Woody Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Quote: LOL, well it isn't really meant to be "turned around" in any way. That's how I have always understood it. Are you saying you agreed or disagreed with this? I wasn't sure because of your use of the little "ear-digger" dudes in your post. Well ... communication via the internet waves IS most difficult. Yes! I very much liked your post and agreed with it. (And no smilies as to not confuse.) Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
jsm Posted April 4, 2010 Author Posted April 4, 2010 Rich, thanks for the reminder. We all need to show more love and kindness towards others in what we write and say. Surely we are not so egotistical as to think we know it all! There is yet more to learn, and much will become evident as the events foretold draw near. I learn many things by dialog with others; and I'm sure that is one goal of this forum. That does not mean, however, that I am comfortable listening to a person who clearly does not accept the inspired words in the Bible. With all that has been written against EGW, I can understand that some SDAs do not accept her writings as inspired by God. So I usually support quotes from her with Bible texts; and I find them to agree. I suggest others do the same. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 4, 2010 Moderators Posted April 4, 2010 So it is settled then, Richard can't see it and we can. This happens a lot in religious studies as well as in philosophy and art. Show a great piece of art to some people and they yawn and shrug their shoulders or throw up their hands, but when others see the same work, they can stand for hours in front of it and marvel at what they "see." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Guest Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 No John, their beliefs are not like art. Unless you're saying they have a creative imagination. I'll go along with that. Quote
jsm Posted April 4, 2010 Author Posted April 4, 2010 The bridge between the Laodicean message in Revelation 3:14-22 and the chapter 5 book (scroll) with seven seals is given in 4:1, where Jesus tells John: "Come up here, and I will show you THINGS WHICH MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THESE [LAODICEA] THINGS." Concerning the Revelation 5 scroll, EGW wrote: "The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. Those who have permitted their minds to become beclouded in regard to what constitutes sin are fearfully deceived. Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men." 9T 267. "The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll. 6T 17. Compare unrolling of the Revelation 5 scroll in chapter 6. "Revelation 6 & 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are the judgments of God revealed." EGW in Maranatha 284. "By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near.... "The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress which prophets have described as the time of Jacob's trouble. The cries of the faithful, persecuted ones ascend to heaven. And as the blood of Abel cried from the ground, there are voices also crying to God from martyrs' graves, from the sepulchers of the sea, from mountain caverns, from convent vaults: 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?'" 5T 451. [she quotes here from the Revelation 6:9-10 5th seal as the scroll is being unrolled]. "When the fifth seal was opened, John the Revelator in vision saw beneath the altar the company that were slain for the word of God and the testimomy of Jesus Christ. After this came the scenes described in the eighteenth of Revelation, when those who are faithful and true are called out from Babylon. [Revelation 18:1-5 quoted]. EGW Man. Releases, vol 20, p 14. "As foretold in the eighteenth of Revelation, the third angel's message is to be proclaimed with great power by those who give the final warning against the beast and his image." 8T 118. That final warning will come as the seven trumpets of Revelation 8-11 are sounding; and the bridge between seals and trumpets is given in Revelation 8:1-6, which shows the seven trumpets beginning to sound as the seventh seal is opened. “Solemn EVENTS before us are YET TO TRANSPIRE. TRUMPET AFTER TRUMPET is to be sounded." EGW in Maranatha 257. “The SEVEN ANGELS stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS. The Lord was going forth TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH.” EGW in Maranatha 284. The bridge between the seven trumpets and seven last plagues is given in Revelation 11:19 [at the end of the trumpet calls] and 15:5 [where the same heavenly temple scene is repeated]. The angels who were given the "seven last plagues" in 15:1 will leave the temple in 15:6 and pour them out in chapter 16. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Overaged, your reply on the web site is interesting. However, I noticed that you have refused to point out ONE thing on this site that is not true according to the words of Jesus. I find that you have the same problem a others who refuse to provide ANY evidence from the word of Jesus to show us that we are wrong. There are many places on this site to make a comment and I do not see that you have done so. If you write anything and I find something wrong with it, then I will point that out and provide the necessary evidence to prove it. I would like to be shown the same from you. Quote
Guest Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 I've shown you plenty of times from the words of Jesus, that you're wrong. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge it, or even address it, is not my problem. If you need your memory refreshed just look one page back. You never have addressed that post because there's nothing you can say to refute the facts I presented, in the words of Jesus. Quote
