Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Guest]

Doesn't that go without saying? You're not teaching kindergarten here.

[Dr. Rich]

Ya, I know I'm a dope, but I am a nice dope. I am asking for THAT gift from the Father for this dope. And yes, no one can earn it on their own for if they did, then they would have to pay the penalty and that would the second death. Yes, I knew you agreed with this.

[Musicman1228]

Doesn't that go without saying? You're not teaching kindergarten here.

So you agree that God does not force anyone to be righteous against their will? Then God could not have been the being that FORCED Saul to 'see the light' by blinding him on the road to Damascus, because THAT god did force Saul to go a different direction against his (Saul's) will. You just said that God would never do that, so which is it?

[jsm]

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes [‘WHOEVER believes’ yes ‘WHOEVER BELIEVES’] in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16.

RIGHTEOUSNESS is freely IMPUTED to the new believer:

“And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for RGHTEOUSNESS.” Genesis 15:6.

And then the Holy Spirit works in us in a continual life-long growth process, developing the free gift of IMPARTED righteousness.

“For as the earth brings forth her bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause RIGHTEOUSNESS and praise to spring forth before all the nations.” Isaiah 61:11.

God has always used difficulties to wake people up to their spiritual needs. Deuteronomy 28, etc.

This is not force!

In that vision on the road to Damascus, Saul both saw AND VOLUNTARILY ACCEPTED great spiritual light. His later response shows MUCH APPRECIATION, and is recorded in Philippians 3:3-11

“For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the RIGHTEOUSNESS which is in the law, blameless.

“But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the [imputed & imparted] RIGHTEOUSNESS which is from God BY FAITH; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.”

“This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?... For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of [imparted] RIGHTEOUSNESS by faith.” Galatians 3:2-3; 5:5.

"For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Galatians 2:8-10.

[wayfinder]

John 3:11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things ?

13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven : the Son of Man.

14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

I just added what you left out. It is not enough to believe in the Man, Jesus Christ, but we must also believe in His message. Jesus is referring to His message , in speaking to Nicodemus, He says who, before Him, went up into heaven to hear the truth, no one only the Son of Man who was in heaven and came down. Jesus testified to all He heard from the Father. We must believe in the testimony of the Man Jesus Christ. Verses 19-21, Jesus sums up the judgment "those who practice the". We learn the truth from the testimony of Jesus and practice what we have learned.

[jsm]

Based on what Jesus said, it is obviously necessary for us to BOTH "believe in Him" AND "practice the truth."

This is explained many ways in the Bible:

"I want you to affirm CONSTANTLY, that those who have BELIEVED in God should be careful to maintain GOOD WORKS." "be ready for every good work." "Be a pattern of good works." And be "zealous for good works." Titus 3:8, 1; 2:6, 14.

"Therefore, to him who KNOWS to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." James 4:17.

But as I explained before, we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, but by the "washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." Titus 3:5.

That means a change in our motives from self-serving to Godly love; and that is only possible through the work of the Holy Spirit as we focus our thoughts on Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18.

Matthew 23.25

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter [actions], but within [thoughts] they are full of extortion and excess.

23.26

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter [the mind], that the outside of them [actions] may be clean also.

That which is "within the cup" has been referred to as the "inner adorning" which Jesus said must be clean to make our actions pure.

"The righteousness of Christ consists in right actions and good works from pure, unselfish MOTIVES. Outside righteousness, while the inward adorning is wanting, will be of no avail." EGW in RH 6/22/1886.

Moses explained this obedience from the heart to Israel in Deuteronomy 30, and said this can be done by having the word in both mouth and heart:

30.10

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

30.11

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

30.12

It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

30.13

Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

30.14

But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

And [as in Deuteronomy 30] Jesus explained the importance of both thoughts and words in Matthew 12.35

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

12.36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

12.37

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Now notice how that applied to the thief on the cross:

Luke 23.39

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

23.40

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

23.41

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

23.42

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

23.43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

The importance of our thoughts is explained in Psalms 119.11

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

David prayed for that Word in mouth and heart experience which God had explained through Moses:

Psalms 19.14

Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

And God explained through Paul that the Deuteronomy 30 experience is the "righteousness by faith" process:

Romans 10.1

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

10.2

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

10.3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

10.4

For Christ is the end [the goal] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

10.5

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

10.6

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

10.7

Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

10.8

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

10.9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10.10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[wayfinder]

I will not use this thread for a judgment on Pauline salvation theology, but just so you understand, if Paul meant what you say he means, then he falls short with his own testimony. As far as the thief on the cross, I already posted the fact that according to the testimony of two eyewitnesses (Matthew and Mark {which is Peter's testimony}), Luke's testimony (not an eyewitness) is thrown out. The thief on the cross, as given by Luke never happened the way he says it did (See my post on the "is it fair that" thread).

