Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Musicman1228]

Overaged said, "By saying that we don't really know what the "gospel of the kingdom" is, are you saying it is different than "the gospel of Jesus Christ?"

That is exactly what I am saying. The gospel of Jesus Christ as currently taught by all Christian denominations is entirely different that the 'gospel of the Kingdom' that Jesus spoke about during His ministry on earth. The central focus of what Jesus Christ said that He came to accomplish was to testify to the truth about salvation. You can find the synopsis of what Jesus taught about salvation in John 3; but please don't focus on v.16 as the centerpiece of the teaching, because it is not. The entire teaching clearly defines that we must be INSIDE the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved. To get into the Kingdom one must be born again of the Holy Spirit. To become born again one must practice the truth in order to come into the light, the light being the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Another place to look for what it means to be IN the Kingdom of Heaven is Rev.12, where we see Jesus Christ being born of the Woman (the Holy Spirit). We next see a description of who the brothers and sisters (family members) of Jesus Christ are; those that are born of the same Mother, those who demonstrate this birth by keeping the Commandments of God, and holding on to the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev.12:17).

The SDA church does not teach that a person must be in the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved. We teach the same thing as all the other Christian denominations; that to be saved on must claim Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, with the understanding that you are saved by grace through faith alone. Teaching that one must be in the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved is very risky, because you would then have to define who the Kingdom of Heaven is. The church would feel that is would be embarrassing to say that the SDA church is this Kingdom because more than anything we want to be just like the other Christian churches, not wanting to call attention to ourselves.

We as a church were called to be a peculiar people, but all we want is the same thing ancient Israel wanted and that was to be like the other nations around them. We want to be like the other churches around us, but was ARE a special people and we need to get back to our original message, which is the message of the Kingdom of Heaven. Until we do that we will not be in a position to be different and fulfill the purpose for which God brought us out of the world in 1844.

[jsm]

Israel lost their sovereignty to Babylon – not to Greece.

Daniel 1:1-2 nkjv

1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it.

2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god.

The little horn in Daniel 7 is the same as the last stage of “the horn which started small” in chapter 8 -- and an important consideration is the judgment:

“He did all this and prospered.” Daniel 8:12. “But THE COURT shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion.” Daniel 7:26.

Here is the story in Daniel 8

Daniel 8:21 nkjv

21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king [Alexander the Great].

Daniel 8:8-14 nkjv

8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn [Alexander the Great] was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came a little horn [or ‘horn which started small.” niv. This is pagan & papal Rome] which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land.

10 And it grew up to the host of heaven [‘he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God’ 2 Thessalonians 2:4]; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them [by deception, Satan does here to people, through pagan & papal Rome, what he had done to the angels in heaven. Revelation 12:3-4, 9].

11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host [The Pope claims this right as successor to Peter; based on Matthew 16:13-20]; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away [literally, it was ‘exalted’ or ‘lifted up’ instead of ‘taken away’. The papacy did this by saying the sacraments were actually the body & blood of Christ], and the place [importance] of His [Jesus’] sanctuary [ministry in heaven. v. 10] was cast down.

12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices [the true ministry of Christ in heaven]; and he cast truth down to the ground [‘intend to change times and laws.’ 7:25]. He did all this and prospered. [‘But THE COURT shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion.’ 7:26]

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary [in heaven] and the host [God’s people] to be trampled underfoot?”

14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary [in heaven] shall be cleansed.”

[Guest]

We as a church were called to be a peculiar people, but all we want is the same thing ancient Israel wanted and that was to be like the other nations around them. We want to be like the other churches around us, but was ARE a special people and we need to get back to our original message, which is the message of the Kingdom of Heaven. Until we do that we will not be in a position to be different and fulfill the purpose for which God brought us out of the world in 1844.

This sounds kinda funny coming from someone who's teaching destroys our original message and purpose.