Overaged Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Overaged, your reply on the web site is interesting. However, I noticed that you have refused to point out ONE thing on this site that is not true according to the words of Jesus. I find that you have the same problem a others who refuse to provide ANY evidence from the word of Jesus to show us that we are wrong. There are many places on this site to make a comment and I do not see that you have done so. If you write anything and I find something wrong with it, then I will point that out and provide the necessary evidence to prove it. I would like to be shown the same from you. I'm still waiting to see you do that. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Dr. Rich Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Someone beat me to it when you said you saw the face of God. And Richard, your attempt to correct what is on the site is very lame at the best. Your misunderstanding has been caused by your negative attitude and I will never be able to change that. When you take off your rose colored glasses, then we might be able to eye to eye. PS--I told you before that I do understand what you write because I was there at one time too. Time will tell on who is right. Quote
Overaged Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Someone beat me to it when you said you saw the face of God. And Richard, your attempt to correct what is on the site is very lame at the best. Your misunderstanding has been caused by your negative attitude and I will never be able to change that. When you take off your rose colored glasses, then we might be able to eye to eye. PS--I told you before that I do understand what you write because I was there at one time too. Time will tell on who is right. Wow! Where's all this "evidence from the words of Jesus" you were just talking about? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Guest Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Why don't you address my post one page back instead of deflecting, and talking about rose colored glasses. Do you think I'm the only one who can see right through that? Quote
Archie777 Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Originally Posted By: Archie God commanded the Remnant Church to preach again the prophecies that led up to the Great Disappointment (minus the time elements). “Thou must prophesy again… [only] there should be time no longer” Revelation 10:11,6 That makes sense. Also I read verse 7 which seems to fit in and show that the seventh trumpet is not blown all at once, but has a starting point. Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets. And the last part of that text would seem to indicate a time when facts about God which used to be mysteries, would be cleared up due to having a prophet. If you think about it, God revealed many things through Ellen White, that were not known before. Such as the sanctuary doctrine. First it was shown in vision to a man in a corn field, who had gone through the great disapointment, (can't think of his name) and later was confirmed through Ellen White. Many truths that used to be mysteries were given to us by way of EGW. Quote: Those prophecies are recorded in Revelation chapters 1-11 (the 7 churches, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 thunders and the 2 witnesses). Thus, the prophecies not only cover the history of the Christian Church (First Advent - 1844), they also cover the future of the Remnant Church (1844 - Second Advent I believe that. Quote
Archie777 Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 The bridge between the Laodicean message in Revelation 3:14-22 and the chapter 5 book (scroll) with seven seals is given in 4:1, where Jesus tells John: "Come up here, and I will show you THINGS WHICH MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THESE [LAODICEA] THINGS." Concerning the Revelation 5 scroll, EGW wrote: "The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. Those who have permitted their minds to become beclouded in regard to what constitutes sin are fearfully deceived. Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men." 9T 267. "The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll. 6T 17. Compare unrolling of the Revelation 5 scroll in chapter 6. "Revelation 6 & 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are the judgments of God revealed." EGW in Maranatha 284. "By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near.... "The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress which prophets have described as the time of Jacob's trouble. The cries of the faithful, persecuted ones ascend to heaven. And as the blood of Abel cried from the ground, there are voices also crying to God from martyrs' graves, from the sepulchers of the sea, from mountain caverns, from convent vaults: 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?'" 5T 451. [she quotes here from the Revelation 6:9-10 5th seal as the scroll is being unrolled]. "When the fifth seal was opened, John the Revelator in vision saw beneath the altar the company that were slain for the word of God and the testimomy of Jesus Christ. After this came the scenes described in the eighteenth of Revelation, when those who are faithful and true are called out from Babylon. [Revelation 18:1-5 quoted]. EGW Man. Releases, vol 20, p 14. "As foretold in the eighteenth of Revelation, the third angel's message is to be proclaimed with great power by those who give the final warning against the beast and his image." 8T 118. That final warning will come as the seven trumpets of Revelation 8-11 are sounding; and the bridge between seals and trumpets is given in Revelation 8:1-6, which shows the seven trumpets beginning to sound as the seventh seal is opened. “Solemn EVENTS before us are YET TO TRANSPIRE. TRUMPET AFTER TRUMPET is to be sounded." EGW in Maranatha 257. “The SEVEN ANGELS stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS. The Lord was going forth TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH.” EGW in Maranatha 284. The bridge between the seven trumpets and seven last plagues is given in Revelation 11:19 [at the end of the trumpet calls] and 15:5 [where the same heavenly temple scene is repeated]. The angels who were given the "seven last plagues" in 15:1 will leave the temple in 15:6 and pour them out in chapter 16. Well done. Don't know if you noticed or not but I posted a study suggesting similar insights. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Archie, The blood under the altar can only be from those who have been sealed by God, since a sacrifice had to be perfect. This could only mean that this blood is from those from the 144k who have died after they have been sealed by God. It is a mistake to believe that these are from all of the people who were killed in the reformation. Quote
