The Law in our Hearts

[Guest]

Quote:

but the desire to seek and serve Him is the critical difference. If we desire to do His will, we shall know of the doctrine.

Quote:

Scripture?

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

[karl]

BTW, Miller rejected more than just the sabbath. He scathingly condemned the group that followed him which condemned all who rejected his dates as being "Babylon"; who taught "soul sleep"; who taught annihilationism. He completely rejected 1844 as being prophetic in any way. He completely rejected every point--including the sabbath--upon which the "pioneers" of SDAism would base their beliefs. That is a lot of "byes" for Miller....

Where did you get all this stuff? I thought Wm Miller was the 1844 MAN. So who was it that actually spurred that Advent movement before 1844? Not Miller? Or did he turn his back on God after 1844?

Any online resources for this?

[teresaq]

Robert thank God none of us are dependant on your understanding of things, or the lack there of, in order to get to heaven.

course it all depends on what ones understanding of the law is.

i personally see it as far deeper than the rather vague, interpreted-according-to-whim, forum rules...

but thats just me.

[Woody]

Our prophet indicated that William Miller is saved despite his poor understanding of the many topics that he was in error with. I think there is a lesson in there somewhere for us. :)

[Guest]

I do believe you're right about that Woody.

[Guest]

Now, as in the time of our Saviour, people build the sepulchers and sound the praises of the dead prophets, while they persecute the living messengers of the Most High. William Miller was despised and hated by the ungodly and unbelieving; but his influence and his labors were a blessing to the world. Under his preaching, thousands of sinners were converted, backsliders were reclaimed, and multitudes were led to study the Scriptures and to find in them a beauty and glory before unknown.—The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, pp. 220, 221.

[Guest]

William Miller will be saved

God suffered him to fall under the power of Satan, the dominion of death, and hid him in the grave from those who were constantly drawing him from the truth. Moses erred as he was about to enter the Promised Land. So also, I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump. {EW 258}

[DrPatti]

Quote:

but the desire to seek and serve Him is the critical difference. If we desire to do His will, we shall know of the doctrine.

Quote:

Scripture?

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

That does not say if "we desire to do His will," we shall know of the doctrine, which is what you said at first. It says, "If any man do His will..." It is quite a different thing to "desire" to do His will and to actually do it.

[karl]

That does not say if "we desire to do His will," we shall know of the doctrine, which is what you said at first. It says, "If any man do His will..." It is quite a different thing to "desire" to do His will and to actually do it.

I think that it says "If any man will do His will." And that first "will" is the willing of the man. The second "will" is the willing of God.

The NIV is thus:

If anyone chooses to do God's will,

American Standard:

If any man willeth to do his will,

Elberfelder:

Wenn jemand seinen Willen tun will

Other translations are similar

[DrPatti]

Originally Posted By: DrPatti

BTW, Miller rejected more than just the sabbath. He scathingly condemned the group that followed him which condemned all who rejected his dates as being "Babylon"; who taught "soul sleep"; who taught annihilationism. He completely rejected 1844 as being prophetic in any way. He completely rejected every point--including the sabbath--upon which the "pioneers" of SDAism would base their beliefs. That is a lot of "byes" for Miller....

Where did you get all this stuff?

[Guest]

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

That does not say if "we desire to do His will," we shall know of the doctrine, which is what you said at first. It says, "If any man do His will..." It is quite a different thing to "desire" to do His will and to actually do it.

Perhaps you should go back and read the text again, because you have just mis-quoted it.

It does not say: "If any man do His will..."

It says: "If any man will do his will..." That means if any man is willing to do his will. Another translation puts it like this:

Joh 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will...(ESV)

Joh 7:17 If any man wants to do his will....(ACV)

Joh 7:17 if any one may will to do His will.....(YLT)

Joh 7:17 If any man is ready to do God's pleasure....(BBE)

Joh 7:17 If any man willeth to do his will...(RV)

[pnattmbtc]

p:The writing of the law on the heart has not to do with the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law.

R:Yes, I know that....Agape is being written in the heart, which in harmony with the last 6 commandments.

p:A tithe is a tenth of our earnings, given as recognition that all that we have comes from the Lord, and as an expression that all monetary goods we have are the Lord's.

R:I disagree with your interpretation....

[DrPatti]

Originally Posted By: DrPatti

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

That does not say if "we desire to do His will," we shall know of the doctrine, which is what you said at first. It says, "If any man do His will..." It is quite a different thing to "desire" to do His will and to actually do it.

Perhaps you should go back and read the text again, because you have just mis-quoted it.

It does not say: "If any man do His will..."

It says: "If any man will do his will..." That means if any man is willing to do his will.

[teresaq]

It does not say: "If any man do His will..."

