So why is it?

[Neil D]

Sorry to not care about the Christmas discussion, but, on the original topic, I am wondering if anyone besides me believes that men do, in fact, engage in conspiracies? How is it that people could be so naive as to believe that men conspire?

Conspire to do what? That is the question...

...If you think that "they" are out to mind control people.... What fun is that? Every single "James Bond" movie deals with global domination or mind control....And those movies were mindless blow ups but even they could see that the idea of global mind control was simply sadistic stupidity....

Now, if you think that they want to sell more things and get more money in relation to pushing thier product? Yes...but if they do, that is a far far smaller conspiracy than global domination. The documentation of the Tobacco Industry shows that they were out to control thier product....

[doug yowell]

Sorry to not care about the Christmas discussion, but, on the original topic, I am wondering if anyone besides me believes that men do, in fact, engage in conspiracies? How is it that people could be so naive as to believe that men conspire?

Do men conspire, behind closed doors, to foist their will upon the public? Do they succeed? What is a coup d'etat? Why would we have such a term if this never happens?

Personally, I have never met a normal person who actually believed in a real conspiracy.

Signed,

Malachi Martin

P.S. Merry Christmas

[Woody]

Quote:

Merry Christmas

And to all a good night.

HO HO HO HE HE HE HA HA HA

[Stan]

would

Col 2-16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

have anything to do with what ever holidays someone wants to celebrate

[Woody]

would

Col 2-16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

have anything to do with what ever holidays someone wants to celebrate

Well ... I do agree with the not judging the food or drink. So, I guess I could also go along with the festivals and new moons etc. :)

[doug yowell]

Sorry to not care about the Christmas discussion, but, on the original topic, I am wondering if anyone besides me believes that men do, in fact, engage in conspiracies? How is it that people could be so naive as to believe that men conspire?

Do men conspire, behind closed doors, to foist their will upon the public? Do they succeed? What is a coup d'etat? Why would we have such a term if this never happens?

Karl, I'm very disappointed that you, of all people, would fall for that conspiracy nonsense. It's just plain silly!!

Signed,

Osama bin Laden

[phkrause]

Flo I appreciated all your posts. Even though I don't necessarily agree with your thoughts. I think Stan had a much better verse that he posted.

For me I think were it not for the Jews we would not have had any holidays. Its because of them that many Christians wanted other days of worship and holidays to celebrate, because they didn't want to be persecuted as the Jews were.

pk

[Pickie Chickie]

You all are trying to say that there is no such thing as "Conspiracy theories", that our government doesn't conspire secretly behind closed doors?

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Wasn't it a government who conspired behind closed doors to KILL JESUS? And who was behind that? Certainly not God but Satan himself! And you all think that Satan isn't working today to cause the deaths of Christians?

[Pickie Chickie]

Osama bin Laden[a] is the leader of al-Qaeda and is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States embassies, Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. Bin Laden and al-Qaeda are responsible for the October 12, 2000, attack on the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen, which killed 17.

Although bin Laden later appeared on the first publicly released FBI Most Wanted Terrorists list on October 10, 2001, he was listed there for the 1998 embassy attack, and not for his alleged role in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people, because the most wanted lists name fugitives charged with a crime by a prosecutor or under indictment by a grand jury.

Bin Laden was named as an "unindicted co-conspirator" in, for instance, the federal indictment against convicted terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui, but has not been formally indicted for his role in the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Osama bin Laden is the subject of a $50 million[17] reward through the State Department's Rewards for Justice program targeting international fugitives, especially terrorists, plus $2 million through a program developed and funded by the Air Line Pilots Association and the Air Transport Association.[a][18][19]

Why hasn't Bin Laden been indicted yet if the US government is so sure he was involved? Because there is NO proof!

SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Ten_Most_Wanted_Fugitives

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Sorry to not care about the Christmas discussion, but, on the original topic, I am wondering if anyone besides me believes that men do, in fact, engage in conspiracies? How is it that people could be so naive as to believe that men conspire?

Conspire to do what? That is the question...

One thing at a time, Neil. First we have to establish that men are capable of conspiring and have, in fact, conspired.

If you will admit that this has happened, we can move on to discuss specific conspiracies. If all you want to do is make fun of people who seem to be a little more knowledgeable about the human tendency to conspire, there is no need to take the discussion any further.

Do you believe in conspiracies, Neil? Do you believe people have, and are likely to, engage in conspiracies?

If not, why do you think we have laws against, say, "conspiracy to defraud?"

[phkrause]

You all are trying to say that there is no such thing as "Conspiracy theories", that our government doesn't conspire secretly behind closed doors?

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Wasn't it a government who conspired behind closed doors to KILL JESUS? And who was behind that? Certainly not God but Satan himself! And you all think that Satan isn't working today to cause the deaths of Christians?

