Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Musicman1228]

jsm,

These 7 Trumpets did not happen in the past, because the effects of the trumpets are felt world wide and not just locally, as in Jericho. If you look at what each of the first 4 trumpets entail you will see that there is no historic evidence that ANY of these spectacular world wide events have occurred as yet. If the 1st Trumpet has not sounded then it is impossible for the 7th Trumpet to have sounded. We also know this because the kingdom of this world HAS NOT become the Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ, the Great Tribulation has not happened, neither have the 7 Bowls of Wrath which occur right after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

[Dr. Rich]

John, elementary my friend. I asked a question a while back but as of yet no one has responded. Do you believe that Jesus could come in the clouds at any time--meaning today or tomorrow? If so, why? If not, why?

[Guest]

Not today or tomorrow. There are some other things that have to happen first.

[jsm]

Here is a brief synopsis from what is explained in greater detail in my paper @

http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

Revelation 4-11 presents a detailed series of events that will take place in the final days of the Laodicean period, and extending to the close of probation as the seventh trumpet is sounding.

To get this in a historic perspective as a continuation of the seventh (Laodicean) church period of Revelation 3, we will start with a literal translation [YLT] of what John wrote in Revelation 4:1, “After these things (meta tauta) I saw, and behold a door HAVING BEEN OPENED in heaven, and the voice first which I heard as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying: Come up here, and I will show thee things which it behooves to occur after these things (meta tauta).”

With the words “after these things” by John at the start of this verse, we know he is now going to tell about things he saw and heard “after” what he had seen and heard in previous chapters.

Then Jesus says to John in that same verse, “Come up here, and I will show thee THINGS which it behooves TO OCCUR AFTER these things” which John had seen and heard in previous chapters. This clearly means John would now be shown events to take place in the final days of the Laodicean period.

This is a clear historic continuation of events, and there is no justification here for recapitulation.

Compare this word application with Revelation 9:12. “One woe is past. Behold two more woes are coming AFTER THESE THINGS (meta tauta).”

Obviously this means two woes come AFTER the first woe. And what John saw in Rev 4 and onward comes AFTER what he saw in prior chapter.

John is then taken in chapter 4 through a door which is already standing open in heaven. It had been opened earlier, as stated in 3:8. And John sees the same throne-room setting as described in Daniel 7:9-10—WITH A VERY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE.

Daniel saw the 1844 start of the investigative judgment, with thrones being put in place and the court sitting down on those thrones.

John saw that same scene, BUT WITH THE THRONES ALREADY SET AND OCCUPIED.

This obviously takes place later than the 1844 scene Daniel saw. And future verses indicate John sees the court as the investigative judgment is coming to a close.

John next sees a scroll that can only be opened by the Lamb who had been slain. “It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.” Leviticus 17:11. “and without shedding of blood there is no remission.” Hebrews 9:22.

What is this scroll (book)? Only after Christ—the Lamb—takes the sealed book, is it called “the Book of life of the Lamb” and “the Lamb’s book of life.” Revelation 13:8; 21:27.

The symbolism here of Christ, as the Lamb that had previously been slain, taking and opening the book (scroll) at the end of the investigative judgment is that HE ALONE CAN BLOT OUT SINS FROM THE RECORD. And that takes place only at the end of the investigation process. Leviticus 16:20-21.

The Bible explains that the decision on who will be saved takes place during the ant-typical Day of Atonement before Christ comes. This began in 1844 with the investigative judgment by a court in heaven as they reviewed the contents of several books. But as this review process comes to an end, only the records in one book—”the book”—determines who will be saved. Daniel 12:1. Those named in this book will make up Christ’s kingdom; and Daniel 7:11-12 shows Him coming to His father to receive that kingdom, “which will be given Him” not in 1844, but “at the close of His work as mediator.” GC 480. The investigation process is then ending.

Now consider this: Ellen White wrote, “The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. Those who have permitted their minds to become beclouded in regard to what constitutes sin are fearfully deceived. Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men.” 9T 267.

