Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Archie777]

Dr. Rich, it looks as though we view martyrs and the 144,000 differently. Thank you for sharing your understanding of it.

[Archie777]

Musicman, thank you for sharing your findings regarding time and prophecy. It seems to me almost anything is possible if we consciously choose to disregard what Jesus revealed through Ellen White.

[wayfinder]

Richard, lets start out with something simple. In Matthew 17:10-13, Jesus states matter of fact, indeed Elijah will come and restore all things. But Elijah has already come.... The first Elijah who came was the one who confronted Jezebel and the 400+ prophets of Baal. How many prophet Elijahs were there at that time? ONE. When Jesus said , "But I say to you Elijah already came and they did to him whatever they wished". The disciples knew he was speaking of John the Baptist. How many John the Baptists were at the time of John the Baptist? ONE. Jesus said "Elijah is coming and will restore all things". How many prophet Elijahs do you say there will be at the end. I say ONE. The faithful and wise bondservant is the promised "prophet Elijah" who will restore all things. ONE.

[John317]

... If the 1st Trumpet has not sounded then it is impossible for the 7th Trumpet to have sounded. We also know this because the kingdom of this world HAS NOT become the Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ, the Great Tribulation has not happened, neither have the 7 Bowls of Wrath which occur right after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

I believe the first through the seventh trumpets have already sounded. We're living just before Christ returns. I won't put a particular time on it but we don't have long. (Besides the end can come for anyone at any moment anyway. It came for my four year old grandson the day before yesterday. His last words to his mom was that he loves Jesus!) It could be a few years or it could be 20 or 30 years. I don't think God is waiting for a certain number of years. He's waiting for a people to be ready.

There are hundreds of millions of people, including many Christians, who aren't aware that the first trumpet sounded. For one thing, it sounded before the people alive today were born. If we're not aware of what we're looking for, we're unlikely to know whether we've seen it or not. I think you may be looking for something that won't happen. For instance, if you're expecting those trumpets to be fulfilled literally, you will wait forever and not see them fulfilled that way. The same applies to all the trumpets, including the seventh.

Can you explain how it would happen that after 2000 years, not a single trumpet has been sounded?

Do you believe the seals have occurred?

Is it possible that the seals and the trumpets are simultaneous and that they began not long after the time of John and continue until the Second Coming? That would mean each trumpet sounding occurs over a period of time, some lasting longer than others.

I believe the seventh trumpet started sounding in 1844 and is still sounding NOW. We're not living under the sixth trumpet but under the seventh, which occurs just before Christ returns. It sounds while the nations are angry, during the pre-Advent Judgment, and while the seven last plagues are falling. Of course the plagues haven't fallen yet, and they won't fall until after the national and the international Sunday law and the end of human probation. But that time is not far in the future.

The Three Angels Messages are to be given in order to help people avoid the plagues. That's one of the main purposes God raised up the Seventh-day Adventist church-- to help people avoid the plagues and prepare for Christ's return. People won't know to do that, however, if they think the first trumpet hasn't even sounded yet. They could be getting ready for the first trumpet when it's actually time to get ready for the Latter Rain and the Second Coming. Naturally, though, if one doesn't believe in the Latter Rain-- or know anything about the Early Rain-- it's very difficult to get ready for it.

[Musicman1228]

Musicman, thank you for sharing your findings regarding time and prophecy. It seems to me almost anything is possible if we consciously choose to disregard what Jesus revealed through Ellen White.

Archie,

I do not ignore the words of Jesus Christ. I am one of the few people I know that place His words and teachings as given by His own eyewitness disciples over any other testimony, and this includes EGW. I don't ignore her writings, I just choose to believe Jesus over her.

[Overaged]

Archie,

I do not ignore the words of Jesus Christ. I am one of the few people I know that place His words and teachings as given by His own eyewitness disciples over any other testimony, and this includes EGW. I don't ignore her writings, I just choose to believe Jesus over her.

You have a lot of "I" trouble in your eisegesis.

