Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[jsm]

I encourage all to study more closely what John wrote in Revelation 4:1, which comes Just after what he was told about the Laodicean period of church history:

THIS IS AN IMPORTANT KEY TO AN UNDERSTANDING OF CHAPTERS 4 through 11.

“After these things [meta tauta] I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, `Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things [meta tauta];'“ Revelation 4:1, Young’s Literal Translation.

“After these things I saw" simply means John SAW the next scenes AFTER what he had seen and heard in chapters 1 through 3.

Then when Jesus said,"Come up hither, and I WILL SHOW YOU what it behoveth to COME TO PASS AFTER THESE THINGS," He clearly meant John would now be shown WHAT EVENTS WILL COME AFTER the chapter 1 through 3 things.

So John is saying:

"AFTER THIS I was shown

WHAT MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THIS."

With this in mind, common sense tells us that the events of chapters 4 and 5 [and all they introduce to us] take place AFTER the events of chapter 3.

Please post your comments on this for dialog here.

AND PLEASE DO YOUR BICKERING ON ANOTHER THREAD!!!

Thanks,

Stan McCluskey (jsm)

[Overaged]

So John is saying:

"AFTER THIS I was shown

WHAT MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THIS."

With this in mind, common sense tells us that the events of chapters 4 and 5 [and all they introduce to us] take place AFTER the events of chapter 3.

Please post your comments on this for dialog here.

Thanks,

Stan McCluskey (jsm)

I certainly agree that these two chapters are informative and would indeed be very pertinent to understanding of the preceding and succeeding chapters. I don't know for sure if we can understand Rev 4 & 5 as in the chronological sense, atleast not strictly so in every detail. It seems to me that all of the things in all of revelation can and do build successively upon initial details; expanding them to the point where we actually understand better what God wants us to know. Some of it is chronological; and some of it isn't. I guess it depends upon what you are thinking of. For eg. the "new song" of 5:9 could be suggestive of and building upon the experience promised in Rev 3:21.

[jsm]

CHRONOLOGIC ORDER is important; so consider the following:

The expression, “after these things” [‘meta tauta’ in Greek], is used in two ways by John, in both Revelation and his Gospel:

1. It tells the order in which the INFORMATION was GIVEN.

Examples:

“After these things I SAW [meta tauta]…” Revelation 4:1 [at the start of the verse]; 7:9; 15:5; 18:1; 19:1.

2. It tells THE CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER IN WHICH EVENTS TAKE PLACE:

Examples

“Things which WILL TAKE PLACE AFTER these things [meta tauta]” Revelation 1:19; 4:1 [at the end of the verse]; 9:12; 20:3; John 3:22; 5:1; 6:1; 7:1; 13:7; 19:38; 21:1.

Read those verses and see how the “meta tauta” phrase is used by John; and then make the logical applications in Revelation 4:1.

Revelation 4:1 is the ONLY place in the Bible where the “meta tauta” phrase appears twice, and it certainly emphasizes that John would then be shown “THINGS WHICH WILL TAKE PLACE” AT THE END OF THE LAODICEAN PERIOD.

We are told why it is important to understand this:

“When we understand what this book [Revelation] means to us there will be seen among us a great revival.” TM 113.

“To John the Lord opened the subjects that He saw would be needed by His people IN THE LAST DAYS….

“The solemn messages that have been given in their order in the Revelation are to occupy the first place in the minds of God's people. Nothing else is to be allowed to engross the mind.” 8T 302.

[Musicman1228]

jsm said, "With this in mind, common sense tells us that the events of chapters 4 and 5 [and all they introduce to us] take place AFTER the events of chapter 3."

"After these things" does not necessarily indicate chronology within the prophecy, it could also just indicate the next part of the prophecy irrespective of chronology. Example:

jsm indicated that the events of Rev 4 and 5 happened AFTER the messages were given to the churches in Ch. 2 and 3, indicating that these 7 Churches are historical, having existed in the past.

Yet when I compare Rev. 4:1-11 with Dan. 7:9-10 I see an identical description which indicates that these are the same events.

As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. Dan. 7:9-10.

And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever,   (10) the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,   (11) “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” Rev. 4:9-11.