Guest Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Rich, what would be the point of God allowing someone to be martyred after they are sealed. They are no longer being tested. No one will be martyred after they have been sealed. The ones that are sealed will live to see Jesus come in the clouds of glory. It would make no sense at all to let them be killed after they have passed all the tests. Look at what it says about the ones who have been sealed: Rev 7:16,17 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Richard, I didn't think that you were interested in studying time and timing. My understanding is that you believe that we have been told by expert authority that we are not to study or even try to know 'when' the events of the end are to occur. In order to know if we are living in the time of the end you would have to find out when the time of the end is, and that is studying time, which is verboten. However, in the interest of increased understanding I will show you using Scripture and logic (the two actually do go together) WHEN we are in time. I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Dan. 12:8-9. And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed. Dan. 11:27. And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder. When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery, and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time. Dan 11:33-35. Here we see just three examples of where 'time' and the 'appointed time' are mentioned in prophecy. Note that the Two Kings at the end appear at an 'appointed time'. This cannot have happened as yet because none of us who are alive right now have experienced this event associated with these two kings. The events of these two kings happen during the 'time of the end'. The understanding of the prophecies of Daniel 11 and 12 are also sealed up until the 'time of the end'. We would need to know for certain that we are in the 'time of the end' before we could be sure that our understanding of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation is true. One thing is certain, that unless these prophecies have been unsealed we CANNOT know the true interpretation. Prophecies about the end of time apply ONLY to those who will go through the events described in the prophecies. This is logical, as if you are already dead you will not undergo anything that has not already happened. If you are not going to go through these events because you are already dead there is no logical way that you would be able to or need to be able to interpret these specific prophecies. Therefore, logically no one that is dead could have or been given the understanding of prophecies that would not directly affect them. This applies to Wm Miller and EGW, as well as to any Bible scholar that as of the 'appointed time of the end' has passed into the grave. This is why it is essential to KNOW when the 'appointed time of the end' began. Only then can you KNOW that the time for the prophecies to be unsealed has arrived. Somewhere in the archives of the forum is an explanation that I gave of why I believe that the appointed time of the end started in 1994 CE. I was roundly criticized for this, but I don't care. I am reasonably certain that the explanation is logical and can be justified through Scripture. However, I can't say for certain, so look at it and decide for yourself. I'll see if I can find it and post it again. If my understanding is true that the 'appointed time of the end' began in 1994 then that would mean that any explanation that was given before that date by anyone that is dead as of that date cannot be correct, because the understanding was not unsealed prior to that date. That would also mean that we are indeed living in a delay period just prior to the unfolding of events of the end of time, and THAT is exciting. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Here is my understanding as to WHEN we are in time. It is my understanding from studying TIMING that the day/year application to prophecy ended in 1994 CE (explanation to follow), because that is when the Restoration (Jubilee) Calendar ended. God's limit of forgiveness is 70; Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven. Matt.18:21-22. This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste. Jer. 25:11-12. I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. Dan. 9:2. “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place." Dan. 9:24. God's restoration is 49 (7 x 7); “You shall count seven weeks of years, seven times seven years, so that the time of the seven weeks of years shall give you forty-nine years. Then you shall sound the loud trumpet on the tenth day of the seventh month. On the Day of Atonement you shall sound the trumpet throughout all your land. And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. Lev.25:8-10. God's Timing: There are three timing devices on the Restoration Calendar. The Day/Year, where one day = one year. A week of years - 7 day/years. (1 day = 1 year). Lev.25:1-4. A week of Sabbath years - 7 day/years X 7 Sabbath years = 49 years. Lev. 25:8. The Timing of Restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven: 70 (limit of forgiveness) X 49 years (for restoration) = 3,430 years. In order to find the time of the beginning of restoration for the Kingdom of Heaven we would need to know the precise date for