[jsm]

It should be evident that the words of the two on the cross with Jesus in Luke 23:39-43 are good examples of what Jesus said in Matthew 12.37. "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

And Paul, in Romans 10:6-8, is repeating what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 30:11-14.

Even if you reject what Luke wrote and all of Paul's writings, the inspired information they provide is fully supported in the rest of the Bible.

That said, how about getting back to the End-time Prophecy topic for this thread -- with special consideration given to what is written at:

http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

Write your comments on this thread.

Thanks,

jsm

[Dr. Rich]

Stan, there should be no argument that Paul's words do contain wonderful things because a good counterfeit would do just that. I could argue Paul either way and this is what has caused mass confusion.

Back to the issue--in your book, what do you do with the Atonement? What do you believe was God's reason for giving this to Israel?

[jsm]

This is still off-topic, but there is at least a 3-fold purpose in the atonement of Christ:

1. Without the sacrifice of Christ there can be no forgiveness of sin:

"It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11.

"Without shedding of blood there is no remission." Hebrews 9:22.

2. Through His sacrifice, Jesus demonstrates His love, and draws "all" to Himself.

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me. John 12;32.

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends." John 15:13.

3. Through faith in Him and His sacrifice for us, Christ offers us eternal life:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, not wanting to argue, but the questions were not answered by you and they have everything in the world to do with bible prophecy for the end time. Adventists usually have more knowledge on this issue since we take the Old Testament very seriously. This is what I have found:

The Passover was used by God as a demonstration, or coloring book picture of what the first coming to this earth by Jesus and that He would become the Passover Lamb, thereby making it possible ONLY for those who obey to become saved. (Just as the first Passover made it possible for the first born males not to be killed.) The date for this was 14 days (the evening of) after the first New Moon after the Spring Equinox.

The Atonement was in the around the Fall Equinox and was given to Israel also as a demonstration (picture) of how the cleansing of this earth will take place when there will be no more sin. Without understanding EXACTLY what and how this was done, you would not have a clue as to how the end time events will happen and why. What I am giving you is called "insight". This is the same thing that God gave to His Kingdom.

Your attempt to answer my questions and the remark it has nothing to do with the issue, shows that you have not taken the time to study or examine the Atonement fully. You will find that when Jesus comes in the clouds it will also be around the Fall Equinox. You will also find that Jesus, as our High Priest, had to become cleansed or sanctified (John 17:19), before the tribe of Priests and the Kingdom can become sanctified (Rev. 5:9 & 10).

This may take some time to let it 'sink in', but when it does, it will amaze you how wrong those before us, who are no longer alive, were. Yet, in some fashion, William Miller was very close to coming to this conclusion, he just had the event wrong.

[jsm]

My response was very much about the atonement of Christ in our behalf; and ALL the OT blood sacrifices were symbols to the people of that atoning sacrifice by Christ.

He SANCTIFIED HIMSELF [John 17:19] by living a sin-free life.

We can grow up into His sanctified likeness through obedience [the ‘good ground’ Matthew 13:23; Luke 8:15] and the power of the Holy Spirit on our minds[Titus 3:5], as we focus our thoughts on Christ.

That sanctification process is out fitness for heaven. But our title to heaven is freely given to all who accept Him by faith. John 3:16.

Consider these symbols of His atonement for us:

Leviticus 16:15-16, 30 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins.” “For on that day [the day of atonement] the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Isaiah 53:7, 5-6 “He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.” “But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities…And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”

Note that Jesus sanctified HIMSELF:

John 17:19 “And for their sakes I sanctify MYSELF, that they also may be sanctified BY the truth.

Compare the ABOVE with what I wrote earlier:

1. Without the sacrifice [atonement] of Christ there can be no forgiveness of sin:

"It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11.

"Without shedding of blood there is no remission." Hebrews 9:22.

