Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Guest]

Zechariah was given a vision of four colored horses, and told: "These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth." Zechariah 6:1-5.

That same phrase "the four spirits" is translated in Daniel as "the four winds."

So we see those same "four winds" in Revelation 6, where they again are shown as four horses.

But Revelation 7:1-3 says those four winds will be held under control until the 144,000 are sealed.

This control is shown in the "series of events shown in Revelation 6-11.

"God cannot forbear much longer. Already His judgments are beginning to fall on some places, and soon His signal displeasure will be felt in other places. There will be a series of events revealing that God is master of the situation. The truth will be proclaimed in clear, unmistakable language." 9T 96.

Those four angels are released in Revelation 9:13-21.

9.13

And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

9.14

Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

9.15

And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

9.16

And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

9.20

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

9.21

Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

A world-wide census was taken when Jesus was born, as well as at other times. These records show the world population was then stabalized at about 200,000,000 -- as in this vision John saw.

So we can expect general war and confusion all over the world when the four angels release the four winds.

"The time is right upon us when there will be sorrow that no human balm can heal. Sentinel angels are now restraining the four winds, that they shall not blow till the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads; but when God shall bid his angels loose the winds, there will be a scene of strife such as no pen can picture." EGW in RH 3/14/1912.

"Events are changing to bring about the day of God, which hasteth greatly. Only a moment of time, as it were, yet remains. But while already nation is rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, there is not now a general engagement. As yet the four winds are held until the servants of God shall be sealed in their foreheads. Then the powers of earth will marshal their forces for the last great battle. Satan is busily laying his plans for the last mighty conflict, when ALL will take sides." 6T 14.

Good post.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

The 4th is the one that causes serious problems for Adventists. IF (yes IF) EGW is this women called Jezebel--then this issue alone would or could cause a serious shaking. For those who can be honest with themselves, history proves that EGW was sick or ill all of her life.

So please tell me how in the world could the messages to Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea be even considered to be for historic churches? Since these four are impossible to be historic churches, then perhaps the first three are also not for any historic churches. To me, they all (all seven as a complete number) are for ONLY the Kingdom of Heaven as found in Matthew 25's Ten Virgins, and IF the SDA Church is the KOH right now, then it is in serious trouble! Don't kid yourself, and please don't take this lightly.

There is not one characteristic named in any of these seven letters to the seven churches, that cannot also have an application to churches today. With a bit of looking around, it is easy to find churches meeting some or all of the characteristics named therein.

Your comment re Ellen G White shows a real lack of insight. If you look at the verse and see it's description of Jezebel; it is easy to see it could not possibly be referring to Ellen White. The wording says of Jezebel: "the woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess;" and your theory meets it's dead end right there, for Ellen White was very adamant to never call herself a prophet.

One of the many weak spots in your diatribes on the book of Revelation is the fact that you do not seem to be able to see what these books are really about. I have not once seen you refer to Jesus as the central figure in this wonderful prophecy of the seven churches. The very first book, the very first verse of revelation makes Jesus centrall to the prophecy. "The Revelation of Jesus Crist." Jesus is the central theme of The Book of Revelation; yet in your posts here, you don't talk much about Him. I find it hard to believe your messages, so devoid of Jesus

I'll have to say amen to that. And yet they claim to be His most devout followers. Also they can read the words of Jesus, (all the many times He calls for people to have faith) and turn around and say they don't need faith. It takes faith just to believe the words in red are really His, if you think about it. Especially since they believe part of the Bible was inspired by Satan.

[Dr. Rich]

WOW--are you seriously mistaken--or what?? Jesus Christ is NOT the main issue in Revelation, it is the INFORMATION that Jesus did not know when He was coming back that His Father now told Him (a true revelation for Jesus to know) that is central to all of the prophecies. It is no wonder you are so messed up in your thinking.

If you believe this woman in the 4th message is someone else, then who might this be? EGW never denied that she received visions from God and then went on to tell us about them and write about them. That by description makes her a prophet.