Haven't seen one post saying there are no conspiracy theories. Just that people are so willing to jump on any CT. Your taking it way to personal. And lets say that every theory is correct. What do you think can be done to stop one of them?

pk

[doug yowell]

Karl, I need to go on record as saying that I do NOT believe that people are likely to engage in conspiracies!!

Sincerely yours,

John Wilkes Booth

[SivartM]

Yes, doug, I think you've done a fine job of satirizing the beliefs of nobody in this discussion. Thank you for your contribution.

Just because some conspiracies exist, that does not mean that everything is a conspiracy. As has been said, most of the popular conspiracy theories are just meant to distract us from Satan's conspiracy. Once you start believing everything the conspiracy "experts" tell you, you can't trust anyone, and you can't listen to any dissenting sources, and you have to convert everyone to your conspiracy theories. It's really not unlike a cult. I don't really see any reason for Christians to freak out because someone told them that the government is trying to kill everyone (for... some reason...).

[doug yowell]

Yes, doug, I think you've done a fine job of satirizing the beliefs of nobody in this discussion. Thank you for your contribution.

Just because some conspiracies exist, that does not mean that everything is a conspiracy. As has been said, most of the popular conspiracy theories are just meant to distract us from Satan's conspiracy. Once you start believing everything the conspiracy "experts" tell you, you can't trust anyone, and you can't listen to any dissenting sources, and you have to convert everyone to your conspiracy theories. It's really not unlike a cult. I don't really see any reason for Christians to freak out because someone told them that the government is trying to kill everyone (for... some reason...).

Ya mean, "Men's hearts failing them for fear?

[Bravus]

I'm delighted to concede that point that yes, conspiracies do occur. Once we have that out of the way, we need to look at the actual evidence for any actual conspiracy (and, as a broader point, given the general incompetence of governments on all sorts of fronts, on the plausibility of multi-decade conspirators being competent enough not to be revealed (or, interestingly, incompetent enough to be revealed just a little bit, enough that conspiracy theorists know but no-one else)).

In looking at evidence, we also need to be aware of 'confirmation bias' - the strong human tendency to believe evidence that supports our assumptions and ignore evidence that challenges them.

What evidence do you think would lead Pickie Chickie to believe that 9/11 went down exactly as the mainstream account goes: terrorists flew planes into buildings which then collapsed? Is there *any* evidence that can convince her of that? I don't think so, because part of the scheme is that the conspirators would try to fake very convincing evidence to cover their tracks.

The same is true for all sorts of conspiracy theories, on both the left and the right. Confirming evidence is embraced, disconfirming evidence is discounted.

In answer to Stan's original question, which I took to be focused more specifically on Christian believers, since that's our focus here, I have three answers. They aren't a sequence that form an argument, they're three individual factors.

1. Christians know evil is abroad in the world, they know evil has plans for the world. They assume that evil is cunning (which seems only to be true sometimes) and likes to work in hidden ways, so the notion that evil men are conspiring behind closed doors to do evil is inherently believable to Christians.

2. For SDAs specifically, our traditional prophetic framework very strongly lends itself to conspiracy theory, with the Papacy viewed as one of these malevolent networks, and notions about world government (which are completely implausible given Daniel 2, but there ya go) and apostate protestantism and America's role in prophecy. It pretty much sets us up for Jesuits and Masons and Rosicrucians, oh my!

3. And here's the pilloriable one: Creationism requires those who believe in it to deny large parts of science, and seems to cause them to believe that science itself is an evil conspiracy to destroy religious faith. Once you're there, the scientific evidence that debunks a conspiracy theory is easy to dispose of. You've flexed your 'not believing in the evidence from the world around you' muscles enough that it becomes easy to accept anything and believe anything, no matter what the evidence says.

Have fun with it.

[doug yowell]

In answer to Stan's original question, which I took to be focused more specifically on Christian believers, since that's our focus here, I have three answers. They aren't a sequence that form an argument, they're three individual factors.

1. Christians know evil is abroad in the world, they know evil has plans for the world. They assume that evil is cunning (which seems only to be true sometimes) and likes to work in hidden ways, so the notion that evil men are conspiring behind closed doors to do evil is inherently believable to Christians.

2. For SDAs specifically, our traditional prophetic framework very strongly lends itself to conspiracy theory, with the Papacy viewed as one of these malevolent networks, and notions about world government (which are completely implausible given Daniel 2, but there ya go) and apostate protestantism and America's role in prophecy. It pretty much sets us up for Jesuits and Masons and Rosicrucians, oh my!