These indicate the same location and the same event. We confirm the event in the next passages-

I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.   (14) And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. Dan.7: 13-14.

And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.   (7) And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.   (8) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.   (9) And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,   (10) and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Rev. 5:6-10.

This confirms that same event when the Son of Man, the Lamb appearing as if it had been slain, is presented as worth before the Father in the court in Heaven. If this is the case then this occurred BEFORE (not after) the messages were given to the 7 Churches, making the messages to all 7 of the Churches a future event with respect to the scene in the court room in Heaven.

You see the problem here? Jesus was presented to His Father as the Lamb that was slain. This could not occur until AFTER Jesus had died and been resurrected. This happened in 30 CE (middle of the last week of the 70 x 7 weeks of Dan. 9:24). Right after Jesus was resurrected He ascended to and appeared before His Father (as the Wave Sheaf offering) in the Throne room in Heaven, having fulfilled the requirements of the Law and being found worth to open the Scroll. John did not receive the messages to the 7 Churches until c.95 CE, long after this event in Heaven took place.

So even thought the messages to the 7 Churches appears in the prophecy in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 as happening before the throne room scene in chapter 4 and 5 the the events actually happened in reverse order, which is NOT in chronological sequence. This is a regular occurrence in Revelation, which means we must use our knowledge of when these events took place to put them into the proper sequence.

[wayfinder]

I agree with you that chronological order is of upmost importance in helping us understand the prophicies. Revelation 4 starts the sequence of events that lead to the marriage supper of the Lamb. What I see is the whole picture presented to John, from start to finnish. The seven messages deal with the kingdom of heaven only and when the kingdom is sealed (marriage feast. this is not the same as the marriage supper of the Lamb). Revelation 4, John is shown how it is that the Lamb (Son of God/Son of Man) qualifies so that the events of Revelation lead to the restoration of the glory of God to this world. Chonology is maintained in the sevens (seals, trumpets, bowls) where the first is first and the seventh is seventh. Revelation 12 also gives a sequencial account where the king of the kingdom is born and goes up to heaven. He fights a war with the dragon and prevails. Then the dragon prepares for war with the saints. At the same time the King (Lamb) prepares for war with the dragon, these are the offspring of the Woman of Revelation 12.

[jsm]

When Jesus takes the scroll, He is ALREADY "in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders." Rev 5:6. He obviously was ALREADY IN HEAVEN.

As clearly stated in my last post, the phrase "after these things" is used in two ways:

1. The order in which John saw events.

2. The order in which events take place. This is by far the most frequent application.

"After these things" appears twice in Revelation 4:1:

1: At the start when John says, "After these [Laodicean] things I saw..."

2. At the end when Jesus says He will now SHOW John WHAT WILL TAKE PLACE "AFTER these [Laodicean]things."

[there buster]

That assumes there is a time progression in the 7 churches. No evidence for that in the text.

[Dr. Rich]

"After these things" could also mean: "After the angel gave the messages to John to write down". John could have written "After I heard these things, I saw----. So your implication that it is clear YOUR way is just not that clear and does not agree with the context anyway.

There is no "Laodicean things". All seven of the messages are for and to the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth living in the last generation or why else would God be warning them? It makes no sense to be warning a church that no longer is alive for things that will be taking place shortly! After all why warn anyone about a woman God calls Jezebel if they are not alive in the last generation? And why warn anyone about being asleep when Jesus comes IF they are indeed dead? This just does not make any sense!

The ONLY way this makes any sense is for all of the seven messages to be given to the present Kingdom of Heaven (SDA church) so that they understand what they have learned and are now practicing was a big fat lie. It is NO wonder then, that only a FEW will understand the true meaning of this as found in Rev. 3:4.

[jsm]

It is evident that messages to the seven churches applied to those churches at the time John was given the visions. The various characteristics can also find application to specific church groups throughout the Christian era, including today.

But also, the time progression in the seven churches is a common understanding among many Protestant denominations -- including SDAs.

Many papers have been written on this, and the following excerpts from one should help us understand this:

Letters to the Seven Churches

A Recurring Controversy within Theological Circles is the Applicability of the Messages to the Seven Churches of Revelation 2 and 3 to Subsequent Ages.