BUT--you are seriously forgetting the word "IF". And you refuse to even consider that what I wrote might be true. SAD!

[Guest]

Talk about messed up thinking. It is Jesus who is revealing the information, not recieving it. Wow!

[Musicman1228]

Overaged said, "the woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess;" and your theory meets it's dead end right there, for Ellen White was very adamant to never call herself a prophet"

She may not have called herself a prophetess but she never denied it when other people called her a prophetess, this is the same thing. She was continually ill after she became the Adventist prophet. She also did something no other prophet of God ever did; she interpreted her own prophecies. This neither Daniel or John did. All they did was write down what God showed them and left it at that. There is no evidence in their respective prophecies to indicate that either of them knew the meaning of what they saw. They did not need to know, because the time for that knowing was not for thousands of years.

The descriptions listed in the messages to the seven churches cannot be said to compare to any historic church for a simple reason, no one today knows what those actual Asian churches were like. Since the understanding prophecies of Revelation hinge upon the correct interpretation of the prophecies in Daniel (especially ch. 10,11,12) it is no wonder that incorrect interpretations exist today, given the fact that everyone except a few people take the historic perspective that is 160 years (plus) old. What this is saying is that most Adventists today believe that people that were alive at the founding of our church knew just as much if not more than we can know today about prophecies that they would never themselves live to see fulfilled.

EGW said that all prophetic fulfillments ended in 1844, yet she is now dead which means that she could not have actually known whether this was in fact true, given that the prophecies of Daniel 10,11, and 12 would not be unsealed until the appointed time of the end, a time in which she did not live BECAUSE SHE IS DEAD. God was not willing to give Daniel the interpretations of those prophecies and he was God's true and faithful prophet for his time. God told Daniel that those very prophecies about which he so wanted to know were not for him to know, being seal up until the 'time of the end'. If God was not willing to do this for Daniel who would be dead when the prophecies by the time the prophecies were unsealed why do you think God would do for EGW that which He would not do for Daniel? It makes no sense.

The idea that prophetic understanding would not be known until the very end flies in the face of the idea that there will be no new truth that supplants truth we already have. The fact is that new truth about prophecy has and will continue to replace old misunderstandings about truth until all truth is known. To say otherwise limits God in a way that puts him in a box of our own making, and is a very dangerous practice.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, I don't want to argue with you, but read verse one of chapter one of Revelation and you will see that the Father is the one who is revealing this information. He revealed it to His Son and Jesus wanted to reveal it to the bondservants so He had an Angel (He did not come down Himself like Paul said He did for him) as a messenger give this to John, since John was an eyewitness of Jesus during Jesus' one year ministry, so that John could write it all down and preserve it by giving all of the Book of Revelation (seven copies) to the seven churches. Verses 1-3 show that this is exactly what happened. He did this so that His bondservants living in the last generation could no the same thing that the Father told His Son--about the TIMING of when and of what is going to happen.

Therefore, the central issue is not about Jesus Christ, but about events happening and when they will happen at, and during the live time of the last generation on earth. We are right not living the last generation according to the template God provided for us--but will only be understood by the wise or those who have insight. Actually, all of this information is to be given to the Kingdom of Heaven during the time of the last generation. As we can now see here on this forum, this message (what ever it is) will be ridiculed and made fun of by the five foolish virgins who are so set in their ways that they think they are in need of nothing-just as the 7th message to the KOH states.

[Overaged]

Therefore, the central issue is not about Jesus Christ, but about events happening and when they will happen at, and during the live time of the last generation on earth.

[Overaged]

The descriptions listed in the messages to the seven churches cannot be said to compare to any historic church for a simple reason, no one today knows what those actual Asian churches were like.

Any of the various descriptors in the messages to the seven Churches, can be seen in Churches existing today. It is not necessary to know what the "actual Asian Churches looked like" because we can read the words of Scripture for what God is saying about the Churches today.

[Musicman1228]

Revelation is not for ALL churches and all people, it is only for the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end. This Kingdom is described in Daniel 2, Matt 25, and Rev. 2 and 3.