the founding of the Kingdom of Heaven. We can calculate this from waymark dates of Restoration years for Israel. The most notable date is the final year of the 490 day/year prophecy in Dan. 9;24. This is the years 33 CE. [490 - 33 = 457 CE, the year of the decree to restore Israel to their land). The estimated historic date for when Israel left Egypt has been set by scholars as c. 1450 BCE. We need to find a date close to that date going backward from 33 CE to establish the date of the founding of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. By taking 33 CE as the end date we can back up in 49 year increments to find a date that is close the estimated date. There are exactly 30 cycles of 49 years ending in 33 CE which gives the beginning date as 1437 BCE. This then is the date upon which God took Israel out of Egypt and put them into the Kingdom of Heaven. To find the future date for the beginning of restoration we simply add 3,430 years to 1437 BCE and we get 1994 CE. This is the date upon which God began the final process of the restoration of the world back to His authority. To corroborate the date 1994 CE lets add 40 cycles (30 + 40 =70) of 49 years to the beginning year of the next cycle of 49 years AFTER 33 CE. We begin the next cycle in the year 34 CE. 40 X 49 = 1960 years. 34 CE + 1960 years = 1994 CE. Therefore, according to my calculations 1994 CE was to be the date upon which the Great Tribulation began. Why did it not begin then? Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, Rev. 7: 2-4. And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, Rev. 10: 5-6. Therefore, I believe that the year 1994 CE was the beginning of the delay during which the 144,000 would be prepared for service to the Kingdom of Heaven, and then the world. We are in that delay right now. Soon there will be no more delay, the censer will be cast down from Heaven to earth, and the Great Tribulation will begin with the sounding of the first of seven Trumpets. The day/year accounting in prophecy ended in 1994. Any prophecy containing a number that has not been fulfilled as yet must then be considered A LITERAL number. These would include all of the numbers in Revelation that have not yet been fulfilled, and the 1335 years in Dan 12. Quote
Overaged Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 I was roundly criticized for this, but I don't care. I am reasonably certain that the explanation is logical and can be justified through Scripture. However, I can't say for certain, so look at it and decide for yourself. I'll see if I can find it and post it again. If my understanding is true that the 'appointed time of the end' began in 1994 then that would mean that any explanation that was given before that date by anyone that is dead as of that date cannot be correct, because the understanding was not unsealed prior to that date. That would also mean that we are indeed living in a delay period just prior to the unfolding of events of the end of time, and THAT is exciting. You are "resonably certain" yet you "can't say for certain;" and all in one breath too. Wow. By the looks of this post, and Dr Rich's last post, you both need to rustle up some of those "words of Jesus" that Rich was admonishing me about several posts ago. perhaps then, there would be some basis of discussion. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Overaged Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Here is my understanding as to WHEN we are in time. It is my understanding from studying TIMING that the day/year application to prophecy ended in 1994 CE (explanation to follow), because that is when the Restoration (Jubilee) Calendar ended. God's limit of forgiveness is 70; Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven. Matt.18:21-22. The day/year accounting in prophecy ended in 1994. Any prophecy containing a number that has not been fulfilled as yet must then be considered A LITERAL number. These would include all of the numbers in Revelation that have not yet been fulfilled, and the 1335 years in Dan 12. You do some weird things with numbers. The number 70 is not meant literally by Jesus in Mat. 18. Are you telling us that you now use a counter, and as soon as one of your children (if you have any) hit 70, then you stop forgiving them? The rest of what you have done here with numbers is equally absurd, and impossible. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Guest Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Quote: In order to know if we are living in the time of the end you would have to find out when the time of the end is, and that is studying time, which is verboten. Studying time is not verboten, but setting time prophecies after the last time prophecy has been fulfilled is a complete waste of time. The time of the end has already been established. The last time prophecy ended in 1844. The prophecies of daniel were unsealed and shown to the advent people. That is how we were given the truth about the sanctuary in heaven and other things. And that is when the time of the end began. But of course, since you have re-interpreted everything else to suit your own ideas, why should this be any different? You have set out to destroy all of our doctrines pretty much, and have set yourself up as the arbiter of truth. And all the while calling yourself an Adventist. LOL Quote: If my understanding is true that the 'appointed time of the end' began in 1994 then that would mean that any explanation that was given before that date by anyone that is dead as of that date cannot be correct, because the understanding was not unsealed prior to that date. All this does is prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your understanding is not correct. Quote