[Overaged]

As far as Mat.18, I would be careful about saying that Jesus did not mean what He said. Peter said How many times...seven times. Jesus no not seven, but seventy times seven. In other words Jesus says, not just one seven but seventy sevens. If Jesus was not speaking specifically than why not just say forgiveness has no limit.

The number actually works out to 490; so you are saying that parents are only allowed to forgive their children 490 times, and then that's it? You should be careful about saying that Jesus didn't mean something other than literal. Because that makes no sense at all.

[John317]

No John, their beliefs are not like art. Unless you're saying they have a creative imagination. I'll go along with that.

No, I'm just pointing out that just because someone can't see something doesn't mean it's not there. Many people didn't see the Son of God standing right in front of their eyes-- they thought it was just a man like any other man-- but it only goes to show they were blind.

[Dr. Rich]

overaged, if you are having a problem with all of this because it does not agree with EGW, then I understand why you are so defensive. MM and wayfinder explained what they did in a very nice way and if you don't agree we really don't care.

And Richard, as for the two witnesses, before you come to the understanding that everyone who is sealed will not die, please check out what happens to them. Those who find salvation from every nation of the world during the time of trouble, are saved because of the acts of the saints (those who have been sealed) and have given their lives, just as Jesus did, to save all of them. This is why the question comes up as to how this group of people (a numberless group because everyone will have a choice to believe the truth being told by the 144k and the 5 wise) they have been saved.

[Guest]

Rich do you have something that shows that, other than your own meanderings? Because my Bible says this concerning the sealed ones:

Rev 7:16,17 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

[Guest]

How many prophet Elijahs do you say there will be at the end. I say ONE. The faithful and wise bondservant is the promised "prophet Elijah" who will restore all things. ONE.

You have been so busy looking for something new, and trying to guess at what's prophecy and what's not, that you don't even understand that the end time started in 1844, NOT 1994.

The last Elijah prophet has already come too. It was Ellen White. And you have treated her just like they treated John the baptist.

No one man is going to give the truth to everybody else. That simply is not biblical. You can say that Jesus was giving a prophecy to that effect by twisting His illustration about the bondservant all you want, but that doesn't make it fit.

Not only does that not make any sense, but it doesn't jive with Daniel and Revelation. So then you must twist and stretch those also, to try and MAKE it fit.

I'll say it again. Pay attention this time:

You say of the illustration about the bondservant, that since Jesus said "A bondservant" (singular) that it has to be a prophecy referring to one man on the face of the earth. That is ridiculous. That would be like an employer who employs 1000 people, making the statement: "If I come back from lunch and find a worker, or "an employee" (singular) goofing off, I'll fire him.

Is he talking about one specific person, or does that include any and all of them?

We are all empoyees of Jesus. Those that walk in His light are ALL bondservants, and what Jesus said applies to all of us. NOT one person.

[John317]

To the moderator: do your instructions mean that when I see a difference in understanding between some particular point that a forum member makes using EGW as a reference that I am now not allow to draw conclusions and point out that difference using Bible texts? In other words, are you saying that on this thread there can be no alternatives in proofs other than EGW writings?

Please give me a ruling on this.

Yes, you can point out that you believe the Bible teaches something other than what another members says. The problem comes when people say the supposed "contradiction" is evidence that someone is a liar or a false prophet or when the "contradiction" becomes the focus of the discussion. The main thing is, we don't want all the theolgoy discussions to be hijacked and filled with posts about questions related to Paul and Ellen White or the biblical canon. Those are important questions, but they need to discussed on threads where those are the main focus.

[wayfinder]

Richard you don't understand because you refuse to consider all the information. Jesus says "indeed the prophet Elijah is coming and will restore all things". It is clear that this has not happened yet, therefore Ellen White is ruled out as as possible candidate. The prophecy concerning the faithful and wise bondservant, informs us that the F&W bondservant is alive and actively feeding his fellow bondservants when his Master returns. In the days of Elijah there were the schools of the prophets, and like in those days the endtime Elijah will be teaching fellow prophets (144,00) and they will take the truth to the kingdom of heaven throughout the whole SDA world. You are correct that He does not do it alone. Are you interested in helping in this endeavor?