The following statements explain that this Revelation 5 and onward time when God, through Christ, “pronounces” the sentence of judgment did not start in 1844; instead it comes at the end of that investigation process. “Christ is soon to act as Judge, where now he officiates as mediator.” “When sin has been repented of, confessed, and forsaken, then pardon is written against the sinner's name; but his sins are not blotted out until after [not during, but ‘after’] the investigative judgment.” EGW in Signs of the Times, 2-23-1882 & 5-16-1895.

“The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after [not during, but ‘after’] the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated.” GC 485.

Revelation 6 shows a series of events that will take place while Jesus is unsealing the book; and chapter 7 describes the sealing of 144,00 as “first fruits” (14:4) and then “a great multitude which no man could number.”

Revelation 8:1

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8:2

And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

8:6

And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

It is evident from this that the seven trumpets of warning are sounding when Jesus opens the seventh seal. And John is later told probationary time will not close until the seventh trumpet sounds:

Revelation 10.7

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God (“mystery of the gospel.” Ephesians 6:19; Colossians 1:25-2:2) should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

After Daniel saw that judgment scene, he said:

Daniel 7:13

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

7:14

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom.

“He comes to the Ancient of Days in heaven to receive dominion and glory and a kingdom, which will be given Him AT THE CLOSE OF HIS WORK AS A MEDIATOR.” GC 479. That is at the close of probationary time.

Compare that with the following:

Revelation 11:15-17 NIV

  The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

   "The kingdom of the world has become the KINGDOM of our Lord and of his Christ,

      and he will reign for ever and ever." And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

   "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

      the One who is and who was,

   because you have taken your great power

      and HAVE BEGUN TO REIGN.

"In the dsys of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God will be finished." Revelation 10:7.

[jsm]

We need to be considerate of Uriah Smith and others with similar prophetic interpretations. I believe they were useful in their time; but that should not prevent us from studying these prophecies further and find a more direct application to our time.

Here are some Bible examples that were appropriate in their time, but actually apply more directly now:

The disciples of Jesus had asked about signs of the end-time. Among the signs He gave was this: “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Mathew 24:24.

This led John to later write: “Little children, IT IS THE LAST HOUR; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.” 1 John 2:18.

Joel 2:28 is about the last days: “And it shall come to pass afterward

      That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh...

Now notice how Peter applied this to his time in Acts 2:16-17

But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

       ‘ And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS, says God,

       That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh…

Then we have this prophecy: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.” Malachi 4:5.

Jesus explained it had appropriate applications to John the Baptist and also to the last days:

Mark 9:11-13

And they asked Him, saying, “Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”

Then He answered and told them, “Indeed, Elijah IS COMING first and restores all things. And how is it written concerning the Son of Man, that He must suffer many things and be treated with contempt? But I say to you that Elijah HAS ALSO COME, and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him.”

Matthew 11:13-14

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he (John) is Elijah who is to come.

John the Baptist prophesied concerning Jesus: “His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12.

Concerning this, EGW wrote:

“Like the Saviour's disciples, John the Baptist did not understand the nature of Christ's kingdom. He expected Jesus to take the throne of David; and as time passed, and the Saviour made no claim to kingly authority, John became perplexed and troubled. He had declared to the people that in order for the way to be prepared before the Lord, the prophecy of Isaiah must be fulfilled; the mountains and hills must be brought low, the crooked made straight, and the rough places plain. He had looked for the high places of human pride and power to be cast down. He had pointed to the Messiah as the One whose fan was in His hand, and who would thoroughly purge His floor, who would gather the wheat into His garner, and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Like the prophet Elijah, in whose spirit and power he had come to Israel, he looked for the Lord to reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire.” DA 215.

She also applied those words by John the Baptist to both Christ’s earthly ministry and to the end-time:

Jesus had said His followers “must walk in the narrow path traveled by the Man of Calvary, if they would share in the gift of life and the glory of heaven. The test was too great. The enthusiasm of those who had sought to take Him by force and make Him king grew cold….By the public rebuke of their unbelief these disciples were still further alienated from Jesus….‘Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner.’ Matt. 3:12. This was one of the times of purging. By the words of truth, the chaff was being separated from the wheat.” DA 391-2.