2. Through His sacrifice [atonement], Jesus demonstrates His love, and draws "all" to Himself.

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth [atoning death on the cross], will draw all men unto Me. John 12;32.

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends." John 15:13.

3. Through faith in Him and His sacrifice for us, Christ offers us eternal life:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [death on the cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

[Dr. Rich]

Well, I can see that you still don't get it. You do not understand the four separate events for the atonement and what each represents. Take your time in your study and go over it in detail until you see each event and then you will have a perfect picture of what is going to happen during the last generation.

Yes, Jesus did sanctify Himself and if He couldn't have done this then we would all be toast. But you did not see that another group, the Priest Tribe in Rev.5:9-10 AND the 5 wise virgins (Kingdom) MUST also become sanctified BEFORE the start of the time of trouble.

And there you have the first three events. The 4th was placing the blood on to the goat of removal (it therefore was not placed upon Jesus) and was NOT killed, but sent out into the wilderness. The wilderness represents the kingdom(s) of the world.

By all rights and means, IT should be all over for those who have already been sealed (Jesus, 144k and the 5 wise)--BUT a question comes up at this time--what about those in the rest of the world and how do they become sanctified? AND that is just the question that one of the "Elders" asks in Rev. 7:13 "who are they, and from where have the come?" John said to the Elder, my lord you know. And the Elder answered with "These are the ones that have come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the "lamb".

Please notice that this word John used for 'lamb' was the same he used when Jesus told Peter to feed his 'sheep'. It can be translated as lambkins or the kin of the Lamb--this one being Jesus.

Please notice that this group stands before the throne while the 144K get to sit upon the throne. Also notice that the 144K and the 5 wise are called 'saints', for they have already been sanctified. Please notice the two groups in Rev. 17:6 and see that their blood has also been spilled. This is NOT talking about those who died a long time ago. Also see Rev. 19:2 and you will again see about the blood of the bondservants. This is evidence that those sealed (saints) will willingly give up their life to save those during the time of trouble.

Here is more evidence: Rev. 19:7-8 where the bride was made ready because of the righteous acts of the saints. Rev. 11:18, shows that there is a time for raising the dead, and a time for giving both the bondservants and the saints (two groups) their reward.

Rev. 6:9-11 is very important to understand. Here we see UNDER the altar the blood and the souls of those who had been killed and they ask how much longer. They were told to rest a little while longer until the number of their fellow bondservants AND brethren (saints) are killed just as they had been.

Here is the thing--the blood is under the altar, meaning that these are the ones who have become sanctified--meaning that these can only be from the 144K and the 5 wise virgins.

The Bride is/are called a numberless multitude that no he could not count, because the invitation is open for everyone in the world and to have a number placed on this would show that these people did not have a choice. Enjoy!

[jsm]

Rich, you are to be commended for your interest in Bible study; but I see too many problems that are not in agreement with what the Bible clearly says. So I choose not to spend much time on this.

I will just present here three of the MAJOR problems with your “4th” atonement event:

You say: “The 4th was placing the blood on to the goat of removal (it therefore was not placed upon Jesus) and was NOT killed, but sent out into the wilderness. The wilderness represents the kingdom(s) of the world.”

1. The BLOOD was NOT placed on the goat of removal. Instead, the priest [representing Jesus] CONFESSED “OVER IT ALL THE INIQUITIES of the children of Israel.” This is an important point:

“And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring THE LIVE GOAT. Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, CONFESS OVER IT ALL THE INIQUITIES of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, PUTTING THEM ON THE HEAD OF THE GOAT, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.” Leviticus 16:20-21.

2. The SINS of those saved ARE FIRST PLACED ON, and borne by, JESUS AS OUR HIGH PRIEST:

“Then Moses made careful inquiry about the goat of the sin offering, and there it was—burned up. And he was angry with Elemazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron who were left, saying, ‘Why have you not eaten the SIN offering in a holy place, since it is most holy, and GOD HAS GIVEN IT TO YOU [the priest, representing Jesus] TO BEAR THE GUILT of the congregation, TO MAKE ATONEMENT for them before the LORD?’” Leviticus 10:16-17

“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has LAID ON HIM [Jesus] THE INIQUITY OF US ALL.” Isaiah 53:6.