3. And here's the pilloriable one: Creationism requires those who believe in it to deny large parts of science, and seems to cause them to believe that science itself is an evil conspiracy to destroy religious faith. Once you're there, the scientific evidence that debunks a conspiracy theory is easy to dispose of. You've flexed your 'not believing in the evidence from the world around you' muscles enough that it becomes easy to accept anything and believe anything, no matter what the evidence says.

I tend to agree with your first 2 points only it seems that the Christian's knowledge of evil and SDA prophetic insight, both based in Scripture, should be a strong hedge AGAINST a conspiracy mindset.As for #3, the nature of the question can just as easily lead "science" to believe in a religious conspiracy to reject their "evidence"(where have I heard that before?).And don't worry about Jesuits.We've already identified Woody! Strange. Real conspiracies seem to not stay secret for very long.And Stan was referring to normal intelligent people, does that exclude non-Christians?

[Bravus]

I think confirmation bias applies to everyone. And existing prejudices of whatever kind prepare the ground. Catholics, Jews, bankers, right-wingers, left-wingers, Muslims... whoever you fear you'll be all too willing to believe they're conspiring.

[Bravus]

And yep, scientists are susceptible to confirmation bias too. But science has *methods* for testing ideas, and when science is done properly it will correct these biases. That's kind of what it's *for*.

[karl]

Yes, doug, I think you've done a fine job of satirizing the beliefs of nobody in this discussion. Thank you for your contribution.

Just because some conspiracies exist, that does not mean that everything is a conspiracy. As has been said, most of the popular conspiracy theories are just meant to distract us from Satan's conspiracy. Once you start believing everything the conspiracy "experts" tell you, you can't trust anyone, and you can't listen to any dissenting sources, and you have to convert everyone to your conspiracy theories. It's really not unlike a cult. I don't really see any reason for Christians to freak out because someone told them that the government is trying to kill everyone (for... some reason...).

Sivart, you have generally done a pretty good job of staying out of these kinds of over-generalizations. The question is whether conspiracy theories should be examined. Your taking it to the wall like you did above, doesn't come right out and say that everyone who looks for evidence of conspiracy is a lunatic, but it implies it.

There have been some famous conspiracies. They center around money and power. It is logical that big money and big power would be a lure for conspirators.

The following famous expression stems from a conspiracy for power in the most powerful government on earth. "Et tu, Brutus?"

[Bravus]

OK, fair enough. Any particular specific ones you'd like us to look at the evidence for, karl?

[Narcah]

I would tend to say that a guy named Madoff or something like that had a huge conspiracy going on... Perhaps even people inside the regulating comittees had something to do with it? He was reported like a dozen times, yet nothing was done until...

[jasd]

>>"Pascha" means Passover, aka. the time when Jesus died (14th of Nisan on the Hebrew calendar).<<

Indeed, however, does that ‘fact’ nullify my observation, following?

Quote:

Quote:jasd

“Pascha” notwithstanding, isn’t there at least a bit of ambiguity to the texts of Acts 12: 3,4?—and that “Easter” is really the correct translation?[underlined, mine]

>>Easter has nothing to do with Jesus' death.<<

I’ve not made that argument; however, though the KJV translators translated the NT “Pascha” as Passover 28 times – they correctly translated “Pascha” in the one instance of Acts 12:4 "Easter" – as indicated by contextual usage: specifically, as correlate to verse 3.

>>It's celebrated at a different time,<<

Indeed; is that good or bad?

>>...with traditions that are completely pagan.<<

Pagan, in its least pejorative – is simply rustic or peasant – generally speaking, the poor. (Some what says, that Solomon’s Temple incorporated aspects of heathen temples – for instance, the pillars marking the solstices and the equinoxes. Solomon’s Temple seems to have been a facsimile of the Phoenician temples Hazor and that at Tell Tainat – both predating Solomon’s - and what was with the two winged creatures that filled the Holy of Holies?)

>>Some years Passover and Easter are around the same dates (like this year), however, other years they can be an entire month apart.<<

Oy, oy, oy.

>>So, you are right, we are to use them to determine when these "Appointed Times" are. However, we should use the Bible to determine these times, not man-made rules nor the use of equinoxes or solstices like the pagans use.<<

Indeed, and that entails reconciling all the several different calendars, yes?

>>Jesus, the disciples and the early church never celebrated Easter.<<

Indeed, it was such as Herod Agrippa of Acts 12...

>>They did, however, celebrate Passover.<<

...which was, even then, fading into obsolescence for the NT Xtian community – per Writ.

>>It wasn't until many years later that they changed Passover to Easter, and of course, the Sabbath to Sunday as well.<<

Isn’t it the argument of the .Org that such as the celebration of Pasch – was nailed to the cross?

>>See quotes below.

“The earliest Christians celebrated the Lord's Passover at the same time as the Jews, [...]

