Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: .... within the context of what is written in the Bible (identified as a sub-set or sphere of self-contained information) you must use logic and reason to sift through what is true or not by comparing Scripture with Scripture. When this is done with self honesty there IS evidence of conflicting understandings.

It's true that when we study the Bible, there is need of using logic in terms of analysing the texts and finding explanations.

Quote:

Musicman: By example: we have been taught by 'experts' that Noah preached a coming destruction on the anti-deluvian world. EGW makes statements to this effect, and it is the position of the church that this occurred. Yet when you look at the actual accounts as described in Gen.6 and 7 you do not see this as having happened. Couple that with what Jesus said in Matt:24:37-39 and the idea that Noah preached a warning to the people of his world must go away. IF this is the case then the only thing an honest person can do is recognize that either Jesus was in error or EGW and our church are in error, you cannot claim that both are correct.

Remember that there are millions of Christians who believe that Noah preached to the world of his day about the coming Flood. And almost all of these Christians who believe this have never heard of Ellen White, much less read her. So this really has nothing to do with Ellen White. SDAs don't believe it simply on the basis of Ellen White but on the same basis that millions of other Christians believe it: the Bible.

Jesus says there that "as [just like] it was in the days of Noah, so [in this way] shall the coming of the Son of man be." Are people being alerted to the Second Coming? Yes. Therefore, logic tells you that they were alerted that the Flood was coming.

If they were alerted to the fact that there was a Flood coming, why does it say "they did not know until the Flood came and took them all away"? Is that a contradiction?

Not when you consider the fact that the text does not say that Noah didn't warn them or tell them. It says the people didn't "know" it was coming. It means they didn't acknowledge or perceive that it was coming. The Greek word is ginosko (Strongs #1097). It may be tanslated as "to perceive, discern, to understand, to acknowledge." See the standard Greek-English lexicons.

If I tell you that there's a cyclone coming, but you stand there and laugh at me and refuse to believe what I say, the fact that I told you doesn't help you get ready, does it? When the cyclone hits, and you are killed, it would be perfectly accurate to say you didn't know that you were going to be killed by a cyclone.

In fact, that is exactly what the original Greek indicates. The word translated "Know" is not the word for "hearing" [Gk AKOE] (Strongs #189).

So Matt. 24: 39 is really saying, "They didn't realize/understand/observe the Flood was coming until it came and took them all away." Why? Because they didn't believe what they were told. What they heard was not mixed with faith. Faith would have given them perception that what they were hearing was true. But these people used only human logic. And since it had never rained before, logic told them Noah was just a silly old man.

That is exactly how the Amplified Version ["did not know or understand"] and others translate Matt. 24: 39. Rotherham's Ephasized Bible, a literal and very reliable translation, gives it, "And they observed not until the flood came..."

In light of the above evidence, logic tells us that it is a mistake to conclude that the people of Noah's time were not warned by God about the coming Flood. Based on what we know about God, there is no reason to think that He would bring a flood upon the world without giving due warning to the people He loves, just as he is warning the world today of the coming plagues and the soon return of Christ.

Your thoughts?

[Guest]

Amen

[Musicman1228]

jsm said, "Logic has its place; but spiritual things are spiritually understood through the help of the Holy Spirit, as we prayerfully study and compare the writings of those inspired by God.

2 Peter 1.20-21

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We absolutely must recognize the need of the Holy Spirit and pray for His help.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit “will guide you into all truth.”

John 16:12-14 (New King James Version)

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.”

* * * * *

jsm,

I do agree with you on this part of your response, which is all the more reason to have a STANDARD that is outside of yourself, and outside of human agency if possible. Just because there is spiritual content to truth does not mean that we must check our brains at the door of faith. Faith is the starting point for everyone seeking truth. But believing something just because someone in 'authority' makes a statement without confirmation from a reliable STANDARD is not only sloppy thinking but dangerous to the process of discovering truth. It is evident that you understand this, because of your recognition that the Holy Spirit must take a leading role in bringing us to the place where we can discern the difference between lies and truth.

