Is lying a sin no matter the situation?

[Tom Wetmore]

I get the distinct impression that you didn't really read the Scripture in question, or at least not too carefully.

It is quite clear that Moses was telling Pharoh precisely what God told him to say. This wasn't an idea made up in Moses' mind. God told him to mislead Pharoh.

As for the story of the mislead man of God, you seem to have wandered off in another direction... and missed the point.

[Felix Florimon]

God told him to mislead Pharoh.

[hfsturges]

A couple of thoughts about a Christian and lying:

Remember Bill Gothard? He would say that you must never lie, but you may need to be creative in your answers!

In Corrie ten Boom, they had a hiding place for Jews, and a trap door under the dining room table. The Nazis burst in and demanded if they were harboring any Jews. One of the young girls said, "Yes!" "Where?" "Under the kitchen table!" followed by gales of laughter.

The Nazis embarrassed retreated without even looking!

Corrie's sister, Betsy (I think) could not lie. When confronted by the Nazis, she could only tell the truth. As a consequence, she was never imprisoned, and the Jews who were found were not hurt.

The basic aspect of the Christian and lying, is that to lie is to take the matter into our own hands (old covenant?). To tell the truth, even if it hurts, is to put the issue into the hands of God. He will have a better answer than we do.

[teresaq]

A couple of thoughts about a Christian and lying:

Remember Bill Gothard? He would say that you must never lie, but you may need to be creative in your answers!

In Corrie ten Boom, they had a hiding place for Jews, and a trap door under the dining room table. The Nazis burst in and demanded if they were harboring any Jews. One of the young girls said, "Yes!" "Where?" "Under the kitchen table!" followed by gales of laughter.

The Nazis embarrassed retreated without even looking!

Corrie's sister, Betsy (I think) could not lie. When confronted by the Nazis, she could only tell the truth. As a consequence, she was never imprisoned, and the Jews who were found were not hurt.

that very sister died in a prison camp, where they were all taken when betrayed by one particular officer...if i remember correctly they were hiding jews at the time and of course what happened to jews during that time, happened to those.

[teresaq]

However, I just wish to bring another point to our attention; this is that if God wishes us to learn trust in Him,...

i agree with this if we are lying to save our own skins.

[teresaq]

"Thou shalt not bear false witness."

[oldsailor29]

Teresa - it seems that no one wanted to know that.

[skyblue888]

"Clothed with the righteousness of Christ, you will not depend upon what you can do or what you will do."

Does not that mean that no matter what the situation a true Christian finds himself in, because he is filled with the Spirit of Christ he will not have to worry about what answer he shall give to those who ask of him. The answer will be given him when he needs it and it will be the right answer.

sky

[Twilight]

The commandment tells us that we should not lie.

Maybe the question we should be asking is:

Why would anyone feel the need to question such a simple commandment?

[teresaq]

Teresa - it seems that no one wanted to know that.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Teresa - it seems that no one wanted to know that.

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

"Clothed with the righteousness of Christ, you will not depend upon what you can do or what you will do."

Does not that mean that no matter what the situation a true Christian finds himself in, because he is filled with the Spirit of Christ he will not have to worry about what answer he shall give to those who ask of him. The answer will be given him when he needs it and it will be the right answer.

good point sky. one of those "simple" ones.

also tends to avoid slinging insults back and forth.

Yes

"A soft answer (from the Spirit of Christ within) turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, but the mouth of the fools pours forth foolishness." Prov.15:1,2.

[Gerr]

When one reads the whole experience of Israel before getting to the Promised Land' date=' one reaches the conclusion that many of them left in a physical way the land of Egypt; however, Egypt was always in their heart. If God created us, then we have to assume that He knows us better than we now ourselves. God’s final plan was to take Israel out of Egypt. However, we know that after all the miracles God made in order to take them out of Egypt, after giving them food in the dessert, “by day the Lord went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way, and by night a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or by night” (Exodus 13:21), in spite of all that, they were very unhappy when they thought of all the commodities and the food they enjoyed in Egypt. Now, do you really believe that God’s knowledge about Israelites’ attachment to a pagan kind worship and to the plenty of food they enjoyed in Egypt was so limited the God was really asking Moses to mislead Pharaoh in order to take the whole nation out without any kind psychological or spiritual preparation before finally leaving the land of Egypt?