3. The “wilderness” in Leviticus 16 does NOT represent, as you say, “the kingdom(s) of the world.” It clearly represents “AN UNINHABITED LAND” both here an in other Bible verses. This represents the circumstances of Satan during the 1,000 years after Jesus comes:

“The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to AN UNINHABITED LAND; and he shall release the goat in THE WILDERNESS.” Leviticus 16:22.

“For he shall be like a shrub in the desert, And shall not see when good comes, But shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, In a salt LAND WHICH IS NOT INHABITED.” Jeremiah 17:6.

”For he shall be like a shrub in the desert, And shall not see when good comes, But shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, In a salt land which is not inhabited.” Jeremiah 17:6.

“Her cities are a desolation, A dry land and a WILDERNESS, A land WHERE NO ONE DWELLS, Through which no son of man passes.” Jeremiah 51:43.

ALL the wicked will be destroyed when Jesus comes:

“‘For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, ALL who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,’ Says the LORD of hosts, ‘That will leave them neither root nor branch.’” Malachi 4:1.

Satan and his angels will then be “bound” in UNINHABITED isolation, by having no one to “deceive”:

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and BOUND him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should DECEIVE the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.” Revelation 20:1-3.

Please do not expect me to dialog further on this and detract from the clear theme of this thread.

"Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Matthew 24:44.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ... this word John used for 'lamb' was the same he used when Jesus told Peter to feed his 'sheep'. It can be translated as lambkins or the kin of the Lamb--this one being Jesus.

What evidence is there that this word, arnion, means "kin of the lamb"? Please give the reference.

Based on all the Greek-English lexicons I've seen, it means "lamb" (singular). I do have one translation (Concordant Literal) that renders it "lambkin," but how do you come up with "kin of the lamb"?

There was a time in the history of extra-biblical Greek when it was diminutive, or "young lamb," but linguists believe that by the time of the NT, it was no longer diminutive but merely "lamb." See Bauer Arndt Gingrich's The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 107. But even if it is diminutive, are you sure it would mean "kin of the lamb" instead of "lamb" or "young lamb"?

I remember we talked about this last year.

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, you did a great job and I do appreciate your reply on this. But I am not sure what you mean "the clear theme of this thread"? What was the purpose of the laver? Was Jesus' death the Passover or the Atonement? Since it was in the Spring, it was the Passover. Therefore, the real Atonement awaits a for a time and that would agree with the 3.5 year time frame. God's year starts at the Spring Equinox and a half year would the the same time as the time for the Atonement. Now, wasn't that simple?

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: So you agree that God does not force anyone to be righteous against their will? Then God could not have been the being that FORCED Saul to 'see the light' by blinding him on the road to Damascus, because THAT god did force Saul to go a different direction against his (Saul's) will. You just said that God would never do that, so which is it?

I think the evidence shows that God knew Saul's heart-- that he sincerely wanted to know the truth-- and therefore God revealed the truth to him.

But revealing the truth to Saul (Paul) was not the same as forcing him to go a different direction against his will. He could have rejected the truth. God didn't make him choose to accept Him. That's the way it is with all of us-- God reveals the truth to us in the Scriptures and through the Holy Spirit, and we are free to either accept or reject. Between the time of the Damascus road until his death, Paul had a choice to make every day whether to accept God's plan for him or to reject it. I'm glad he always chose to accept it, and I hope and pray all of us are making the same choice, too. :-)

[Dr. Rich]

John317 wrote: "What evidence is there that this word, arnion, means "kin of the lamb"? Please give the reference."

We all probably agree that without Jesus' death (His blood) that we all would be toast, so let's not belittle this fact. However, the evidence I gave in my prior post such as John 21:15 where John uses the same word when Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs (plural) could not possible mean that Jesus wanted Peter to feed Him--could it? By having Jesus say "sheep" in both verse 16 and 17, this word had to mean more than one lamb and they would have to belong to Jesus, Him being also known as the Passover Lamb.

Revelation 12:17 show that those who keep the commandments and the testimony of Jesus are born of the same 'Mother' as was Jesus, since verse 5 tells us that 'She' is the same as 'Her' in verse 17. IF this is true, then this group would be, BY RELATIONSHIP, the kin (brothers and sisters) of Jesus, aka the Lamb of God. Therefore, by deduction, the word which you showed us could be 'lambkin', but since it is plural, it could ONLY mean many lambkins-or the kin of the Lamb.