When Jesus said to His disciples that He had more to tell them that they were not ready to hear just means that they were not ready to comprehend what He needed to finish telling them right then, before His crucifixion and resurrection. Even up to the crucifixion the disciples did not understand what Jesus came to earth to accomplish. They did not truly believe or fully understand His testimony and purpose for His sacrifice. This situation would change after the resurrection. There is a important indicator that He did finish giving them this important information before He ascended to Heaven the second time (after the 40 days). Jesus was going to give them the Holy Spirit before He left earth so they would not be left as orphans. He did this in the upper room soon after He came back to earth after having ascended the first time right after His resurrection. Then for 40 days Jesus and the Holy Spirit re-educated them and helped them to understand the fullness of the reason for His testimony and sacrifice.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.  If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.” John 20:21-23.

He gave the Holy Spirit to them in power; note that they were given the power to forgive sins or withhold the forgiveness. He said He was sending them as He was sent by His Father, this also is a specific instruction to His Disciples who were with Him in the upper room.

Jesus spent the next 40 days giving them the information that He did not give them before His death and resurrection because now they understood what He had done in context, and had the emotional where-with-all to deal with 'the rest of the story'.

This is why their testimony is so critical to our understanding of Truth, and why placing anyone else over the testimony of these eyewitnesses is taking the risk of being lead into believing a lie as if it were the truth. Jesus did give His own disciples all of the information we need in order to understand how salvation works, according to the testimony of Jesus Christ with they remembered because of the power of the Holy Spirit and the promise that Jesus made to them that they would remember everything that He said to them, for the purpose of passing it on to those who would believe in Him through THEIR words.

[Dr. Rich]

John, my thoughts--you have to be completely blind not to see that because of all the trumpets blowing and all of the STUFF going just before Jesus comes back to actually believe that ANY ONE WILL NOT KNOW what the heck is coming! You, of all people who intelligently examine just about everything regarding these issues, not understanding this is totally beyond belief.

When your wrote "because God kept the Bible free of false doctrines. God was watching over His Word" your mistakenly false assumption (presumption) is not worth betting your soul on. God would NEVER do such a thing, for if He did, that would be a sinful thing to do. Causing confusion is NOT what God is all about. When one says such stuff as what you did it causes me to shudder and I can imagine that God does too. Common sense should tell you that God IS in charge, but protecting what was placed in the bible is completely idiotic. Satan is in charge of this world right now and you are forgetting that he is a master at deception. He is good and it and God has allowed him every tool available to deceive everyone in this world. If God didn't, then Satan would have a good argument against God not being a fair God.

[Musicman1228]

John317,

You are equating what Jesus said about Noah with the coming in the Clouds at the end of the Great Tribulation, and this is understandable because most people equate the coming as a Thief in the Night with the 2nd Coming. This, however, doesn't jive with what is said in prophecy.

The Coming as a Thief in the Night IS NOT the coming in the clouds, because that is the coming when every eye shall see him. The coming as a thief is when Jesus comes only to the Faithful and Wise Servant and his fellow bond-servants. Note in the Story/prophecy of the 10 bridesmaids (Matt.25:1-13) that they slept through the coming and were awakened AFTER this coming with the cry AT MIDNIGHT "The Bridegroom IS HERE, come out to meet Him".

As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. Matt.25:5-7

If Jesus is here speaking of the Coming in the Clouds then all 10 of the Bridesmaids slept through the 7 Trumpets, the 7 Bowls of wrath and Jesus Coming in the Clouds of Glory. This is, quite frankly, impossible as EVERY EYE will see this coming.

Jesus meant what He said about this particular coming being similar to the coming of the flood in Noah's day. The Great Flood was punishment carried out on those that had ALREADY been judged as being completely wicked and irretrievable. Why would God have Noah preach to a world that had already been condemned to death?

At the time of the end God comes to seal the 144,000 and the 5 Wise Bridesmaids BEFORE the Great Tribulation begins. The coming as a Thief is when this occurs, it is not the coming in the Clouds of Glory at the end of all things.

[Musicman1228]

Just because millions of people believe something does not make it true. Again, a logical fallacy. The whole world will eventually wonder after and follow the Beast (of Rev.13), and if what you say is true then we should follow after this Beast because those billions do. I KNOW you don't believe this, but the tragedy is that many people do believe that the majority must have the truth just because they are the majority.

[Guest]

your mistakenly false assumption (presumption) is not worth betting your soul on.

That sounds funny coming from you. You are betting your soul on 100% presumption.

[Musicman1228]

Presumption is the flip side of the coin of Truth. It is only your opinion that Dr. Rich is presuming anything, much less everything.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ....you have to be completely blind not to see that because of all the trumpets blowing and all of the STUFF going just before Jesus comes back to actually believe that ANY ONE WILL NOT KNOW what the heck is coming! You, of all people who intelligently examine just about everything regarding these issues, not understanding this is totally beyond belief.