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, that is a good question. Rev. 7:16,17 is talking about the numberless multitude that are saved because of the acts of the saints (144K). You will see that this group actually comes from every nation and all tribes and races. Therefore this group could not be the 144k which is explained in the verses (3-8) before.

Here is the thing: Jesus' death paid the penalty for the first fruits of the living, the 144K and the 5 wise virgins. Therefore, it should have been all over but for the actions (works or deeds) for these who gave up their lives for the bride that comes out of the time of trouble. That is why you see the question in verse 13.

Rev. 19:7 and 8 show that the Bride has MADE HERSELF READY by clean fine linen FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS.

It may take some time for this to sink in, but the truth is all there for those who can see it.

[Overaged]

overaged,... if you don't agree we really don't care.

I know.

[Overaged]

Here is the thing: Jesus' death paid the penalty for the first fruits of the living, the 144K and the 5 wise virgins.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Musicman1228]

Overaged, Jesus did not die for the ungodly, He died for the Kingdom of Heaven. He died for those in the world that will willingly become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Passover Lamb was not killed for anyone but the first born of Israel, which at that time was the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus died to pay the penalty for the firstfruits of the Kingdom, those that will become the priests of God and of the Lamb. The Great Multitude comes out of every people, kindred, tongue and people, BUT ALL OF THEM are IN the Kingdom of Heaven, they are NOT in the Kingdom of the World.

Jesus Christ did not die for the sins of the world, He ONLY died for to pay the penalty for the sins of the Kingdom of Heaven; we must divest ourselves of sin through the process of sanctification. Then and only then does the death of Jesus Christ have any affect on whether we receive eternal life.

It is up to us to choose life or choose death. Anything other than the words of Jesus Christ and Him alone bring death.

[Overaged]

The Words Of Musicman1228

Overaged, Jesus did not die for the ungodly, He died for the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus Christ did not die for the sins of the world, Anything other than the words of Jesus Christ and Him alone bring death.

The Words Of Jesus:

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

[Overaged]

The Words Of Musicman1228

Overaged, The Great Multitude comes out of every people, kindred, tongue and people, BUT ALL OF THEM are IN the Kingdom of Heaven, they are NOT in the Kingdom of the World.

Anything other than the words of Jesus Christ and Him alone bring death.

The Words Of Jesus

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[Overaged]

The Words Of "Dr" Rich

Richard, that is a good question. Rev. 7:16,17 is talking about the numberless multitude that are saved because of the acts of the saints (144K).

The Words of Jesus

Rev 7:16-17 does talk about the "numberless multitude," but nowhere does it say that this multitude was there because of anything that the supposed 144000 did. You will not find that written in the words of Jesus anywhere.

But, what you will find is that anyone who is saved; is saved ONLY because of the act/s of Jesus. Jesus is our Savior - not the 144000:

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

[Overaged]

Stan, it then appears that your foundation for your 'investigation' is faulty from the beginning since the Catholic Church was faulty from the beginning too--right? The seven messages are NOT for any people living way back in history my friend. Take the 5th message. If they don't wake up (Spiritually) Jesus will come when they are sleeping--so this can't possibly be for any group in past history. The 6th message is to a group of people who God finds nothing wrong with so these can only be the 144,000 who are sealed just prior to the tribulation.

The truth of the 7 messages is this--that all of them are for those in the Kingdom of Heaven living in the last generation. They are characteristics of this group so those who are wise can and will be able to know just who they are and can acknowledge their problems and repent.

Therefore, the poor bishop was seriously mistaken, just as all of the others who are now dead. Speaking of this, Daniel 12:10 points out the problem with EGW's words. Since she has long been dead and God's word is clear that only those who are 'wise' AND living in the last generation will understand correctly, we are in danger to use anything she has written or said about last day events.--Right? (Or you must not believe what God told Daniel was true.)