It says: "If any man will do his will..." That means if any man is willing to do his will. Another translation puts it like this:

Joh 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will...(ESV)

Joh 7:17 If any man wants to do his will....(ACV)

Joh 7:17 if any one may will to do His will.....(YLT)

Joh 7:17 If any man is ready to do God's pleasure....(BBE)

Joh 7:17 If any man willeth to do his will...(RV)

G2309 thelō / ethelō

Thayer Definition:

1) to will, have in mind, intend

1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

1b) to desire, to wish

1c) to love

1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

1d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Part of Speech: verb

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138

Citing in TDNT: 3:44, 318

personally i prefer the reading "to will". it gives the idea of putting ones will on the side of God.

what do you think?

[Guest]

So it is only about "wanting" to do His will?

Not about actually DOing it?

That would mean that actually keeping the commandments is not really necessary. We only have to "desire" to do them. Right? That seems to be your point.

Either you're putting the cart before the horse, or you are totally misunderstanding the text. Maybe a little of both.

Obviously you can't do God's will if you don't know what it is yet. All the text is saying is that if you are studying God's word because you have a desire to know God's will so you can do it. Then you will be shown what it is. But if you have no desire to do God's will, you may study all day, and not be shown or be able to see it.

[DrPatti]

Originally Posted By: DrPatti

So it is only about "wanting" to do His will?

Not about actually DOing it?

That would mean that actually keeping the commandments is not really necessary. We only have to "desire" to do them. Right? That seems to be your point.

Either you're putting the cart before the horse, or you are totally misunderstanding the text. Maybe a little of both.

Obviously you can't do God's will if you don't know what it is yet. All the text is saying is that if you are studying God's word because you have a desire to know God's will so you can do it. Then you will be shown what it is. But if you have no desire to do God's will, you may study all day, and not be shown or be able to see it.

[Guest]

And I think you are putting to much limitation on the text because of the context. The way I see it, He was not just talking to the Jews. He was looking down to the end of time, and He knew all who would read those words. So not only was He talking to the Jews, but He was talking to me and you.

[DrPatti]

And I think you are putting to much limitation on the text because of the context.

[Guest]

I didn't add anything to it. So you believe what Jesus said right there only applies to the Jews that were there?

[Guest]

You started off by saying:

"That does not say if "we desire to do His will"

Now that you've been shown to be wrong about that, because that's exactly what it does say, now you're trying to say it doesn't apply to us. But I submit to you that the word "ANYONE" applies to anyone. Including you.

17 If anyone wants to do His will (HCSB)

[DrPatti]

You started off by saying:

"That does not say if "we desire to do His will"

Now that you've been shown to be wrong about that, because that's exactly what it does say, now you're trying to say it doesn't apply to us.

[John317]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: but the desire to seek and serve Him is the critical difference. If we desire to do His will, we shall know of the doctrine.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Quote:

DrPatti: That does not say if "we desire to do His will," we shall know of the doctrine, which is what you said at first. It says, "If any man do His will..." It is quite a different thing to "desire" to do His will and to actually do it.

You're quoting the verse incorrectly. It says, "If any man will do his will, " not "If any man do his will." There's a difference, as shown in the analysis below:

Close examination of the original language shows that the first "will" is the verb, thelo (Strongs # 2309), meaning "to exercise the will, to be willing, to be inclined, to choose, to intend, to wish." In Gal. 4: 20, it is translated, "wishing." In Matt. 17: 4, it means "to be willing." Luke 1: 62, "to choose." Romans 13: 3, "to be inclined, disposed."

The second "will" is the noun, thelhma (Strong's #2307) and means "will, purpose, design." In this verse, it refers to the will, or sovereign pleasure, of God.

John Darby's literal translation:

"If any one desire to practice his will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is of God..."

This means that whoever is willing to find out God's will and to act on it, will surely know the reality of Jesus' teaching about Himself and His work. Here Jesus faces man with the necessity of submitting his human will to the will of God. cf. 1 John 2: 17.

Contemporary English Version: "If you really want to obey God, you will know if what I teach comes from God or from Me."

Goodspeed: "Anyone who resolves to do His will will know whether my teaching comes from God, or originates with me."

NIV, "If anyone chooses to do God's will..."

All of the above are good, acceptable translations. Richard was therefore right in his statement.

Jesus' point is not that we must first be doing God's will before we can know whether Christ's message is true or not, but rather that we must first have a sincere and honest desire to practice God's will.

[DrPatti]

Quote:

It is not a matter of knowing "doctrine," but of knowing that Jesus Christ was/is "the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

That would be the core value of the christians life or should be. If not, how can we be followers of Christ? Knowing doctrine or even following it accomplishes little with out the 'knowing'.

Seems to be an avoidance of this and some rather 'picky' stuff about......Hmmmm?

[DrPatti]

Quote:

It is not a matter of knowing "doctrine," but of knowing that Jesus Christ was/is "the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

That would be the core value of the christians life or should be. If not, how can we be followers of Christ? Knowing doctrine or even following it accomplishes little with out the 'knowing'.

Seems to be an avoidance of this and some rather 'picky' stuff about......Hmmmm?

Cults are built upon "picky stuff."

[Guest]

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.