The Bible shows that there will be millions and millions who will be caught unprepared and as if they had no idea what was coming. They will be told but they won't believe it. Why not? Because they don't want to believe it. If they believed it, they would have to do something about it-- like change their life-- but they don't want to change their life and put away sin.

You may see those trumptets as literal but I don't. Those trumpets represent judgments from God, including the 7 Last Plagues, and they will come on people who didn't expect them, even though they were warned. When Christ returns in glory, it will be too late to get ready. NOW IS THE TIME TO PREPARE, not after the door is shut. That's what the people outside Noah's ark did-- they waited until the angel shut the door and then they wanted in. Jesus says the same thing will happen at the end-- people will cry to be let in the Kingdom, but the door will be shut and it will be too late.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: When your wrote "because God kept the Bible free of false doctrines. God was watching over His Word" your mistakenly false assumption (presumption) is not worth betting your soul on. God would NEVER do such a thing, for if He did, that would be a sinful thing to do.

You mean it would be a sinful thing for God to keep the Bible free of false doctrines? If this is what you mean, are you saying God allow false doctrine into both the Old and the New Testaments?

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Causing confusion is NOT what God is all about. When one says such stuff as what you did it causes me to shudder and I can imagine that God does too.

I don't believe God caused confusion. But the truth when preached to people who don't want the truth causes confusion because they invent all kinds of lies and false interpretations that trick the unwary in order to avoid the truth. They love the dark and go to the darkness even though others reading the same book are in the light.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Common sense should tell you that God IS in charge, but protecting what was placed in the bible is completely idiotic. Satan is in charge of this world right now and you are forgetting that he is a master at deception. He is good and it and God has allowed him every tool available to deceive everyone in this world. If God didn't, then Satan would have a good argument against God not being a fair God.

What did God allow Satan to put in the Hebrew Scriptures? Which books are false? Or did God protect the OT and keep Satan's agents from introducing false doctrines in it?

Does Satan have a good argument against God in regard to the OT? Is God under any kind of obligation to Satan to allow him to influence what's in the Sacred Scriptures?

Where do we see evidence that God allowed Satan to deceive people through what is written by Satan's followers in the Bible, in both Old and New Testaments?

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "The Bible shows that there will be millions and millions who will be caught unprepared and as if they had no idea what was coming."

Actually, John, the Bible does not show that millions will not know that Jesus is Coming back. It actually shows just the opposite. The purpose for many of the end time events listed as prophecy in Daniel and Revelation is to be a warning of impending doom.

The 7 Trumpets are a graphic warning that something is wrong in the world. The first 4 Trumpets set the stage for the world to recognize that there is a God and He is getting ready to shut things down. A massive world wide earthquake, a flaming mountain thrown into the sea, an asteroid strike, fire that destroys 1/3 of the worlds trees and green grass, the fresh water supply disrupted throughout the world; these are events that everyone living at that time will be affected by, and that no one will be unaware of. The 7 Trumpets are redemptive in nature, forcing the world to understand that something needs to be done to try to stop the progress toward destruction. It is out of this destruction that a world wide religious government comes. A government that will ostensibly be put in place to bring the worlds religions under one authority in order to appease God and stop the slide to oblivion.

The 7 Bowls of Wrath are punitive in nature, designed by God to punish those that persecuted the saints during this Time of Trouble. At this time both the righteous and unrighteous will all be sealed into their respective camps, because of the fact that the 7th Trumpet has sounded and probation is closed for everyone. How can probation be closed for people who have not yet made a decision because they were unaware that the world as they know it was coming to an end? The whole purpose of the Trumpets is to get people off of the fence and make a decision either for or against the True God of Heaven. Without that decision Jesus could never come back. It would be patently unfair for God to return to earth to take the righteous to Heaven and destroy the wicked if there are still people on the earth that don't know what is going on.