The Catholic Church is not totally wrong about everything. Error is most often mixed with truth. The fact remains that all scripture is for all people, all of the time. This would most certainly include the prophecies of Daniel and The Revelation. There is someting in every verse of both these Books, for every person of every age. In Daniel 11:32 for eg, we are told: "they that do know their God shall be strong and do exploits..." Why would this not be true for anyone past, present, or future?

[Dr. Rich]

Overaged wrote: "The Catholic Church is not totally wrong about everything. Error is most often mixed with truth. The fact remains that all scripture is for all people, all of the time. This would most certainly include the prophecies of Daniel and The Revelation. There is something in every verse of both these Books, for every person of every age. In Daniel 11:32 for eg, we are told: "they that do know their God shall be strong and do exploits..." Why would this not be true for anyone past, present, or future?"

Ok then, name me ONE thing that is NOT wrong with the Catholic Church. The scripture that is for all people is the same scripture that Jesus used to teach and read from. He did not have any New Testament and if you would read the book called "The Spirit of the Church" by Neufeld and Sterling you would then understand the problems with the New Testament.

Sure, Daniel and Revelation is important for every generation for without them you would not know in what time period you were living. So IF you believe that there is something in every verse, then please tell me what it is in Rev. 2:2 that is important to know?

And if error is mixed with truth, then tell me who and how one could tell the difference?

Do you know what significance the horns on the Viking helmet is/was?

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Here is the thing: Jesus' death paid the penalty for the first fruits of the living, the 144K and the 5 wise virgins.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Not one of these texts was spoken by Jesus Christ. They were spoken by someone that claimed to be of Jesus but those are NOT His words they are Paul's words.

When I said I believe the words of Jesus ONLY I meant HIS words, not someone's idea of what He said. Paul NEVER knew Jesus (either in the flesh or in the Spirit), and neither did Luke who was not an eyewitness disciple. Show me where Jesus said these things in John, Matthew or ever Mark (who wrote for Peter) and I'll believe you.

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the[of] Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. Matt. 24:5.

Why should I take your word, or Paul's word, or EGW's words as the words of Jesus Christ when I have HIS own words that speak for themselves?

As to the 1John text: yes Jesus died for the whole world, as long as they don't remain IN the world but come INTO the Kingdom of Heaven. These two kingdoms cannot co-exist, you must either be in one or the other. If you believe a lie as if it is the truth then you are NOT in the Kingdom of Heaven, no matter how much you 'believe' you are.

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

As far as Mat.18, I would be careful about saying that Jesus did not mean what He said. Peter said How many times...seven times. Jesus no not seven, but seventy times seven. In other words Jesus says, not just one seven but seventy sevens. If Jesus was not speaking specifically than why not just say forgiveness has no limit.

The number actually works out to 490; so you are saying that parents are only allowed to forgive their children 490 times, and then that's it? You should be careful about saying that Jesus didn't mean something other than literal. Because that makes no sense at all.

If you had insight you would know the context in which Jesus placed the limit of forgiveness. As in my previous post it was pointed out that Jesus was giving an answer to Peter in context. The limit of forgiveness is a function of "a" seven and seventy, as God forgives iniquity. This limit of 490 was first Sabbath year violations, which in the case of the children of Israel occured over a period of more than 1000 years. Then the second limit was over a period of 490 years. The last seven being a seven of Sabbath years, which was literally 49 years. This limit was then seventy times 49 years or 3430 years, so in fact you could consider this as limitless in a lifetime, but not in eternity.

[Overaged]

If you had insight you would know the context in which Jesus placed the limit of forgiveness. As in my previous post it was pointed out that Jesus was giving an answer to Peter in context. The limit of forgiveness is a function of "a" seven and seventy, as God forgives iniquity. This limit of 490 was first Sabbath year violations, which in the case of the children of Israel occured over a period of more than 1000 years. Then the second limit was over a period of 490 years. The last seven being a seven of Sabbath years, which was literally 49 years. This limit was then seventy times 49 years or 3430 years, so in fact you could consider this as limitless in a lifetime, but not in eternity.

Since I don't have insight and you do; tell us: When are you going to answer my question about parents and how many times they are allowed to forgive their children?