Revelation 19: 7-9 clearly shows that the righteous acts of the saints is what the robes are made from--so this could not be the righteous acts of Jesus. So what are these acts? When Jesus died (gave His life) to pay (bond) the penalty for the first fruits' sins, was not this a righteous act?

[John317]

Quote:

John317 wrote: "What evidence is there that this word, arnion, means "kin of the lamb"? Please give the reference."

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ... the evidence I gave in my prior post such as John 21:15 where John uses the same word when Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs (plural) could not possible mean that Jesus wanted Peter to feed Him--could it?

That's true. Jesus is talking about his followers.

Quote:

DR Rich: .... the word which you showed us could be 'lambkin', but since it is plural, it could ONLY mean many lambkins-or the kin of the Lamb.

Ok, you're talking about the plural word in John 21: 15. I thought you were referring to Rev. 7: 14 where it talks about "the blood of the Lamb." Maybe I misunderstood you.

So it sounds like you're saying, then, that when Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs, He was saying feed my kin. Is that it?

[jsm]

The following is mainly about seals 1 and 2 events, and EGW references are used to support what I find clearly evident by comparing Scripture with Scripture:

Concerning the Revelation 5 scroll, EGW not only relates its importance to THESE LAST DAYS, but also ties in the 6th seal and the Revelation 7 "great multitude" as well:

"The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. Those who have permitted their minds to become beclouded in regard to what constitutes sin are fearfully deceived. Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men. [Revelation 6:12-17 (6th seal) and Revelation 7:9-17 (’great multitude) quoted]. In these scriptures two parties are brought to view. One party permitted themselves to be deceived and took sides with those with whom the Lord has a controversy. They misinterpreted the messages sent them and clothed themselves in robes of self-righteousness. Sin was not sinful in their eyes. They taught falsehood as truth, and by them many souls were led astray." 9T 267-8.

SEAL 1

“Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, ‘Come and see.’ And I looked, and behold, a white horse [see Revelation 19:11]. He who sat on it [Jesus] had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out CONQUERING AND TO CONQUER.” Revelation 6:1-2.

“Clad in the armor of Christ's righteousness, the church is to enter upon HER FINAL CONFLICT. "Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners" (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, CONQUERING AND TO CONQUER.” PK 725.

As a former missionary, I saw personally the need for changes brought about through the SDA Global Mission Initiative of 1990. Church membership has more than doubled since this local lay member program was activated in 1993; and many supporting ministries have helped.

Membership is now well above 16-million, and over 25-million people now worship weekly at SDA churches around the world.

The big difference is that indigenous people now are working as missionaries to their own people IN LARGE NUMBERS; and LIVING at the same socio-economic level.

“I saw that God had children who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They have not rejected the light upon it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully."

“‘The commencement of that time of trouble,’ here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the "latter rain," or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out.” EW 33, 85.

SEAL 2

“When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, ‘Come and see.’ Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to TAKE PEACE FROM THE EARTH, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.” Revelation 6:3-4.

Evidence of this will rapidly become clearer. And world conditions make it evident that seals 3 & 4 events [famine, pests, and increasing confusion] will rapidly follow.

“For when they say, ‘Peace and safety!’ [in ways like a nuclear treaty?] then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.” 1 Thessalonians 5:3

The following was written shortly before WW-I, but has even more significance now:

“ Soon strife among the nations will break out with an intensity that we do not now anticipate. The present is a time of overwhelming interest to all living. Rulers and statesmen, men who occupy positions of trust and authority, thinking men and women of all classes, have their attention fixed upon the events taking place about us. They are watching the strained, restless relations that exist among the nations. They observe the intensity that is taking possession of every earthly element, and they realize that something great and decisive is about to take place, that the world is on the verge of a stupendous crisis.” EGW in RH 11/17/1910.

[John317]

Quote:

jsm(quoting): And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully."

“‘The commencement of that time of trouble,’ here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the "latter rain," or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out.” EW 33, 85.

I believe we're living in the very period she wrote about in that paragraph. None of us will receive the Latter Rain if we haven't allowed the Early Rain to do its work in our lives. It won't be long before Christ will cease his owrk in the sanctuary, but before that time, Christ will pour out His Spirit in order for His faithful people to proclaim the third angels' messages. Ellen White says people who are practicing known sin at that time will not recieve the Latter Rain. We're given the Early Rain now in order to separate sin from us. If we hold on to sin, we prove that we haven't really made Christ Lord of our life and that we love the world more than we love Him.