By Clinton Whalen

published in Ministry magazine, November 2007

A careful reading of Revelation suggests that the seven churches have a significance beyond a local application to congregations that have long since perished. In Revelation 1:19 Jesus commands John to write down what he saw (a clear reference to John’s vision of Jesus in vv. 11–16), as well as “what is, and what is to take place after this.” Ostensibly this would suggest that these letters deal with the condition of the churches both in John’s day and in the future.

Viewing the letters to the seven churches as apocalyptic and applicable until the end opens the possibility of their being treated not only as historical but also as prophetic. This means that their message, with the primary purpose of predictive prophecy to strengthen faith, becomes especially relevant for the end time (John 13:19). Many Christian interpreters through the centuries have understood these letters as prophetic of the condition of the church in successive ages from the first century to the end, and some today continue to do so.

To Laodicea, Jesus stands "at the door," which means in the language of the New Testament that the end is near (Matt. 24:33; Mark 13:29), and the fellowship meal points to the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7–9). The description of Jesus as “faithful and true” (both of which are connoted by the Hebrew word “Amen”) compares similarly to the description of the One coming on a white horse to judge righteously and make war (Rev. 19:11). Many examples, such as these mentioned in connection with Laodicea, demonstrate the close connection between the apocalyptic imagery of the letters and later chapters of Revelation. Sometimes the connection appears by way of contrast: The period of the Laodicean church corresponds to that of the “remnant” of Revelation 12:17. Understanding Revelation 2 and 3 as a prophetic portrayal of God’s visible church throughout history provides interpretative help for the later chapters. The final image of the faithful remnant must be balanced by the humbling image of blind and naked Laodicea.

Despite this perceptible progression in the seven letters toward an increasing focus on the end time, the first-century perspective of the imminent return of Jesus continues to figure throughout them in some way. Already the emphasis on the nearness of the Second Advent is prepared for in the inaugural vision. In Revelation 1:17 Jesus says, “I am the first and last.” And likewise in Revelation 22:12, 13, “See, I am coming soon; … I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” The letters themselves refer several times to the “coming” of Christ and yet give no clue as to when that coming might be or even how soon it might be (Rev. 2:5, 16, 22, 23; 3:3, 11). The book of Revelation quite definitely maintains that it is in a little while (1:1; 22:6), near (1:3; 22:10), and soon (2:16; 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20). At the same time, the end is only contemplated in connection with Christ’s return, not before.

The letters to the seven churches are distinctly different from the New Testament epistles in that they come from Jesus Himself and, when viewed together as a group, display a stylized structure, chiastic symmetry, and universally applicable themes. These features suggest that the letters are concerned with more than matters of merely local interest to a few particular churches. The number seven also suggests comprehensiveness in terms of their scope and application. Furthermore, the fact that the letters are permeated with apocalyptic symbols and ideas gives us reason to conclude that, like the rest of Revelation, these chapters may be intended as prophetic. Jesus Himself seems to suggest a future, as well as a present, application for them (1:19). A brief comparison of the letters with church history confirms this suggestion.

[Dr. Rich]

Stan, as the article suggests, all seven messages, when viewed together show that the warnings in them are concerned with more then matters of historical and local interest of the historical churches.

Taking the 7th message to Laodicea alone would separate all of the messages even if only by time. The 6th message is to those who will go through the time of trouble so by reference, Philadelphia's message could not be for any historic church group.

The 5th message also has serious problems for any historic church since this group will be alive when Jesus comes like a thief. The few in Rev. 3:4 are righteous and perfect and sealed by God, so they too can't be found in any historic church.

The 4th is the one that causes serious problems for Adventists. IF (yes IF) EGW is this women called Jezebel--then this issue alone would or could cause a serious shaking. For those who can be honest with themselves, history proves that EGW was sick or ill all of her life.

But here is the most serious problem with this group being a historic church; Rev. 2, verse 22 shows that those who commit adultery (spiritual) with her will go into the GREAT TRIBULATION and in verse 23 they will also be killed by the pestilence (probably the 7 last plagues). Rev. 7:14 points to the same "GREAT TRIBULATION".