Rev. 1:1 says that this is "The revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE HIM". If Jesus knows everything then why would God have to reveal anything to Him? Obviously, there was something that Jesus DID NOT know that God revealed to Him AFTER He went back to Heaven. That is what the revelation given to John is all about. God gave Jesus a revelation (something He did not already know), Jesus gave it to His angel, who gave it to John, who wrote it down so that at exactly the right time ONE group of people would be able to understand it; that group is the Bondservants. This is not speaking of the church as a whole otherwise Jesus would has said that. This is ONLY for a small group of people for whom Jesus has given the key to unlock the meaning of these prophecies. These are the keys to the KINGDOM. These Bondservants are the 144,000.

So when you try to make the prophecy say that it is for everyone for any time you clearly don't understand the nature of the revelation. The revelation is about when the Bridegroom can go get His bride; the exact day and hour when Jesus will return to earth as a 'thief in the night'. Revelation is about the timing, time and date of when Jesus will return to earth. The early Adventist had it right when they studied time with enthusiasm, but since the 'great embarrassment' we have 'left our first love' and tried desperately to be just like every other church in the world. And that is the problem; we are trying to be like the churches of the world instead of being the God's Kingdom of Heaven. To even suggest today that we must be out of this world is tantamount to saying that we aren't 'main stream' Christians, and this is really bad. But I thought we were supposed to be a 'peculiar people', set apart, in the world but not of the world. Sadly as expressed here on this forum, many want to be like the crowd instead of standing apart and proclaiming the real truth.

[Overaged]

Quote:

Musicman1228 stated:

Revelation is not for ALL churches and all people, it is only for the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end. This Kingdom is described in Daniel 2, Matt 25, and Rev. 2 and 3.

Rev. 1:1 says that this is "The revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE HIM". If Jesus knows everything then why would God have to reveal anything to Him? Obviously, there was something that Jesus DID NOT know that God revealed to Him AFTER He went back to Heaven.

There is nothing to suggest that Jesus did not already know what God gave Him to give to others; it is more likely that Jesus, who was the Creator of the world knew the full story. Jesus also said: "I am the Alpha and the Omega;" meaning that He is the first and the last; the beginning and the ending; He was alive when the universe began; and He will continue to live for as long as it exists. He must have had knowledge of what God told to Him.

Even if Jesus didn't know; it still does not mean that the book of Revelation was not intended for all of mankind. There is plenty of evidence to show that the book of Revelation is for everyone who is open to truth.

To summarize briefly the book of Revelation, we can consider the following:

Revelation: Complement and Completion of Daniel.

The book of Revelation is clearly the complement, the completion, and the unveiling of the prophecies of Daniel. But by John’s time Rome, the fourth world power in the Daniel series, had become the historical starting point, just as Babylon had been for Daniel.

The Apocalypse unfolds various features characterizing the period of this fourth world power—its rule, its divisions, the religio-political conflicts, and the triumphant outcome. The Apocalypse outlines the great conflict between the true church and the false in the entire Christian Era. It introduces powers and developments not brought out in Daniel’s cryptic outline.

Revelation: Culminates With Last-Day Crisis.

The Revelation stresses the developments and sequences of the last things, known theologically as eschatology. It sets forth major events of the last days—the final movements in the great conflict of the ages. It outlines God’s last message and appeal to men, that is, to the whole world, not just a select few; the ultimate issues that terminate in the close of probation, the punishments poured out upon impenitent apostates, and the glorious and eternal triumph of righteousness.

It includes the rise of the second advent movement and message, and characterizes the remnant, the seventh and final segment of the true church of the centuries. It is therefore pre-eminently a “present truth” prophecy, highly pertinent for today, and should be understood in relation to the expositional background of the centuries.

The book of Revelation throws light and understanding upon the Old Testament prophecies, especially the predictions of Daniel. The symbols and time periods of the two great apocalyptic prophecies, Daniel and the Revelation, are tied inseparably together.