Those who try to interpret the Word according to their own ideas, who read it in accordance with their opinions, will never see the truth, and will die in their sins. Those who eat of the forbidden tree accept Satan’s fallacies in the place of “Thus saith the Lord,” and unless they repent, they will never gain that life which measures with the life of God. As did Adam and Eve, they exclude themselves from the tree of life, the fruit of which perpetuates immortality. . . . {OFC 263}

[jsm]

MM, there are clearly time prophecies in the Bible -- starting with the 120 year prophecy in Genesis 6:3. But that is not the theme or focus of the Bible.

The theme, from Genesis through Revelation, is that we are given the hope of eternal life through Christ, His perfect life as a Man, and His sacrifice for us on the cross.

In John 1:29 He is presented as "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world."

And in Revelation 5:6 He is presented as "a Lamb as though it had been slain" who redeems us by His blood.

He is presented 24 more times in Revelation as the Lamb, and only those whose names are "written in the Lamb's book of life" will be saved. Revelation 22:27.

To each in the seven church periods, Jesus personally makes special and significant promises to those who overcome.

I suggest we each study those promises and pray that we can be overcomers.

As far as the importance of time: Remember that life can end for us at any time; and our relationship with Jesus will then be of the very highest priority.

[Guest]

Amen!

[Musicman1228]

jsm said, "To each in the seven church periods, Jesus personally makes special and significant promises to those who overcome."

I thought that it was impossible to overcome sin. As a matter of fact, I thought that since Jesus was crucified His blood covered our filthy rages making us righteous; that we need to do nothing but 'claim' that He is our personal Savior and believe that we are saved by grace through faith. Not only do we need not DO anything but by doing something (deeds) we make the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross a worthless effort. Is not this so? This is what is taught by every Christian church including many Pastors in the SDA church.

Do you believe that this concept of salvation is the correct one?

[Guest]

jsm said, "To each in the seven church periods, Jesus personally makes special and significant promises to those who overcome."

I thought that it was impossible to overcome sin. As a matter of fact, I thought that since Jesus was crucified His blood covered our filthy rages making us righteous; that we need to do nothing but 'claim' that He is our personal Savior and believe that we are saved by grace through faith. Not only do we need not DO anything but by doing something (deeds) we make the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross a worthless effort. Is not this so? This is what is taught by every Christian church including many Pastors in the SDA church.

Do you believe that this concept of salvation is the correct one?

That is babylonian doctrine MM, not SDA. Although part of the church does buy into it now. Robert believes that. Every wind of doctrine is blowing right now in the SDA church. You are a case in point.

[Overaged]

jsm said, "To each in the seven church periods, Jesus personally makes special and significant promises to those who overcome."

I thought that it was impossible to overcome sin. As a matter of fact, I thought that since Jesus was crucified His blood covered our filthy rages making us righteous; that we need to do nothing but 'claim' that He is our personal Savior and believe that we are saved by grace through faith. Not only do we need not DO anything but by doing something (deeds) we make the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross a worthless effort. Is not this so? This is what is taught by every Christian church including many Pastors in the SDA church.

Do you believe that this concept of salvation is the correct one?

I don't know why you and your crew keep wanting to reinvent the wheel. The Adventist Church's official teachings do not even come close to way you allege.

The Scriptures tell us the following:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

If we don't have to "do anything" then why does He give us power? What's that power for? It was from the Adventist teachings on judgment that I learned how so many only call Jesus "Savior" but they keep forgetting to call Him "Lord." By "doing something" we actually show the efficacy of the cross, rather than invalidating it. Christ died for that law that we broke; but keeping that law on our part only proves His Sacrifice did it's work in our hearts; it does not save us. Only Jesus saves. (John 1:29).

[Dr. Rich]

Check out John 19:28, here we see John verifying what Jesus said to Pilate, that He came to testify to the truth and what He did was now finished. Jesus cried out in a loud voice that it was finished BEFORE HE DIED! Well then, just what was finished? I will stand upon the words of Jesus that His mission was to bring the truth to the world and He did that. So how come people don't care much about what He said, but only care that he was killed? How morbid is that?