So please tell me how in the world could the messages to Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea be even considered to be for historic churches? Since these four are impossible to be historic churches, then perhaps the first three are also not for any historic churches. To me, they all (all seven as a complete number) are for ONLY the Kingdom of Heaven as found in Matthew 25's Ten Virgins, and IF the SDA Church is the KOH right now, then it is in serious trouble! Don't kid yourself, and please don't take this lightly.

[jsm]

Rich, your Bible must read differently that mine. Those in the 6th [Philadelphia] church period were not to go through the time of trouble, as you say.

Instead, Jesus told them: "Because you have kept the word of My patience, I ALSO WILL KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL, which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to test those who dwell upon the earth." Revelation 3:10.

That "hour of trial" will "come upon ALL THE WORLD" [as described in chapters 6-11 and 16 of Revelation] as concluding events of the final Laodicean church period. And these final events will be rapid ones.

[Musicman1228]

They are kept from 'the hour of trial' because they have already passed their test. They are not kept from this test because they are already dead. These people have passed their test of truth before the Great Tribulation begins. This Great Tribulation is for the whole world, the test these people in Philadelphia have passed was only for the Kingdom of Heaven and is called by SDA's as the 'Shaking'. You can read about this group in Matt. 25:1-13.

[jsm]

The message to Sardis [5th church period] includes the statement: "If you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief." Revelation 3:3.

This has reference to the "open door" start of the investigative judgment in 1844, during the very next [Philadelphia] church period. Revelation 3:8.

In that IJ event, Daniel saw Jesus coming "to the Ancient of Days" in heaven. Daniel 7:13. Most Christians were not aware of this, so to them His coming was "as a thief."

But even with your unusual interpretation, don't you agree that Jesus, in Revelation 4:1, is saying what John sees next will take place AFTER what is described in Revelation 2 and 3?

[jsm]

Being "sick or ill all her life" [as you say] did not make EGW a Jezebel.

That name is applied in the Thyatira period to a so-called Christian who teaches and seduces Christ's servants "to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to Idols." Revelation 2:20. That in no way applies to EGW.

Jesus said of those who do not have this Jezebel doctrine, "I will put on you no other burden." Revelation 2:24.

But to those who "commit adultry with" Jezebel, Jesus will cast them "into great tribulation, UNLESS THEY REPENT." Revelation 2:22.

That certainly cannot apply to those in 7:9 & 14 who are not spared, but go through great tribulation.

The Revelation 2:22 tribulation is more like that in Romans 2:8-9

"But unto those who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, TRIBULATION and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil."

Notice also that those in the Smyrna church period had "tribulation"

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Revelation 2:9.

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, no, not at all. Common sense SHOULD tell you that the seven messages will not do anyone any good IF they are long gone (dead) at the time of the end. What John wrote about in the 4th and 5th chapter (John did NOT provide the chapter breaks) is going on to explain why John's vision was important. The "...show you what must take place after these thing" in verse 1 is a leading paragraph telling John about all of the rest of Revelation and what is going to happen.

Bur first John describes the scene--a scene that has already taken place (as was also pointed out in chapter 12) after Jesus went back to heaven. Chapter 5 is just a continuation of the 4th chapter, but John explains in detail that the Kingdom of Heaven had now been taken away from the blood line of Israel (Matthew 21:43) and the the death of Jesus actually purchased the NEW Kingdom of Heaven (SDAs) and that is why the saints are called BONDSERVANTS.

I know that it appears that no one else other than our little group has been given the insight or understanding such as this and I also know that it will be hard to give up long held beliefs. That is the reason why only a FEW as found in Rev. 3:4 will have overcome the long held false (lies) beliefs--the ones given to this group by the woman "Jezebel" such as "the deep things of Satan" (Rv. 2:24).

Yes, this is all serious stuff but IF what I have presented is true--OR NOT--don't you agree that IT is worth it to fully investigate this issue? Have you every wondered why the graves of James (and Ellen) White have an obelisk placed on them? Have not you ever wondered why George Washington became the first President--and Washington DC was laid out like it was/is?

Yes, all of this is VERY serious and God wanted to give this to John in order to get to the heart of the problem before He gave John what is actually going to happen SHORTLY after the understanding (insight) was presented to the bondservants by the ONE good and faithful servant as found in Matthew 24:45.