When John was on Patmos; his first vision began: "a loud voice like a trumpet" told him "Write what you see in a book, and send it to the seven churches." (Rev 1:10-11). The Church is not supposed to keep these Bible truths to themselves; they are to share it with the entire world. And the so called KOH is not confined just to the Adventist Church.

[MichaelTheArch]

Check this out!

The starting point for the 2300 day prophecy was not 457 B.C. It was 333 B.C. and I can prove it.

I was reading this website

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/date_set.html

when I came to a part that was discussing the 6 day war in 1967,

"The most coveted and contested property in all Israel is the temple mount. In 1967 at the victorious culmination of the 6 day war, Israel captured the temple mount. For the first time in over 2,300 years, Israel again had control of the holiest site in Judaism."

The author mentioned that it had been over 2,300 years since this was, so I was immediately reminded of this prophecy in Daniel:

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. - Daniel 8:14

I then subtracted 2,300 years from 1967 and it brought me to 333 B.C. I then Googled that year and found this sticking out at me like a sore thumb:

1967 - 2300 = 333 B.C. Alexander the Great takes Jerusalem. It was not taken back until 1967, exactly 2300 days (years) after he took it...Side note: The fact that there is no year zero is not significant when counting years - only centuries. Do the math - 2300 - 1967 = 333 B.C. Zero has nothing to do with it

After this, i then go to read the whole chapter, and there it is! The ram, Medo-Persia, being defeated by the Goat, Greece and Alexander the Great.

The starting point of the 2,300 years is Alexander's defeat of Medo-Persia and the subsequent take over of Jerusalem in 333 B.C.

We are in the final generation my friends! The cleansing of the sanctuary began in 1967, not 1844, as 7th day Adventists previously thought. Read Daniel 8 Revelation 10 "..Thou must prophecy again...."

Daniel 8:20 (King James Version)

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Daniel 8:21 (King James Version)

21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Daniel 8:1-14

1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Daniel 8:1-14, King James Version)

Paul is in Athens, Greece when he says this:

Acts 17:31 (King James Version)

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Fasten your seat belts everyone! A treaty is about to be signed. It has been 43 years since the 6 day war, leaving 7 years remaining until the 50th year (Pentecost!)

[Overaged]

Check this out!

The starting point for the 2300 day prophecy was not 457 B.C. It was 333 B.C. and I can prove it.

I was reading this website

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/date_set.html

when I came to a part that was discussing the 6 day war in 1967,

"The most coveted and contested property in all Israel is the temple mount. In 1967 at the victorious culmination of the 6 day war, Israel captured the temple mount. For the first time in over 2,300 years, Israel again had control of the holiest site in Judaism."

Fasten your seat belts everyone! A treaty is about to be signed. It has been 43 years since the 6 day war, leaving 7 years remaining until the 50th year (Pentecost!)

Unfortunately; your first of several mistakes here is trying to say that literal Israel is going to be the end time people of God. You can't find that in the Bible:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[jsm]

When Jesus said in Mark 1:15, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand," He was talking about the prophecy in Daniel 9 telling about when the Messiah [the Anointed One] was to begin His ministy.

The start date for this period is the same as that for the 2,300 days, as is so well explained in the following from GC 326-328. And it clearly gives 1844 as the end of the 2,300 year prophecy.

The angel had been sent to Daniel for the express purpose of explaining to him the point which he had failed to understand in the vision of the eighth chapter, the statement relative to time--"unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." After bidding Daniel "understand the matter, and consider the vision," the very first words of the angel are: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy Holy City." The word here translated "determined" literally signifies "cut off." Seventy weeks, representing 490 years, are declared by the angel to be cut off, as specially pertaining to the Jews. But from what were they cut off? As the 2300 days was the only period of time mentioned in chapter 8, it must be the period from which the seventy weeks were cut off; the seventy weeks must therefore be a part of the 2300 days, and the two periods must begin together. The seventy weeks were declared by the angel to date from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem. If the date of this commandment could be found, then the starting point for the great period of the 2300 days would be ascertained.

