read nature correctly." Why? Because "Sin has obscured his vision and of himself he cannot discern in nature God or Jesus Christ whom He has sent."

Notice very carefully that here the Holy Spirit is not saying that man is no longer able to discern that nature is God but that of himself he can no longer discern in nature God or Jesus Christ. There is a vast difference between the two.

"Nature is not God nor was it ever God." But "Those who have a true knowledge of God will not become so infatuated with the laws of matter or the operations of nature as to overlook, or refuse to acknowledge, the continual working of God in nature." 1 S.M.293.

This is what brother Waggoner was teaching. He was presenting the doctrine of a personal God who, by the Spirit, is everywhere present, moving in all things according to His will, just as Mrs. White did.

Waggoner wrote, "Consider for a minute the very idea that in the beginning God did indeed set the universe in motion, but that He then endowed matter with a certain amount of force, and subjected it to certain definite laws, so that everything should run forever after much the same as a clock that has been wound and left to itself." E.J Waggoner, The Gospel in Creation, p.88.

The Holy Spirit, through Mrs. White, stated that this was false science. So Waggoner was right. Take the human body, for example. From the pen of inspiration, we read:

"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God." 1 S.M.294.

Again, from Ministry of Healing, we read:

"The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues to work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God." p.417.

And how is God ever-present? "By His Spirit He is everywhere present." Ibid, 417.

So it is clear that brother Waggoner had the right idea but there were those who did not have enough of the eyesalve to discern what he was saying and hence he was accused of teaching error.

I will pause for now since there is so much more to say on this subject. I will only add that after I presented these things to brother McMahon, 19 years ago, I have never heard from him since!

sky

p.s. Not many understood or appreciated Mrs. White's statements but no one ever dared to accuse her of teaching pantheism and yet she clearly stated, in so many ways, that God by the Holy Spirit is moving in all things according to His will! See M.H.416.

[pnattmbtc]

Very nice.

Waggoner is often accused of as having taught pantheism, presumably as an excuse to disagree with what he taught, as inevitably this is done by people who disagree with him, but I've not seen evidence that this is the case (that Waggoner taught pantheism) unless people try to take literally points which Waggoner obviously intended not be taken that way.

For example, Waggoner spoke of how there is a river of life which flows from the throne of God. He spoke of how the cross is everywhere present. These are a couple of examples which come to mind, but Waggoner explains his meaning, if one wishes to understand what he's saying, as opposed to looking for excuses to not agree with him.

[skyblue888]

Indeed the cross of Christ is everywhere for the curse is everywhere in this world and "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. Since in Him all things hold together and since "He bears all things," it necessarily follows that He, by the Spirit, bears the curse wherever it is found, and where is it not found?

«Although the curse is visible everywhere, ‘Change and decay in all around I see,’ yet things live, and men live. But the curse is death, and no man and no thing in creation can bear death and still live. Christ alone can bear the curse – death – and still live. Therefore, the fact that there is life on the earth and in man, in spite of the curse, is proof that the cross of Christ is everywhere. Every blade of grass, every leaf of the forest, every shrub and tree, every flower and fruit, even the bread that we eat, is stamped with the cross of Christ. In our own bodies is Christ crucified. Everywhere is that cross, and as the preaching of the cross is the power of God, which is the Gospel, so it is that the everlasting power of God is revealed in all the things that He has made. That is ‘the power that worketh in us.’ Rom.1:16-20 and Eph.3:20 compared with 1 Cor.1:17,18, amounts to a plain declaration that the cross of Christ is seen in all the things that God has made – even in our own bodies.» E.J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings, p.64,65.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Just to bring you up to speed Sky.

Teresa has presented the view that the promise of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is Pantheism.

These texts obviously refute that:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

It tells us that the Holy Spirit dwells in the "temple".

It then tells us what the temple is, "your body".

It tells us He is "in us" literally.

I think Teresa dose not accept this teaching as being "literal".