It is very clear that this information will not be accepted by the majority and that this majority will be the worst enemies of the FEW--the 144,000 and 5 wise sealed (Philadelphia) after the shaking of the Adventist Church. Please don't laugh or make fun of this serious information like the leaders, teachers and Pharisees did at Jesus' words.

[wayfinder]

The message to Philadelphia is specifically to the 144,000.

Revelation 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore ; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

13 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

The 144,000 are the "priests" of the kingdom of heaven. They are prepared prior to the time of the trumpets. The account in Matthew 24:42-51, is the prophecy concerning the 144,000 bondservants. They are sealed prior to the great tribulation and prior to the "shaking" of the SDA church. They are kept from the time of proving (testing) because they have already proved themselves worthy. It is also clear that the sealing of the 144,000 takes place before the trumpets, see Revelation 7:1-8.

Revelation 14:5 And no lie was found in their mouth, they are blameless.

[jsm]

"The names of the seven churches are symbolic of the church in different periods of the Christian Era. The number indicates completeness, and is symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the symbols used reveal the condition of the church at different periods in the history of the word." AA 585.

"The Lord Jesus sent a mighty angel to make plain to John, by the use of symbols, the things that were to come to pass until the coming of Christ. He was bidden to write the instruction in a book for the benefit of the seven churches. This writing we now have preserved in the book of Revelation, but this book is understood by only a very few. It contains the message for the last days, and we are to dwell much upon these prophecies." EGW in RH 2/14/1907.

Again, I encourage all to study more closely what John wrote in Revelation 4:1, which comes Just after what he was told about the Laodicean period of church history:

THIS IS AN IMPORTANT KEY TO AN UNDERSTANDING OF CHAPTERS 4 through 11.

“After these things [meta tauta] I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, `Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things [meta tauta];'“ Revelation 4:1, Young’s Literal Translation.

“After these things I saw" simply means John SAW the next scenes AFTER what he had seen and heard in chapters 1 through 3.

Then when Jesus said,"Come up hither, and I WILL SHOW YOU what it behoveth to COME TO PASS AFTER THESE THINGS," He clearly meant John would now be shown WHAT EVENTS WILL COME AFTER the chapter 1 through 3 things.

So John is saying:

"AFTER THIS I was shown

WHAT MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THIS."

With this in mind, common sense tells us that the events of chapters 4 and 5 [and all they introduce to us] take place AFTER the events of chapter 3.

[Dr. Rich]

Ok, now we have several opinions, time will prove which one is the truth.

[wayfinder]

The context and chronology do not fit this sequence. The messages to the seven assemblies are over before the Lamb is deemed worthy to receive the book and open it's seals. The promises to the seven assemblies of Revelation 2 and 3 are fulfilled before there is even authority to do so? The events of Revelation chps. 4-5 are obviously the opening door to the kingdom, which must occur before 1844, when we are told by Jesus Himself, At that time the kingdom of heavne will be like 10 bridesmaids.... Matthew 25:1

[Dr. Rich]

That is the way I see it too wayfinder. Stan's opinion just does not make any sense at all because he has Jesus coming like a thief before the events in Rv. 4 and 5. Hmmm?

[jsm]

“After these things [meta tauta] I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, `Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things [meta tauta];'“ Revelation 4:1, Young’s Literal Translation.

So John is saying:

"AFTER THIS I was shown

WHAT MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THIS."

That is, AFTER what he saw and heard in chapters 2 and 3.

With this in mind, common sense tells us that the events of chapters 4 and 5 [and all they introduce to us] take place AFTER the events of chapter 3.

Read more at: http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

Then post your responses here.

Thanks,

Stan

[Dr. Rich]

Stan, I see your way of thinking, but it is apparent that you do not see mine. Not too long ago I totally agreed with your way of thinking, but only because I did not take the time to fully investigate the true meaning of prophecy. When 'thing' start to happen in the near future, I pray that you will remember some of the things that 'we' have provided here. I, as a member of a Sabbath School class do not benefit in anyway from you agreeing with us or not. That is not the point. The point is this; that as a bond servant for Jesus Christ, I must be able to testify to the truth as provided by Him. And that is all I am doing.