In the seventh chapter of Ezra the decree is found. Verses 12-26. In its completest form it was issued by Artaxerxes, king of Persia, 457 B.C. But in Ezra 6:14 the house of the Lord at Jerusalem is said to have been built "according to the commandment ["decree," margin] of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia." These three kings, in originating, reaffirming, and completing the decree, brought it to the perfection required by the prophecy to mark the beginning of the 2300 years. Taking 457 B.C., the time when the decree was completed, as the date of the commandment, every specification of the prophecy concerning the seventy weeks was seen to have been fulfilled.

"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"--namely, sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years. The decree of Artaxerxes went into effect in the autumn of 457 B.C. From this date, 483 years extend to the autumn of A.D. 27. At that time this prophecy was fulfilled. The word "Messiah" signifies "the Anointed One." In the autumn of A.D. 27 Christ was baptized by John and received the anointing of the Spirit. The apostle Peter testifies that "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power." Acts 10:38. And the Saviour Himself declared: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor." Luke 4:18. After His baptism He went into Galilee, "preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled." Mark 1:14, 15.

"And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The "week" here brought to view is the last one of the seventy; it is the last seven years of the period allotted especially to the Jews. During this time, extending from A.D. 27 to A.D. 34, Christ, at first in person and afterward by His disciples, extended the gospel invitation especially to the Jews. As the apostles went forth with the good tidings of the kingdom, the Saviour's direction was: "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:5, 6.

"In the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." In A.D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Lord was crucified. With the great sacrifice offered upon Calvary, ended that system of offerings which for four thousand years had pointed forward to the Lamb of God. Type had met antitype, and all the sacrifices and oblations of the ceremonial system were there to cease.

The seventy weeks, or 490 years, especially allotted to the Jews, ended, as we have seen, in A.D. 34. At that time, through the action of the Jewish Sanhedrin, the nation sealed its rejection of the gospel by the martyrdom of Stephen and the persecution of the followers of Christ. Then the message of salvation, no longer restricted to the chosen people, was given to the world. The disciples, forced by persecution to flee from Jerusalem, "went everywhere preaching the word." "Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them." Peter, divinely guided, opened the gospel to the centurion of Caesarea, the God-fearing Cornelius; and the ardent Paul, won to the faith of Christ, was commissioned to carry the glad tidings "far hence unto the Gentiles." Acts 8:4, 5; 22:21.

Thus far every specification of the prophecies is strikingly fulfilled, and the beginning of the seventy weeks is fixed beyond question at 457 B.C., and their expiration in A.D. 34. From this data there is no difficulty in finding the termination of the 2300 days. The seventy weeks--490 days--having been cut off from the 2300, there were 1810 days remaining. After the end of 490 days, the 1810 days were still to be fulfilled. From A.D. 34, 1810 years extend to 1844. Consequently the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 terminate in 1844. At the expiration of this great prophetic period, upon the testimony of the angel of God, "the sanctuary shall be cleansed." Thus the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary--which was almost universally believed [among ALL early 19th century Christians] to take place at the second advent--was definitely pointed out.

[Guest]

Amen jsm

[wayfinder]

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jesus clearly states that this information is known, or made known, by the Father.

[Overaged]

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jesus clearly states that this information is known, or made known, by the Father.

[wayfinder]

I agree with the assessment of Daniel 9. My post concerned Matthew 24:36 and it's relationship to Revelation 1:1. The word revelation in Greek is apocalypse or a revealing of something, which was previously unknown. According to Jesus own words, as recorded by Matthew, He did not know the day or the hour that He would return to this earth. Revelation 1:1 states that this revelation was given to Jesus Christ from the Father and the reveled information could only be the time (day and hour) which Jesus said He did not know. This information was subsequently given to John through an intermediary, an angel.

[Dr. Rich]

Overaged, wayfinder was just replying to your comment that Jesus knew everything. The verse he gave proves that Jesus did not know EVERYTHING, so this would be the "Revelation" that would be given to Jesus by His Father. This proves that the book of Revelation is about timing and the central theme is not Jesus Christ as many mistakenly believe.