Mark

Well, again we have the choice to agree or disagree with what the Scriptures declare. I have no problem accepting that the truth, even plainly and simply stated in the Bible and in the SoP, often goes against traditional thinking, against the theological grain.

But God has set Himself on record, "Do I not fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord?" Jeremiah 23:24. And the apostle Paul re-echoes the testimony of God: "God who is above all and through all and in you all." Eph.4:6,10.

In Christ, by the Spirit, we live and move and have our being. See Acts 17:28. This is true of all men but it is a sad fact that Christ does not dwell in the hearts of all men by faith. Not all men acknowledge that He is their life, that it is Him who causes their blood to circulate. Please let me share a letter I sent to a certain brother McMahon from Verdict Publications, 19 years ago, dealing with this very topic.

Dear brother McMahon,

On page 168 of your book, "The Myth And The Man," you acurately stated that at the 1901 General Conference, "Waggoner acknowledged that some regarded his views as pantheistic. But he denied the charge."

Then you explained that "his views were not the cruder kind of heathen pantheism which identifies the created thing with the Creator." You further stated that his views were "a more refined pantheism that saw God as immanent in all creation so that the work of God was confused with the work of the creature." Ibid, 168.

It is conceded that Waggoner did not identify the created thing with the Creator. However, as you have correctly pointed out, Waggoner did teach that God is personally present in His works, and that, in your opinion, is a more refined pantheism, confusing the work of God with the work of the creature.

I hope you will not object to my using Ellen White's writings as an authority on this matter, keeping in mind that like the Scriptures, her writings are not subject to any private interpretation, for "The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.42.

In order to arrive at the truth, we must leave our preconceived ideas and opinions at the door of investigation, and compare statement with statement.

In Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.292, the Holy Spirit declares that "The most difficult and humiliating lesson that man has to learn is his own inefficiency in depending upon human wisdom, and the sure failure of his own efforts to read nature correctly." Why? Because "Sin has obscured his vision and of himself he cannot discern in nature God or Jesus Christ whom He has sent."

Notice very carefully that here the Holy Spirit is not saying that man is no longer able to discern that nature is God but that of himself he can no longer discern in nature God or Jesus Christ. There is a vast difference between the two.

"Nature is not God nor was it ever God." But "Those who have a true knowledge of God will not become so infatuated with the laws of matter or the operations of nature as to overlook, or refuse to acknowledge, the continual working of God in nature." 1 S.M.293.

This is what brother Waggoner was teaching. He was presenting the doctrine of a personal God who, by the Spirit, is everywhere present, moving in all things according to His will, just as Mrs. White did.

Waggoner wrote, "Consider for a minute the very idea that in the beginning God did indeed set the universe in motion, but that He then endowed matter with a certain amount of force, and subjected it to certain definite laws, so that everything should run forever after much the same as a clock that has been wound and left to itself." E.J Waggoner, The Gospel in Creation, p.88.

The Holy Spirit, through Mrs. White, stated that this was false science. So Waggoner was right. Take the human body, for example. From the pen of inspiration, we read:

"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God." 1 S.M.294.

Again, from Ministry of Healing, we read:

"The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues to work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God." p.417.

And how is God ever-present? "By His Spirit He is everywhere present." Ibid, 417.

So it is clear that brother Waggoner had the right idea but there were those who did not have enough of the eyesalve to discern what he was saying and hence he was accused of teaching error.

I will pause for now since there is so much more to say on this subject. I will only add that after I presented these things to brother McMahon, 19 years ago, I have never heard from him since!

sky

p.s. Not many understood or appreciated Mrs. White's statements but no one ever dared to accuse her of teaching pantheism and yet she clearly stated, in so many ways, that God by the Holy Spirit is moving in all things according to His will! See M.H.416.

Interesting quotes Sky.

But do you see the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the human body, the same thing as God supplying life to all things.

I do not see it this way.

Why?

Because the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a very literal event that takes place when a believer is "born again".

So I do not possibly disagree that God works in everything to hold it together, but that is not the same as being "indwelt".

I see it as two different manifestations of the work of God.

Your thoughts?