[jsm]

I do not claim to have all the answers. We just need to stimulate more prayerful Bible study on end-time prophecies.

"The solemn messages that have been given IN THEIR ORDER in the Revelation are to occupy the first place in the minds of God's people. Nothing else is to be allowed to engross our attention." 8T 302.

Now notice "THEIR ORDER"

1. "The names of the seven churches are symbolic of the church in different periods of the Christian Era." AA 585.

2. "Revelation 6 & 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are the judgments of God revealed." EGW in Maranatha 284.

"The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll. 6T 17.

3. “Solemn EVENTS before us are YET TO TRANSPIRE. TRUMPET AFTER TRUMPET is to be sounded." EGW in Maranatha 257.

“The SEVEN ANGELS stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS. The Lord was going forth TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH.” EGW in Maranatha 284.

Read more at: http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

Then post your responses here.

[jsm]

Zechariah was given a vision of four colored horses, and told: "These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth." Zechariah 6:1-5.

That same phrase "the four spirits" is translated in Daniel as "the four winds."

So we see those same "four winds" in Revelation 6, where they again are shown as four horses.

But Revelation 7:1-3 says those four winds will be held under control until the 144,000 are sealed.

This control is shown in the "series of events shown in Revelation 6-11.

"God cannot forbear much longer. Already His judgments are beginning to fall on some places, and soon His signal displeasure will be felt in other places. There will be a series of events revealing that God is master of the situation. The truth will be proclaimed in clear, unmistakable language." 9T 96.

Those four angels are released in Revelation 9:13-21.

9.13

And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

9.14

Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

9.15

And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

9.16

And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

9.20

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

9.21

Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

A world-wide census was taken when Jesus was born, as well as at other times. These records show the world population was then stabalized at about 200,000,000 -- as in this vision John saw.

So we can expect general war and confusion all over the world when the four angels release the four winds.

"The time is right upon us when there will be sorrow that no human balm can heal. Sentinel angels are now restraining the four winds, that they shall not blow till the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads; but when God shall bid his angels loose the winds, there will be a scene of strife such as no pen can picture." EGW in RH 3/14/1912.

"Events are changing to bring about the day of God, which hasteth greatly. Only a moment of time, as it were, yet remains. But while already nation is rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, there is not now a general engagement. As yet the four winds are held until the servants of God shall be sealed in their foreheads. Then the powers of earth will marshal their forces for the last great battle. Satan is busily laying his plans for the last mighty conflict, when ALL will take sides." 6T 14.

[Overaged]

The 4th is the one that causes serious problems for Adventists. IF (yes IF) EGW is this women called Jezebel--then this issue alone would or could cause a serious shaking. For those who can be honest with themselves, history proves that EGW was sick or ill all of her life.

So please tell me how in the world could the messages to Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea be even considered to be for historic churches? Since these four are impossible to be historic churches, then perhaps the first three are also not for any historic churches. To me, they all (all seven as a complete number) are for ONLY the Kingdom of Heaven as found in Matthew 25's Ten Virgins, and IF the SDA Church is the KOH right now, then it is in serious trouble! Don't kid yourself, and please don't take this lightly.

There is not one characteristic named in any of these seven letters to the seven churches, that cannot also have an application to churches today. With a bit of looking around, it is easy to find churches meeting some or all of the characteristics named therein.

Your comment re Ellen G White shows a real lack of insight. If you look at the verse and see it's description of Jezebel; it is easy to see it could not possibly be referring to Ellen White. The wording says of Jezebel: "the woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess;" and your theory meets it's dead end right there, for Ellen White was very adamant to never call herself a prophet.

One of the many weak spots in your diatribes on the book of Revelation is the fact that you do not seem to be able to see what these books are really about. I have not once seen you refer to Jesus as the central figure in this wonderful prophecy of the seven churches. The very first book, the very first verse of revelation makes Jesus centrall to the prophecy. "The Revelation of Jesus Crist." Jesus is the central theme of The Book of Revelation; yet in your posts here, you don't talk much about Him. I find it hard to believe your messages, so devoid of Jesus