If you think that everyone who calls himself a Christian will understand the book of Revelation, then please tell me who the "FEW" are in Rev. 3:4? Who are those who have insight and are called "WISE" in Daniel 12?

As for your assessment of Daniel 9, we are in agreement with that.

[Overaged]

Overaged, wayfinder was just replying to your comment that Jesus knew everything. The verse he gave proves that Jesus did not know EVERYTHING, so this would be the "Revelation" that would be given to Jesus by His Father. This proves that the book of Revelation is about timing and the central theme is not Jesus Christ as many mistakenly believe.

If you think that everyone who calls himself a Christian will understand the book of Revelation, then please tell me who the "FEW" are in Rev. 3:4? Who are those who have insight and are called "WISE" in Daniel 12?

As for your assessment of Daniel 9, we are in agreement with that.

I am glad we found agreement re Daniel 9. I want to build on that, hopefully, as we post away here!

As far as Jesus "not knowing everything;" I get my idea from textual evidence. The "revelation" actually wasn't "for Jesus" as in the sense that He, our Creator, and Lord, did not know it; but, as the text says; God gave it to Jesus, as the content and portion of knowledge that we needed for salvation. "to shew unto his servants" expressly declares that we, mankind, are the ones who don't know everything.

Jesus, as a child discussing in the Temple with all the "learned doctors" was even then very well aware of His purpose; which is all that "the revelation of Jesus Christ" points to in the first place. Following Jesus around as He approached the time of Calvary; we see many times where He did know everything; and it was other people who did not.

Now; I didn't say that all who call themselves Christian will totally understand 'the revelation' but I did say that "the revelation of Jesus Christ" is for everyone whose heart is open to truth. It is a message of salvation; and this message is for the entire world. If we try to just protect the message and keep it in the Church; then we have a very selfish religion.

[MichaelTheArch]

Thus far every specification of the prophecies is strikingly fulfilled, and the beginning of the seventy weeks is fixed beyond question at 457 B.C., and their expiration in A.D. 34. From this data there is no difficulty in finding the termination of the 2300 days. The seventy weeks--490 days--having been cut off from the 2300, there were 1810 days remaining. After the end of 490 days, the 1810 days were still to be fulfilled. From A.D. 34, 1810 years extend to 1844. Consequently the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 terminate in 1844. At the expiration of this great prophetic period, upon the testimony of the angel of God, "the sanctuary shall be cleansed." Thus the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary--which was almost universally believed [among ALL early 19th century Christians] to take place at the second advent--was definitely pointed out.

Wrong. The 490 year prophecy was started at 457 B.C. If you read Daniel 8 again, you can clearly see the starting point is the first passover after Alexander the Great took the temple mount.

And for those who think God has forgotten Israel, you should remember that there is an appointed time for the Gentiles...The gentiles controlled the temple mount for exactly 2300 years from the Time Alexander the Great (Daniel 8) took control.

It's been over 160 years since 1844...What has happened...How long does it take to cleanse the sanctuary? I'll tell you how long....The ascension of Christ after his resurrection, was a type of entrance into the most holy, the right hand of the Father. What happened 50 days after the ascension? Pentecost!!

We are 43 years past the 6 day war in 1967, leaving exactly 7 years left to Pentecost; the 50 year point. Signs and wonders will follow if what I'm saying be true.

Revelation 10 exposes the Millerite movement as wrong. Go read it again....The Angel claims there will be time no longer (Miller). Read what it says after that:

6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

In other words, "No, you got it wrong, not until the 7th angel begins to sound will the mystery of God be finished...."

Does that diminish the significance of William Miller? No, he drew attention to the sanctuary service.

Daniel 8 is staring Adventists right in the face, and telling you the starting point of the 2300 years is Alexander the great.

1967 minus 2300 = 333 B.C. the year of the first passover from the time Alexander (gentiles) took control of the temple mount.