“A whole body of ‘Against the Jews’ literature was produced by leading Fathers who defamed the Jews [...] the repudiation of the Jewish reckoning of Passover and adoption of Easter-Sunday instead. Joachim Jeremias attributes such a development to ‘the inclination to break away from Judaism.’ In a similar vein, J.B. Lightfoot explains that Rome and Alexandria adopted Easter-Sunday to avoid ‘even the semblance of Judaism’”

- Samuele Bacchiocchi, God's Festival in Scripture and History, 1995, pp. 101-103<<

Ahh, the sigilism of Papal conspiracy.

How are the above quotes relevant to today’s Xtian?—isn’t it really a non-issue? Are you proposing that today’s Xtian observe the Jewish Pasch?

Xtians, rightly so, celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ and a New Testament; whereas, noting, it is Jews who continue to embrace, by and large, OT traditions/observances.

[jasd]

>>Catholics, Jews, bankers, right-wingers, left-wingers, Muslims...<<

Yep, alla thems. And Dem'crats too.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Yes, doug, I think you've done a fine job of satirizing the beliefs of nobody in this discussion. Thank you for your contribution.

Just because some conspiracies exist, that does not mean that everything is a conspiracy. As has been said, most of the popular conspiracy theories are just meant to distract us from Satan's conspiracy. Once you start believing everything the conspiracy "experts" tell you, you can't trust anyone, and you can't listen to any dissenting sources, and you have to convert everyone to your conspiracy theories. It's really not unlike a cult. I don't really see any reason for Christians to freak out because someone told them that the government is trying to kill everyone (for... some reason...).

Sivart, you have generally done a pretty good job of staying out of these kinds of over-generalizations. The question is whether conspiracy theories should be examined. Your taking it to the wall like you did above, doesn't come right out and say that everyone who looks for evidence of conspiracy is a lunatic, but it implies it.

There have been some famous conspiracies. They center around money and power. It is logical that big money and big power would be a lure for conspirators.

The following famous expression stems from a conspiracy for power in the most powerful government on earth. "Et tu, Brutus?"

Karl, I think you're way off on this. Republics,like ours,don't need the allure of big money and power to attract conspiritors.---------------------------------------All the best,Al Gore

[Neil D]

Explaining The Illuminati - John Todd

"John Todd, a former member of the illuminati, warned us against their plans for world domination before he was framed and effectively discredit by the illuminati. The words that he left on his audio tapes are still coming to pass which puts lots of credibility on his claim that he was an insider. This audio tape speaks about the evil plans of the illuminati for world control. This is just another piece of the puzzle that explains what’s going on today’s world."

From Wikipedia on John Todd-

Todd claimed to have served as a Green Beret in the Vietnam War, but his discharge papers list him as a general clerk/typist and do not record him having been in Vietnam. Army medical reports referred to "emotional instability with pseudologica phantastica" (compulsive lying), difficulty in telling reality from fantasy, homicidal threats he had made on another, false suicide reports, and a severe personality disturbance.[13] Todd also claimed in his testimony to have murdered an officer in Germany and to have escaped prison with the help of the Illuminati, but his records show no such things occurred.[13]

Todd's speaking engagements during 1978 and 1979 generated controversy and sometimes hysteria at the churches he spoke at. Frequently, there were claims by Todd of gunshots in the parking lot or attacks on his life after the services, but there were no witnesses to confirm his claims.[1]

While Todd claimed to have left witchcraft in 1972 and converted to fundamentalist Christianity, accounts have him being baptized into a Oneness Pentecostal church in Phoenix, Arizona in 1968, and leading a Wiccan group in Ohio in 1976. When confronted with the latter by Christian evangelists, Todd said that he had gone through a period of "backsliding" during that time. However, when a number of other inconsistencies in Todd's story were reported in the evangelical Christian media, and Todd began denouncing many Christian leaders as part of the Satanic conspiracy or the Illuminati, many evangelists denounced Todd and cut off any further association. Jack Chick was the only influential evangelist to continue to defend Todd.[14]

Several evangelical Christian ministries investigated Todd's claims published articles disputing them. These included Cornerstone magazine, the Christian Research Institute, Christianity Today magazine, and the book The Todd Phenomenon by Darryl E. Hicks (with an introduction by Mike Warnke). Independent Baptist churches withdrew their speaking invitations and cut off contact.[citation needed]

I remember John Todd..I remember the tapes and I listened to him....There was no way to fact check his info....until I started adding up how many people were involved in the Illuminati....And it didn't make sense....roughly 1 in 5 was involved in the illuminati as he defined it. There were too many people as I figured it. Someone would have become disillusioned with either witchcraft, the illuminati or something and go public with it. But there was no one....There is no conspiracy to take over America on a spiritual basis....unless you want to believe it....and even then, it's still YOUR problem....