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Well, again we have the choice to agree or disagree with what the Scriptures declare. I have no problem accepting that the truth, even plainly and simply stated in the Bible and in the SoP, often goes against traditional thinking, against the theological grain.

But God has set Himself on record, "Do I not fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord?" Jeremiah 23:24. And the apostle Paul re-echoes the testimony of God: "God who is above all and through all and in you all." Eph.4:6,10.

In Christ, by the Spirit, we live and move and have our being. See Acts 17:28. This is true of all men but it is a sad fact that Christ does not dwell in the hearts of all men by faith. Not all men acknowledge that He is their life, that it is Him who causes their blood to circulate. Please let me share a letter I sent to a certain brother McMahon from Verdict Publications, 19 years ago, dealing with this very topic.

Dear brother McMahon,

On page 168 of your book, "The Myth And The Man," you acurately stated that at the 1901 General Conference, "Waggoner acknowledged that some regarded his views as pantheistic. But he denied the charge."

Then you explained that "his views were not the cruder kind of heathen pantheism which identifies the created thing with the Creator." You further stated that his views were "a more refined pantheism that saw God as immanent in all creation so that the work of God was confused with the work of the creature." Ibid, 168.

It is conceded that Waggoner did not identify the created thing with the Creator. However, as you have correctly pointed out, Waggoner did teach that God is personally present in His works, and that, in your opinion, is a more refined pantheism, confusing the work of God with the work of the creature.

I hope you will not object to my using Ellen White's writings as an authority on this matter, keeping in mind that like the Scriptures, her writings are not subject to any private interpretation, for "The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.42.

In order to arrive at the truth, we must leave our preconceived ideas and opinions at the door of investigation, and compare statement with statement.

In Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.292, the Holy Spirit declares that "The most difficult and humiliating lesson that man has to learn is his own inefficiency in depending upon human wisdom, and the sure failure of his own efforts to read nature correctly." Why? Because "Sin has obscured his vision and of himself he cannot discern in nature God or Jesus Christ whom He has sent."

Notice very carefully that here the Holy Spirit is not saying that man is no longer able to discern that nature is God but that of himself he can no longer discern in nature God or Jesus Christ. There is a vast difference between the two.

"Nature is not God nor was it ever God." But "Those who have a true knowledge of God will not become so infatuated with the laws of matter or the operations of nature as to overlook, or refuse to acknowledge, the continual working of God in nature." 1 S.M.293.

This is what brother Waggoner was teaching. He was presenting the doctrine of a personal God who, by the Spirit, is everywhere present, moving in all things according to His will, just as Mrs. White did.

Waggoner wrote, "Consider for a minute the very idea that in the beginning God did indeed set the universe in motion, but that He then endowed matter with a certain amount of force, and subjected it to certain definite laws, so that everything should run forever after much the same as a clock that has been wound and left to itself." E.J Waggoner, The Gospel in Creation, p.88.

The Holy Spirit, through Mrs. White, stated that this was false science. So Waggoner was right. Take the human body, for example. From the pen of inspiration, we read:

"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God." 1 S.M.294.

Again, from Ministry of Healing, we read:

"The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues to work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God." p.417.

And how is God ever-present? "By His Spirit He is everywhere present." Ibid, 417.

So it is clear that brother Waggoner had the right idea but there were those who did not have enough of the eyesalve to discern what he was saying and hence he was accused of teaching error.

I will pause for now since there is so much more to say on this subject. I will only add that after I presented these things to brother McMahon, 19 years ago, I have never heard from him since!

sky

p.s. Not many understood or appreciated Mrs. White's statements but no one ever dared to accuse her of teaching pantheism and yet she clearly stated, in so many ways, that God by the Holy Spirit is moving in all things according to His will! See M.H.416.

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, as I understand your view, the disciples received the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them. You don't know how this happened, except you think it wasn't by faith, since they were in Jesus' physical presence. You've also said previously that you believe that when one is born again, one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So is it your belief that the disciples were born again when Jesus breathed on them? (i.e., this is the time at which they were born again).