Quote:

jsm(quoting):

SEAL 2

“When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, ‘Come and see.’ Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to TAKE PEACE FROM THE EARTH, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.” Revelation 6:3-4.

Evidence of this will rapidly become clearer. And world conditions make it evident that seals 3 & 4 events [famine, pests, and increasing confusion] will rapidly follow.

It seems to me that we live today in relative calm and prosperty compared to what will occur in the not too distant future.

Thanks for these quotes. They should make us think very seriously. Are we ready? Are we preparing ourselves and our families and encouraging our friends and neighbors?

[Dr. Rich]

So John317 and Stan, can you tell me how long (time period) the time of trouble will last? Sounds like EGW's idea of the time of trouble is not the same as what most Adventists believe it to be--it being 3.5 years. Hmmm?

Do either of you have anything from her writing about the trumpets in Revelation 8:7-12? I would like to know what her idea of the first 4 trumpets and when these took place. Thanks.

[Musicman1228]

Also, John and Stan, I would like you to show me in Scripture where it speaks of a 'latter rain' which specifies the Holy Spirit. I've looked and can't seem to find anything about this 'latter rain of the Holy Spirit'.

[jsm]

Rich asked:

“So John317 and Stan, can you tell me how long (time period) the time of trouble will last? Sounds like EGW's idea of the time of trouble is not the same as what most Adventists believe it to be--it being 3.5 years. Hmmm?”

----------------

Response:

“Most Adventists” do NOT believe in a 3.5 year time period for the time of trouble, and neither does EGW. She just said it will be very short.

“When Jesus leaves the most holy, His restraining Spirit is withdrawn from rulers and people. They are left to the control of evil angels. Then such laws will be made by the counsel and direction of Satan, that unless time should be VERY SHORT, no flesh could be saved.” 1T 204.

---------------

Rich also asked:

“Do either of you have anything from her writing about the trumpets in Revelation 8:7-12? I would like to know what her idea of the first 4 trumpets and when these took place. Thanks.”

----------

Response:

Please check my former posts on this.

=======

Mm asked:

“Also, John and Stan, I would like you to show me in Scripture where it speaks of a 'latter rain' which specifies the Holy Spirit. I've looked and can't seem to find anything about this 'latter rain of the Holy Spirit'.”

----------------

Response:

“Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE [through His Spirit] SHALL COME TO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN unto the earth.” Hosea 6:3.

John explained that WATER is a symbol of the Holy Spirit:

“Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive.” John 7:37-39.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: So John317... can you tell me how long (time period) the time of trouble will last? Sounds like EGW's idea of the time of trouble is not the same as what most Adventists believe it to be--it being 3.5 years. Hmmm?

It's true that some, perhaps many,-- although I wouldn't say most-- SDAs have adopted some views that are not supported by Ellen White, and one of those is the view that there will be 1335 literal days from the setting up of the abomination of desolation to the Special resurrection and the deliverance of God's people. Some believe there will be 1290 literal days from the beginning of that same period until the beginning of the 7 Last Plagues. Some also believe there will be a period of 1260 literal days from the beginning of the universal Sunday law until the Special Resurrection and deliverance of God's people.

Personally I'm not convinced that we can know exactly how long the Time of Jacob's Trouble will last. I don't think that's been revealed. We know it won't be very long, but exactly long is long we don't know.

If you want to see good information on this subject, see pp. 111-114 of the book, Daniel the Seer of Babylon, by Adventist scholar, Gerhard Pfandl. He shows that the 1335 days began in 508 AD and ended in 1843; that the 1260 prophetic days ended in 1798; and that the 1290 days began in 508 AD and ended in 1798. Adventists accept these historical dates, but many teach that they will have a secondary fulfillment in the future. I don't believe that, but I am always open to evidence and reasoning in the Scriptures.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Do either of you have anything from her writing about the trumpets in Revelation 8:7-12? I would like to know what her idea of the first 4 trumpets and when these took place. Thanks.

There are two excellent volumes that show this information, called The Ellen G. White Exhaustive Commmentary of Daniel and Revelation. It contains everything she ever wrote on those books. They're available now at the Loma Linda Adventist Book center.