Exactly 2300 years later, the fig tree took it back. You are severely arrogant if you say God has forsaken Israel. I'm a 20 year Adventist and have read over and over, Ellen White say, "There is more light coming..."

What happened in 1844? Nothing but the attention Miller drew to the sanctuary. What happened in 1967? Gentile control of the temple mount was destroyed, just as Daniel said it would be...The 6 day war.

Read Daniel 8 again. It's staring you right in the face. The ram and the he goat. Do you think the Angel gives Daniel the 2300 days right in the midst of prophesying Alexander the great in vain? 333 B.C.

[jsm]

A complete and careful reading of the Revelation prophecies will clearly show they are by and about Jesus Christ and His ministry. They are NOT primarily about timing, other than the "overcome" words of Jesus to each of the seven churches because He is coming quickly: "behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.

In Revelation 1, Jesus revealed Himself in vision to John as the One who can give us life, because He "has the keys of hell and of death."

He is the One who told John, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

Jesus was then clearly the One who told John what to say to each of the seven churches: "Unto the angel of the church of .... write; These things saith He [followed by His chapter 1 attributes]"

Jesus was also the one who told John in 4:1 to "come up here, and I [Jesus] will show you things which must take place after these [7 churches] things."

Jesus is then called "the Lamb" 25 times throughout the rest of the book.

Then the visions close with clear applications to Jesus:

"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book...

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star...

For I [Jesus] testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

He [Jesus] which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

Revelation 22:7, 13, 16, 18-21.

[Musicman1228]

jsm said, "They [prophecies] are NOT primarily about timing,"

I must respectfully disagree with this statement. Time and timing are all through end-time prophecy; 1260 days, 1290 days 1335 days, 5 months, 3 1/2 days.

So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind.. Rev.9:15.

God is THE God of timing, He invented time, and He has set an 'appointed time' for the events of the time of the end to take place. Why would God include these specific timings if He does not want us to know what they mean and when they are to take place?

[Overaged]

A complete and careful reading of the Revelation prophecies will clearly show they are by and about Jesus Christ and His ministry. They are NOT primarily about timing, other than the "overcome" words of Jesus to each of the seven churches because He is coming quickly: "behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.

While almost all prophecy involves timing of some kind; this is not the primary subject. Christ and Him crucified is the "hub" around which all other "spokes" of doctrine are based upon. All "timelines" in Bible prophecy are centered in "HIS-STORY."

[Musicman1228]

Agreed, but then why are we as SDA's so reticent to do what we did at the beginning and diligently study time? There is a timeless message which is Jesus paying the penalty for our disobedience with His blood; and there is also a message for a specific time, which is the message of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt.24:14). We do one of these pretty well, with the other we are failing because we don't really know what the 'gospel of the Kingdom' really is. I believe that this is because we don't know who we are anymore. There is no longer as sense of urgency in proclaiming a soon coming Savior because many of us no longer believe that He is coming soon. And that is because we don't know where we are in time.

[Overaged]

Agreed, but then why are we as SDA's so reticent to do what we did at the beginning and diligently study time? There is a timeless message which is Jesus paying the penalty for our disobedience with His blood; and there is also a message for a specific time, which is the message of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt.24:14). We do one of these pretty well, with the other we are failing because we don't really know what the 'gospel of the Kingdom' really is. I believe that this is because we don't know who we are anymore. There is no longer as sense of urgency in proclaiming a soon coming Savior because many of us no longer believe that He is coming soon. And that is because we don't know where we are in time.

Well; there are 20 different definitions on "KOH" but I don't know any Bible students, (Adventists included) who are "reticent to study time" because as you say, time is a point of focus in the Bible. Adventists, of course would advise strongly against setting time but not studying time, as it is referenced in Scripture.

By saying that we don't really know what the "gospel of the kingdom" is, are you saying it is different than "the gospel of Jesus Christ?"

Lets look at mat 24:14 and try to explore your idea then:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Are you saying that this text has a specific time? If so when and why?