I don’t believe that God is ever willing to mislead us. He knows our limitations; he doesn’t ask us more than we can do. However, He has higher goals for us; When we do what He asks for, we get prepared to carry out those higher goals. Now, when God has higher goals for me and He asks me to do smaller tasks, it doesn’t mean that He is misleading me. It means that He is preparing me for a higher goal that I might not be able to accept at an earlier time. The same love that God has for me is the same love that He had for Pharaoh, Moses and Abraham. We are the ones who decide what we are going to do with God’s love. Moses, Abraham, Pharaoh, any atheist and myself have different outcome on how God’s love is manifested in our lives based on our own decisions.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

As for the story of the mislead man of God, you seem to have wandered off in another direction... and missed the point.

[/quote']

Consider this other option as a possible explanation to what seems like an intention to mislead on God's part.

Had God told Moses to tell Pharaoh that the Israelites were leaving for good, he would not have permitted them to leave for sure. But by by giving pharaoh 3 days into the desert and even giving the impression that they would come back and even refusing that, showed his perversity and his intention to enslave the Israelites forever. IOW, if Pharaoh refused the minimum request, there is no way he would accede to the maximum.

[hfsturges]

It has been some years since I read "Hiding Place."

I distinctly remember her comments about a sister who "couldn't lie" even to protect Jews. And this sister was not imprisoned. You are probably right, it wasn't Betsy.

[Gerr]

The commandment tells us that we should not lie.

Maybe the question we should be asking is:

Why would anyone feel the need to question such a simple commandment?

Because a very important part of the commandment is being left out, i.e. "AGAINST thy neightbor!"

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The commandment tells us that we should not lie.

Maybe the question we should be asking is:

Why would anyone feel the need to question such a simple commandment?

Because a very important part of the commandment is being left out, i.e. "AGAINST thy neightbor!"

So it is okay to lie to someone who is not "my neighbour"?

Did Jesus not state that everyone is our "neighbour"?

This argument then falls flat, as there is no-one who is not my neighbour therefore, no-one who it is okay to lie to.

But the question is, why would we want to "reserve the right" to lie?

Mark :-)

[oldsailor29]

The commandment tells us that we should not lie. Maybe the question we should be asking is:

Why would anyone feel the need to question such a simple commandment?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The commandment tells us that we should not lie. Maybe the question we should be asking is:

Why would anyone feel the need to question such a simple commandment?

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Because a very important part of the commandment is being left out, i.e. "AGAINST thy neightbor!"

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So it is okay to lie to someone who is not "my neighbour"?

Did Jesus not state that everyone is our "neighbour"?

This argument then falls flat, as there is no-one who is not my neighbour therefore, no-one who it is okay to lie to.

But the question is, why would we want to "reserve the right" to lie?

Mark :-)

We have the neighbor in there. Now look at the other part. The idea of bearing false witness against someone is not the same as lying to someone. If I lie to you, it is not the same as lying against you. It is the lying against you which is a sin if you are my neighbor. If I tell a lie about you which flatters you, that would not be a sin. Oh, and by the way, Jesus did not say that everyone is our neighbor. He was very clear as to who is our neighbor. Our neighbor is any person who will help us when we are down. (remember the good Samaritan?) That was the answer Jesus gave to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" Then Jesus also encouraged everyone to be neighbors, like the good Samaritan. Did everyone follow that instruction? No! Most people do not, so most people are not our neighbors.

So the commandment is not as simple as some want to believe.

and Mark, one good reason to know the elements of the commandment is so Satan cannot falsely accuse you of a sin, when it is clearly not a sin.

So are you saying God is a liar in certain circumstances then Oldsailor?

[Woody]

I think we can show a little more respect to Oldsailor than that ... don't you think :)

[Guest]

I think we can show a little more respect to Oldsailor than that ... don't you think

Respect? What do you know about respect?

Hi woody. Old pal, ol friend of mine.

[Twilight]

There was nothing disrespectful to Oldsailor in that last post.

If you think there was, please report it to the moderator.

Mark

[Dr. Rich]

Oldsailor's reply was right on point and I could not have said it any better! Has anyone here ever had someone testify falsely against you in court before? I have, and that is what the commandment is all about! Calling God a liar is testifying falsely against Him. Also, telling others that the whole bible is the word of God is also testifying falsely against Him--IF anything in the bible is NOT the word of God. This is a serious issue! Therefore, may I suggest that we refrain from doing this since we clearly do not know? Only God knows for sure!

[Woody]

There was nothing disrespectful to Oldsailor in that last post.

If you think there was, please report it to the moderator.

Mark

I stopped being a tattle tale long ago. I think we are all adults here and should behave as such.

[Twilight]

Sent privately.

Mark :-)

[Woody]

HA HA HA HO HO HO HE HE HE

ignore it I will :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I didn't think Mark's post was disrespectful to OldSailor, but I *did* think it was disrespectful to God to suggest that He is a liar.