So, NO--the gospel that Jesus said (spoke of) was NOT that Jesus died for the sins of the world and rose again, but the gospel about the Kingdom of Heaven. He was NOT the centerpiece of this gospel--it was a gospel of what was promised by contract to those who show their love to their Creator by obeying every word and command that He said.

As for what John the Baptist said about Jesus being the Lamb of God, who saves the world from their sins, was NOT correct in that John the Baptist preached that Jesus was going to be the King of the Jews and restore righteousness (take away all sin) IN HIS LIFE TIME! John the Baptist did NOT believe that Jesus was going to be killed--did he?

[Guest]

As for what John the Baptist said about Jesus being the Lamb of God, who saves the world from their sins, was NOT correct in that John the Baptist preached that Jesus was going to be the King of the Jews and restore righteousness (take away all sin) IN HIS LIFE TIME!

No he didn't. John the Baptist was preaching the truth about Jesus, not falshoods.

At the time of the Saviour's advent there were faithful men and women who had received with gladness the message of John the Baptist, and had thus been led to study anew the prophecies concerning the Messiah. When the early Christian church was founded, it was composed of these faithful Jews who recognized Jesus of Nazareth as the one for whose advent they had been longing. {AA 377}

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came for witness, to give witness about the light, so that all men might have faith through him. He himself was not the light: he was sent to give witness about the light. The true light, which gives light to every man, was then coming into the world. John 1:6-9

John gave witness about him, crying, This is he of whom I said, He who is coming after me is put over me because he was in existence before me. And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. John 1:15,16

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

1Jn 1:7 ...and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, I see the problem here, and that is one of not knowing what John the Baptist's preaching was all about. Even he had a problem when he was in prison because he sent his disciples to see Jesus and ask Him if He was 'the Christ'. Jesus' conversation with His own disciples confirmed this confusion when Jesus said that He was going to die and in three days be resurrected. Peter's words also confirm this because he was also a disciple of John the Baptist.

Jesus' blood paid the price (bond) for the penalty of sin for those who accept this bond and by keeping the commandments and words of Jesus. It did not do away with sin altogether as John the Baptist thought because of the prophecy in Daniel 9:24. (read it)

I have no problem with 1st John's statements--as he was talking to those followers of Jesus Christ. And yes, the Father did send His Son to testify to the truth so that those who obey His words could be saved. Jesus' death made it possible for the righteous not to have to pay the penalty for sin.

[jsm]

Jesus told those in each of the seven churches to OVERCOME. And in Revelation 21:7-8 Jesus said, "He who OVERCOMES shall inherit all things...But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We are to OVERCOME our natural sinful and self-seeking nature by the power of the Holy Spirit as we keep our thoughts focused on Christ and imitate His goodnesss. We are to take His yoke upon us, and learn of Him. Matthew 11:29.

Matthew 1:21 (nkjv used)

“And she [Mary] will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So Jesus did NOT come to save people IN their sins, but “FROM their sins.” And that is through a continual and progressive ABIDING relationship and growth, called sanctification.

John 1:29

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the world!”

Before reading the next reference, consider this: A husband and wife who keep their thoughts and actions focused on the good characteristics of the other will find it easy to maintain a faithful relationship. Unfortunately, many do NOT maintain that ABIDING relationship, and find the devil’s temptations too attractive to resist.

Now read how that applies to our relationship with Christ:

1 John 3:4-6

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He [Jesus] was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins, and in Him there is no sin. WHOEVER ABIDES IN HIM DOES NOT SIN. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

As in a marriage, our relationship with Christ must be based on abiding LOVE if we are to overcome our natural tendency to sin. And love GROWS as we maintain that ABIDING relationship:

1 John 4:16-17 nasb

We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who ABIDES in love ABIDES in God, and God ABIDES in him. BY THIS LOVE IS PERFECTED WITH US, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment.

1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we LOVE the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Jesus said in John 15:4-5

ABIDE in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it ABIDES in the vine, neither can you, unless you ABIDE in Me.