“Already the judgments of God are abroad in the land, as seen in storms, in floods, in tempests, in earthquakes, in perils by land and by sea….The days of purification of the church are hastening on space. God will have a people pure and true. In the mighty sifting soon to take place, we shall be better able to measure the strength of Israel. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that his fan is in his hand, and that he soon will thoroughly purge his floor. The days are fast approaching when there will be great perplexity and confusion. Satan, clothed in angel robes, will deceive, if possible, the very elect. There will be gods many and lords many. Every wind of doctrine will be blowing.” EGW in RH 1/11/1887.

As we look at the following words in Revelation, we can understand some of the past interpretations:

“Then he (the angel) said to me (John), ‘These words are faithful and true.’ And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants THE THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE.” Revelation 22:6.

For us today, we must look for a merging of ALL the prophecies about the end time.

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, my question is why? Would not that violate the words of God in Daniel 12:10?

[jsm]

Rich,

Daniel 12:9-10 says in "the time of the end...the wise shall understand"

James 1:5-6 says God will give that wisdom to those who ask in faith.

Major portions of both Daniel and Revelation became well understood in the 19th century.

[Dr. Rich]

O---K, Stan, if you want to believe what people believed in the 19th century, it is your choice. But what good did it do for them? It is my understanding that only those who are wise and living IN the last generation will understand.

Since I have been asking God for wisdom and the ability to understand this wisdom since 1984, and if you too have been doing this, then there must be something wrong here. Knowing the singular and absolute truth will cause unity, not confusion and contradictions. What do you think about this?

[Musicman1228]

Rich,

Daniel 12:9-10 says in "the time of the end...the wise shall understand"

James 1:5-6 says God will give that wisdom to those who ask in faith.

Major portions of both Daniel and Revelation became well understood in the 19th century.

In Daniel 12 the Angel told Daniel that the prophecies would be sealed up until the time of the end. My understanding of this is that the 'time of the end' is the period of the final generation that will be alive at the time when these prophecies are fulfilled. It is for that generation to understand the prophecies, therefore anyone that has died before that time could not possibly know the interpretation of those prophecies because they were not unseal for them. This include anyone that was alive in the 19th century, all of whom are now dead.

Not even Daniel himself was to know the interpretation of those end time prophecies. If God would not tell Daniel (who was beloved of God) the true interpretation because the prophecies were sealed He would also not tell EGW for the same reason. EGW and the founders of our church could not possibly have understood the true meaning of these prophecies, which makes any interpretation they have given unreliable at best.

It would appear that knowing where you are in time is important to gaining the understanding necessary to correctly interpret these end time prophecies.

[Musicman1228]

It is for this reason that a misinterpreted prophecy caused the Great Disappointment. The early Adventists did not know the correct interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy because it's meaning had not yet been unsealed.

[jsm]

I apologize for getting this off-topic from Revelation 4-11. That is my focus here, and please make it yours. Thanks.

[phkrause]

Not today or tomorrow. There are some other things that have to happen first.

I do agree with you Richard that it wont be today or tomorrow. But I'm not so sure that everything that is suppose to happen has to happen. But that's just my thoughts. I believe that sometimes we look for certain things to happen in a certain order and if it doesn't than we start thinking that something's off. I just look at all the different things and think how does this relate to what I've read or am reading. Just a thought.

pk

[Dr. Rich]

No problem, Rev. 4, 5 and 6 all go together. Rev. 4 presents a picture for understanding a court like setting for the opening up of the books.

Lets not forget that Rev. 2 and 3 are actually seven messages about the characteristics for God's people (you could call this the church but if you did, then you must also specify which church) living in the last generation, because common sense (if there is such a thing anymore) tells us that Jesus could not come like a thief to any other group.

Therefore, Rev. 4 is an introduction to a scene in heaven. It does not mean that this event takes place after the messages are understood by the wise living in the last generation.

Rev. 7 present a picture of the what the Kingdom of Heaven is like just before the time of trouble. The 144,000 come out of and are from the fullness of this group. The multitude is not the same thing as the 144,000, for these are from every race and nation on earth.

[Guest]

O---K, Stan, if you want to believe what people believed in the 19th century, it is your choice. But what good did it do for them? It is my understanding that only those who are wise and living IN the last generation will understand.

Where does the text say anything about having to be living in the last generation to understand it. The time of the end was here long before the last generation. There are people who understood it perfectly who are dead now. What good did it do them you ask? When they come up in the first resurrection, it will be obvious to all living what good it did.