wayfinder Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Richard, In your complete understanding, can you tell me what the "abomination of desolation" is, and we will start from there. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 God set a limit of forgiveness for Israel at 70 weeks (7) or 490 years. If they did not accomplish what God required of them then God would remove the Covenant from them and give it to another people. This is exactly what happened. The end of the 490 years was in 33 CE. Israel did not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Messiah, in fact they said that they had no king but Caesar. There IS a limit to the mercy and forgiveness of God, and that is expressed in the value of 70. Israel was given 70 Sabbath year violations and then God would kick them off His land and send them into captivity. That happened and they were sent into captivity in Babylon. This was the first Kingdom of Heaven. The second Kingdom was initiated at the end of those 70 years in Babylon when God told Daniel that He was giving Israel and additional 70 weeks of years to accomplish everything that God told them to do in Dan. 9:24. They did not obey God and He took the kingdom away from them and gave it to another people, just a Jesus said that God would do. We are now the third Kingdom, which was put in force at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy in 1844 CE. We are the last Kingdom, and this Kingdom will not be given to another people (Dan. 2:44-45). We are IT. This is the Kingdom into which all must come in order to be saved. I am not speaking of the SDA church as a Corporation, but as the identity of the people of God at the end of time: those the keep the Commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev.12:17). Quote
Overaged Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 God set a limit of forgiveness for Israel at 70 weeks (7) or 490 years. If they did not accomplish what God required of them then God would remove the Covenant from them and give it to another people. This is exactly what happened. The end of the 490 years was in 33 CE. Israel did not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Messiah, in fact they said that they had no king but Caesar. There IS a limit to the mercy and forgiveness of God, and that is expressed in the value of 70. While one can always dig up a couple of "70s" to "prove" their points here; the fact remains that you did not actually answer my question, or reply to the first specific concern about your eisegesis that I brought up. The text in Mat 18 is not intended by Jesus to be literal. You have not acknowledged that. And my question to you about that was in the context of parenting. Would you; if you were a parent, actually carry out this theory of your's and stop forgiving your kids after they hit the 70th time? Do you realize how old the poor child would be when he/she reached number 70? (some kids I have known, myself included would not have even made it to primary school before they hit 70). There is no way that "forgiveness" is always "expressed in the value of 70;" and when it is, it is not necessarily restricted to being literal 70. God's use of the number 70 in prophecy does not have such a restriction; for much more is invloved in the great time prophecies of the Bible. The time prophecies of the Bible show that God is in control; not that His forgiveness has "limits." Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
wayfinder Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 The limit is seventy sevens. On God's restoration calendar there were three separate designated limits. The first limit was connected to the seventh year or Sabbath year. The second was weeks of years, 70 times 7=490 years. The third was weeks of Sabbath years, which brought the calendar to it's predetermend end or as God puts it, the appointed time of the end. The calendar began in 1437BCE when God led His kingdom out of Egypt, and ended in 1994CE on the day before the spring equinox. This was the appointed time for the four angels to release the four winds (Rev.7:1-3). The four angels were told to hold the winds until the 144,000 were sealed. In Rev. 10 we are told that there will be delay no longer; therefore the delay in the release of the winds is ended. As far as Mat.18, I would be careful about saying that Jesus did not mean what He said. Peter said How many times...seven times. Jesus no not seven, but seventy times seven. In other words Jesus says, not just one seven but seventy sevens. If Jesus was not speaking specifically than why not just say forgiveness has no limit. Quote
Guest Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Like most of your beliefs wayfinder, it is based on speculation. For all you know Jesus could have meant that compared to seven, seventy times seven is limitless. You don't know. But yet you are willing to base a time prophecy on what you think Jesus meant. All time prophecies in the past were based on solid facts. Something you could check on and be sure about, (sure word of prophecy) not speculation. Everything Jesus said, was not prophecy. It was all true, even the parables had true meaning. But it was not all prophecy. So for you to decide which things to call prophecy, and which things not to call prophecy, is presumptuous at best. When He said seventy times seven He was not speaking of things to come, or saying this is what will happen. He was merely talking to peter about forgiveness. Immediately after He said that He launched into a parable. Why is that parable not a prophecy also? Instead you wait until the illustration about the bondservant, and say that since Jesus said "A bondservant" (singular) that it has to be a prophecy referring to one man on the face of the earth. I find that a bit ridiculous. That would be like an employer who employs 1000 people, making the statement: "If I come back from lunch and find a worker, or "an employee" (singular) goofing off, I'll fire him. Is he talking about one specific person, or does that include any and all of them? Usually, (almost always) when a person has to start twisting scripture, or stretching it, to make it say something that is not obvious, they are on the wrong track. Quote
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