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who ABIDES in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Peter advised us to consider the words of Paul:

2 Peter 3:15-16

And consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother PAUL, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Paul described our growing relationship with Christ in overcoming sin, and the work of the Holy Spirit in that growth process:

Romans 5:1-5

Therefore, having been justified by faith [sins forgiven], we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand [lifelong sanctification process], and rejoice in hope of the glory of God [the goal is to be fully motivated by love, like God, and not by our natural self-seeking]. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God [the goal] has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Obviously this change comes through a renewing of our minds as the Holy Spirit works in us:

Romans 12:2

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing [of our minds] by the Holy Spirit.

[We are also “to maintain good works” V. 8, but those works will not save us]

2 Corinthians 3:18

We all, with unveiled face [by turning to the Lord. V 16], beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord [His ‘goodness’. Exodus 33:18-19], are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Timothy 1:5 nasb

But the goal of our instruction is LOVE from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

[Musicman1228]

Dr. Rich,

You just gave me an 'Ah-Ha' moment. A person that is arrested and put in prison can get out of prison if (at their arraignment) the judge grants them bail whereby the person can post a 'bond' of a specified amount of money in-lieu of their presence in jail. If they don't have the money they can contact a 'bail-bondman' and establish a bond for (usually) about 10% of the amount of the bail set by the court. The bond is secured through tangible property (house, cars, etc.). This bond is not a payment for a penalty for the crime of which they are accused. It is a bond 'in lieu of presence' which is a guarantee that the accused will show up at trial. If the accused does not show up at trial as promised the bond is forfeit, the bail is revoked, and bench warrant is issued by the judge for the capture and detainment of the accused.

The important issue in all of this is that the bond DOES NOT pay the penalty for the accused, the bond merely allows the accused to not be incarcerated until the trial. The accused must still stand trial and face the bar of justice.

Here in America under the law we are presumed innocent until proven guilty. In the Kingdom of Heaven because of sin we are indeed guilty until proven innocent. This is a critical paradigm with which we need to come to grips. We all have been accused (by Satan) of disobedience to the Law of God, the penalty of which is death. This sentence was passed in Eden and all human beings fall under it's weight. A trial date has been set at which time a determination will be made as to the validity of the specifications of the crime committed, a verdict reached, judgement rendered, and punishment or reward delivered. ALL are subject to this process, none will be left out. Jesus Christ is the 'bonds-man' who, by presenting His blood as bail before the Heavenly court, allows those who establish a bond-contract with Him receive bail so that they can remain free until trial. This IS NOT freedom from the upcoming court action, it merely allows a person to exist until the appointed time for the trial to begin. There is NO tangible property that has a high enough value to secure this bond because this is a death sentence case. Therefore the accused must offer something as collateral just as valuable as the bond price (blood of Jesus Christ) as security for the bond; the only thing that could qualify to pay this bond is the life of the accused in service to the bonds-man, Jesus Christ.

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Rev.5:9-10.

During the period of time between the verdict of guilt in Eden and before the trial at the 'appointed time of the end' that establishes innocence these 'bond-servants' must demonstrate a willingness to learn to be obedient to the Law that they are accused of breaking. This is called the process of sanctification. Anyone that wishes to avoid the death penalty must enter this process the end products of which is righteousness. The penalty for this disobedience must still be paid by a death. Bond-service establishes that the 'bonds-man' will pay the bail for one purchased, and that person will then be a bond-servant to the one that paid the bail.

Being temporarily bailed out does not remove the death sentence. That can only be done by proving that you are innocent of the charges and specifications that you disobeyed God's Law. The blood of Jesus Christ does not automatically make you righteous, that must be demonstrated by learning and living the Law. This is done through the process of sanctification. Then at trial Jesus can act as your lawyer and point out to the court that you have indeed demonstrated righteousness and that you are a member of His Kingdom, the Kingdom of Righteousness. Then and only then will the blood of Jesus Christ pay the penalty for your sin, at which time you change from being a bond-servant to being a member of the family of God; having His name and the name of the Father on your forehead.