As usual you guys are reading and proclaiming something that isn't even there.

[Guest]

It is for this reason that a misinterpreted prophecy caused the Great Disappointment. The early Adventists did not know the correct interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy because it's meaning had not yet been unsealed.

Ah but that IS when it was unsealed. Right after the great disappointment the true meaning of the event was shown to one of the men that had been up all night studying with a group to see where they went wrong. He was cutting through a corn field, and God showed it to him in a vision. And if you think that was from Satan, then I don't see how or why you would see SDAs as being the KOH. Because that doctrine and the way it came about is the very foundation of what adventists believe, and the reason they exist. They were led by God, not men. What you're teaching is just something different. That's all. To say that the SDA church somehow fits in to what you believe, doesn't even make sense.

[wayfinder]

It was the information in Daniel chps. 10-12 that were sealed up.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, it would be really nice of you to act civil and instead of crying foul, explain YOUR understanding and why you understand it the way you do. All I am asking is for you to be honest with yourself and with others who may not believe the way you do.

It has been pointed out before, and I will point it out again, 'our' group is NOT in the business of seeking members, nor do we seek any type of 'donation' from others. If someone wants to believe something other than what we see is the truth, then that is totally up to them.

I also believe that you would agree that truth is singular and absolute so it would behoove all of us to search for the real honest truth.

[jsm]

Consider the method of Bible study used by William Miller:

“God sent His angel to move upon the heart of a farmer [William Miller] who had not believed the Bible, to lead him to search the prophecies...He saw that one portion of Scripture explains another, and when one passage was closed to his understanding, he found in another part of the Word that which explained it.” EGW in EW 229.

So do we now use his Bible based method to interpret what the seven trumpets mean? Isaiah 28:10.

Do the SEVEN TRUMPETS represent periods of time in the Christian era, or end-time warnings?

Here is WHAT HISTORIANS SAY, as quoted by Uriah Smith in his Daniel and Revelation, pp 475 and 493.

“The blowing of the trumpets by the seven angels comes as a complement to the prophecy of Daniel 2 and 7, beginning with the breaking up of the old Roman Empire into its ten divisions. In the first four trumpets, we have a description of the special events which marked Rome's fall.”

“The Fifth Trumpet.--For an exposition of this trumpet, we shall again draw from the writings of Alexander Keith. This writer says:

“‘There is scarcely so uniform an agreement among interpreters concerning any other part of the Apocalypse as respecting the application of the fifth and sixth trumpets, or the first and second woes, to the Saracens and the Turks. It is so obvious that it can scarcely be misunderstood. Instead of a verse or two designating each, the whole of the ninth chapter of the Revelation, equal portions, is occupied with a description of both.’”

Now, comparing Scripture with Scripture, WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

God said: “When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he BLOWS THE TRUMPET AND WARNS THE PEOPLE, then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head.” Ezekiel 33:2-4.

SEVEN TRUMPETS were used to WARN Jericho of their coming doom:

“So it was, when Joshua had spoken to the people, that the seven priests bearing the SEVEN TRUMPETS of rams’ horns before the LORD advanced and blew the TRUMPETS, and the ark of the covenant of the LORD followed them.” Joshua 6:8.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ...I asked a question a while back but as of yet no one has responded. Do you believe that Jesus could come in the clouds at any time--meaning today or tomorrow? If so, why? If not, why?

No, he won't come today or tomorrow. He could if He wanted to but the Bible shows that He has other plans. He's waiting for something. He's waiting for His people to be prepared for His coming, and when He sees that they are ready, He will allow the end-time events to occur that lead rapidly to the Second Coming. The reason He doesn't allow those things to happen yet is that His church is not yet ready. If those things occurred now-- the time of trouble, the test of mark of the beast, the persecution, etc.-- most of the church that He's waiting for would fall away. He's waiting for a significant number to be strong enough and sealed so that they will go all the way through to the end, and stand up under terrible stress just like Job. I think most of us-- if not all-- would fall away under such circumstances now.

So, as Richard said, there are events that still must happen before Chirst returns. Jesus is waiting for the word, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." Rev. 14: 15. Compare Rev. 19: 7.