What is someone called that accepts a benefit but does not pay for it? Thief. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to Jesus Christ. If you declare that you have been set free by the blood of the Lamb and refuse to bond your service to Jesus Christ then you are a thief and a robber. No thief or robber can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. John 10:1.

[Guest]

Jesus told those in each of the seven churches to OVERCOME. And in Revelation 21:7-8 Jesus said, "He who OVERCOMES shall inherit all things...But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We are to OVERCOME our natural sinful and self-seeking nature by the power of the Holy Spirit as we keep our thoughts focused on Christ and imitate His goodnesss. We are to take His yoke upon us, and learn of Him. Matthew 11:29.

Matthew 1:21 (nkjv used)

“And she [Mary] will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So Jesus did NOT come to save people IN their sins, but “FROM their sins.” And that is through a continual and progressive ABIDING relationship and growth, called sanctification.

John 1:29

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the world!”

Before reading the next reference, consider this: A husband and wife who keep their thoughts and actions focused on the good characteristics of the other will find it easy to maintain a faithful relationship. Unfortunately, many do NOT maintain that ABIDING relationship, and find the devil’s temptations too attractive to resist.

Now read how that applies to our relationship with Christ:

1 John 3:4-6

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He [Jesus] was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins, and in Him there is no sin. WHOEVER ABIDES IN HIM DOES NOT SIN. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

As in a marriage, our relationship with Christ must be based on abiding LOVE if we are to overcome our natural tendency to sin. And love GROWS as we maintain that ABIDING relationship:

1 John 4:16-17 nasb

We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who ABIDES in love ABIDES in God, and God ABIDES in him. BY THIS LOVE IS PERFECTED WITH US, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment.

1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we LOVE the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Jesus said in John 15:4-5

ABIDE in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it ABIDES in the vine, neither can you, unless you ABIDE in Me.

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who ABIDES in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Peter advised us to consider the words of Paul:

2 Peter 3:15-16

And consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother PAUL, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Paul described our growing relationship with Christ in overcoming sin, and the work of the Holy Spirit in that growth process:

Romans 5:1-5

Therefore, having been justified by faith [sins forgiven], we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand [lifelong sanctification process], and rejoice in hope of the glory of God [the goal is to be fully motivated by love, like God, and not by our natural self-seeking]. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God [the goal] has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Obviously this change comes through a renewing of our minds as the Holy Spirit works in us:

Romans 12:2

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing [of our minds] by the Holy Spirit.

[We are also “to maintain good works” V. 8, but those works will not save us]

2 Corinthians 3:18

We all, with unveiled face [by turning to the Lord. V 16], beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord [His ‘goodness’. Exodus 33:18-19], are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Timothy 1:5 nasb

But the goal of our instruction is LOVE from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Excellent!!!

[wayfinder]

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God ;

20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight ; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Justification by Faith

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe ; for there is no distinction ;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus ;

25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed ;

26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting ? It is excluded. By what kind of law ? Of works ? No, but by a law of faith.

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only ? Is He not the God of Gentiles also ? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Romans 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned -

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned ; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase ; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23 NAS

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8 NAS

For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ;

Romans 4:5 NAS

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

I don't Musicman, Paul definitely says that righteousness is a gift.

[Musicman1228]

Oh Irony, thou art heartless.

[Guest]

Righteousness is a gift. And Paul is not the only one who says it.

Psa 24:5 He will receive blessing from the LORD and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Isa 54:17 ...This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness comes from me, says the Lord.

Rev 21:6 ...I will give unto him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17 ...And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life

Joh 15:5 He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that said to you, Give me to drink; you would have asked of him, and he would have given you living water.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

[Dr. Rich]

oK Richard, if, as you say, righteousness is a free gift, then why aren't you demanding your free gift? Like the advertisement says, "It's my money and I want it NOW!" Why don't you say the same thing--"It's my gift and I want it right now!"

But the big question that you can't answer is: "If righteousness is a free gift and we are saved by grace, then how come Jesus has not come already?"

Matt. 25:5 "..while the Bridegroom delayed..."

Rev. 7:3 "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

Richard, if you, by any possible means were right, then these verses make no sense at all.

[Guest]

What do you mean: "Like I say"? I just gave you nine texts that say it is free. Some are even the words of Jesus. (which you claim to believe) Two are from the OT. (which you claim to believe)

But the big question that you can't answer is: "If righteousness is a free gift and we are saved by grace, then how come Jesus has not come already?"

This may be the stupidest question I have seen you ask yet. What does one have to do with the other? How does salvation being free, equal= "should already be here"?

If it doesn't happen in my lifetime, I still can't complain. You guys are really out there!

[jsm]

Jesus not only forgives past sins, but He also cleanses us from ALL UNrighteousness.

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all UNrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9.

“[Jesus] who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.” 1 Peter 2:24.

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.” Matthew 5:6.

“Sow for yourselves righteousness; Reap in mercy; Break up your fallow ground, For it is time to seek the LORD, Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.” Hosea 10:12.

“That they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified….For as the earth brings forth its bud, As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth, So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.” Isaiah 61:3, 11.

“Being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.” Philippians 1:11.

“For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth.” Ephesians 5:9.

“For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.” Galatians 5:5.

“But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.” Ephesians 4:20-24.

“And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.” Philippians 3:9.

“‘Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.’ Matthew 5:6. Righteousness is holiness, likeness to God, and ‘God is love.’ 1 John 4:16. It is conformity to the law of God, for ‘all Thy commandments are righteousness’ (Psalm 119:172), and ‘love is the fulfilling of the law’ (Romans 13:10). Righteousness is love, and love is the light and the life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ. We receive righteousness by receiving Him.

“Not by painful struggles or wearisome toil, not by gift or sacrifice, is righteousness obtained; but it is freely given to every soul who hungers and thirsts to receive it.”Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat, . . . without money and without price." "Their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord," and, "This is His name whereby He shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness." Isaiah 55:1; 54: 17; Jeremiah 23:6.” MB 18.

“The righteousness of Christ consists in right actions and good works from pure, unselfish motives. Outside righteousness, while the inward adorning is wanting, will be of no avail.” 3T 528.

“The oil of grace gives to men the courage, and supplies to them the motives for doing every day the work that God appoints to them. The five foolish virgins had lamps (this means a knowledge of Scripture truth), but they had not the grace of Christ. Day by day they went through a round of ceremonies and external duties, but their service was lifeless, devoid of the righteousness of Christ. The Sun of Righteousness did not shine in their hearts and minds, and they had not the love of the truth which conforms, to the life and character, the image and superscription of Christ. The oil of grace was not mingled with their endeavors. Their religion was a dry husk without the true kernel. They held fast to forms of doctrines, but they were deceived in their Christian life, full of self-righteousness, and failing to learn lessons in the school of Christ, which, if practiced, would have made them wise unto salvation.” EGW in RH 3/27/1894.

[Guest]

Amen!

[Musicman1228]

As usual, Richard, you took those texts (except for Paul) out of context. Read around those texts and see what you get.

Ex. Rev. 7:3 "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

This says NOTHING about where their righteousness came from. Look around a bit, I think you can find it.

[Dr. Rich]

Is this your bible study--to take an issue and then look it up and copy every verse about it? Hmmm? There are two sides to this issue--I say that eternal life is conditional and you say it is a free gift for everyone, even sinners and evil people? Am I correct?

Look at the context on the verses you gave and you will see that this 'gift' is conditional. One can't receive it unless they repent and obey what God commanded--right?

[Guest]

Quote:

I say that eternal life is conditional and you say it is a free gift for everyone, even sinners and evil people? Am I correct?

It is conditional. But it's still a gift from God. You can't get it on your own. And no there won't be evil people! If God makes you righteous, how can you be evil? Ya dope.

[Musicman1228]

God will never make an evil person righteous as that is something they have to want and work for. If you are evil and like it (as were the criminals crucified next to Jesus) there is no way that you would be humble enough to subjugate yourself to the will of the Father.