[Robert]

He's waiting for a significant number to be strong enough and sealed so that they will go all the way through to the end, and stand up under terrible stress just like Job.

[jsm]

John, your response above to the question by Rich is very well stated.

[Musicman1228]

John is correct in saying that Jesus cannot come today or tomorrow. In fact, I'll go farther and say that Jesus cannot come back as a Thief in the (prophetic) Night until the Faithful and Wise bondservant and his fellow servants (the 144,000, a literal number) have finished the process of Sanctification and are then sealed. Jesus returns as a Thief to seal the 144,000 and THEN they (the 144,000) give the midnight cry to the 10 sleeping bridesmaids that "the Bridegroom IS HERE, come out to meet Him". It is my understanding that these events happen nearly simultaneously at the beginning of the 1335 days of Dan.12:12, although the sealing of the F & W servant could take place just before the sealing of the 144,000. The 1335 days (literal) are for the preparation of the Bridesmaids for service to the Bride (world). In the SDA church this is known as the 'Shaking'.

[BobRyan]

The theif in the night experience happens to an individual when HIS name is reviewed -- not when the 144,000 have all been sealed. We have no reason at all to think that everyone's name comes up at the same instant.

Remeber that those who are engaged in that Daniel 7 review are finite beings. So one name at a time. And that means that at any moment the name that comes up - could be yours. Thus the thief in the night illustration turns out to be correct.

Ellen White stated that the shaking had already started in her day.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Bob, now that is a new one! Do you have any bible texts to support your view? Is this like a lottery or something like that? Your view reminds me of when and how I was drafted into the Army.

Let me get this straight--are you saying that when a name come up one at a time, that this person will either be sealed by God or thrown in the lake of fire? Will this person be alive when this happens? If so, when this person's name comes up, will it then be too late for this person to be converted in the future? And when did all of this start?

Since you don't believe that the 144,000 become sealed like this, please tell me when you believe they become sealed and how it happens?

And can you show where EGW said the shaking had already started in her day?

Oh, and John, great post! Great job in explaining your view.

[Musicman1228]

The theif in the night experience happens to an individual when HIS name is reviewed -- not when the 144,000 have all been sealed. We have no reason at all to think that everyone's name comes up at the same instant.

Remeber that those who are engaged in that Daniel 7 review are finite beings. So one name at a time. And that means that at any moment the name that comes up - could be yours. Thus the thief in the night illustration turns out to be correct.

Ellen White stated that the shaking had already started in her day.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

You are making a general application to a prophecy about a specific person. The reason I know this is because God will not put every single person who is granted eternal life over ALL His possessions. That is the reward that God give the F & W bondservant when God returns and finds him feeding his fellow servants their food (truth) at the appointed time. The Faithful and Wise bondservant is a single individual who is the 'head of the household' in the Kingdom of God.

There are any number of examples of this in the OT; Joseph in Egypt was the 'head of the house' of Pharaoh, in charge of everything except on the Throne. The Israelite kings had a 'head of the house' that acted on their behalf in running the kingdom of Israel. Daniel was the 'head of the house' for Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon. These were all single individuals that were given extraordinary power by the Crown Ruler.

This is exactly the same situation with the F & W bondservant as seen in Matt. 24:42-51. When the Master comes to the F & W bondservant and seals him he is no longer a 'finite' being, he is now and eternal being having been sealed in perfect righteousness by the King of the Kingdom of Heaven.

As to when the 'shaking' begins: When the 10 bridesmaids are awakened from their sleeping condition (spiritually asleep/dead) the information that is given them by the 144,000 separates them into two camps-those that believe the 144K that the Master has come and they slept through it, and those that don't believe that what the 144K says is true. THIS is the shaking of the SDA church in which long held paradigms and cherished beliefs are tested to the breaking point. The five wise believe what the 144K are teaching them and except it as truth. The five foolish bridesmaids choose to stick with what they have always believed to be true (what the church has taught them) and they are left out of the marriage feast.

Yes, EGW did say that the 'shaking' had already started; she is as wrong about this as she was wrong about the 7th Trumpet sounding in 1844. Neither of these events have happened yet. [if she is wrong about these what else could she be wrong about.]