The Mark of the Beast occurs just before the close of probation, just before the 7th Trumpet sounds. Everyone on earth will be affected one way or the other by this world wide religious entity that requires this mark so as to avoid being put to death. Satan will appear as an angel of light in the Temple in Jerusalem and claim to be God. The 144,000 and the Saints, and those that have joined them will proclaim to the world that this being IS NOT God but an impostor. At that time all of the living that have not chosen sides will be required to choose whom they will serve. There will be NO ONE one earth that does not make a cognizant decision to either worship the Beast and his image or worship the God of Creation. Everyone on earth will understand the implications of their decisions. If this is not the case then God would be unfair and cruel, condemning people to death by predestination. This is not true because there is no such thing as being predestined to either eternal life or eternal death (in spite of what Paul writes).

And then, when Jesus Christ actually appears in the sky in glory EVERYONE that remains alive will recognize the event, no one will be surprised by this.

[jsm]

My usual practice in the past had been to submit papers to pastors, those at the BRI, and to some at AU; but this time I was also advised by a much interested Conference official to put the information in a blog and notify SDAs in general about it.

While having studied this extensively from the Bible & EGW, I make no claim to having everything right. So I fully expected to get helpful dialog here ONLY on the topic presented. But it is as though the devil himself has taken control. I have been much disappointed and, hopefully, will avoid this process in the future.

However, I will continue to participate in this one thread.

[Dr. Rich]

Well John, then I suppose your opinion is that Jesus lied when He said that that the gospel of or about the Kingdom of Heaven will be preached or taught all over the world before He comes, that this must not be correct. I for one totally believe Jesus NEVER lied.

So, if the gospel of the KOH is preached all over the world before He comes in the clouds, then please explain and show me where you get the idea that many or millions will not know what is going on? I can't see that from my educated investigation.

[Dr. Rich]

John: "That's what the people outside Noah's ark did-- they waited until the angel shut the door and then they wanted in."

Wow, I did not know that you were there! My bible is void of this information. Did God tell you this?

[Dr. Rich]

John: "You mean it would be a sinful thing for God to keep the Bible free of false doctrines? If this is what you mean, are you saying God allow false doctrine into both the Old and the New Testaments?"

Jesus Himself taught by using these scriptures, therefore HE ALONE validated/verified that the OT was correct. It had NOTHING to do with God not allowing anything wrong-for these were passed down by eyewitness' of God--not some fly by night who SAID they were knocked off their ass/horse/mule and made blind in order to force them to go see someone they never intended to see.

[jsm]

In the descriptions by Christ, there is an important difference between the “GATHER OUT” harvest and His “GATHER TOGETHER” coming in the clouds. The first is a separation process in the closing days of probationary time, among the living in God’s church.

I believe the harvest time takes place during events described in Revelation 6-11.

In the harvest, the angels “GATHER OUT of His kingdom…all things that offend.”

In the harvest, “The Son of Man will SEND out His ANGELS, and they WILL GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and THOSE WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.” Matthew 13:41.

At His second coming, the angels “GATHER TOGETHER His elect.”

At His second coming, “they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:30-31.

Now let’s see how EGW applies the FIELD to the church and the HARVEST to the closing events of probationary time, instead of Christ’s second coming:

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God.” COL 70.

The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. COL 71. [The seven last plagues begin when probationary time ends. Christ comes AFTER those plagues]

Now notice how EGW compare the harvest with Malachi 3:16-18 events AND to the time when CHRIST HIMSELF…WILL JUDGE EVERY MAN:

The tares are permitted to grow among the wheat, to have all the advantage of sun and shower; but IN THE TIME OF HARVEST ye shall "return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not." Mal. 3:18. Christ Himself will decide who are worthy to dwell with the family of heaven. He will judge every man according to his words and his works. COL 74.

Now read what Malachi wrote:

Malachi 3:16-18 (New King James Version)

Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another,

And the LORD listened and heard them;

So a bo ok of remembrance was written before Him

For those who fear the LORD

And who meditate on His name.

17 “They shall be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts,

“On the day that I make them My jewels.

And I will spare them

As a man spares his own son who serves him.”

18 Then you shall again discern

Between the righteous and the wicked,

Between one who serves God

And one who does not serve Him.

Now notice how EGW applies this to “the day of test and trial” the “test of the judgment” and “the grand review” in what appears to be judgment time for the living, when Christ “will thoroughly purge His floor.” :

“We are to be saved as individuals; and in the day of test and trial we shall be able to discern between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.” EGW in RH 11/4/1890.

“Only the work accomplished by much prayer, which is sanctified by the merit of Christ, will stand the test of the judgment. When the grand review shall take place, then shall ye return and discern between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.” EGW in RH 7/4/1893.

“Not many years hence there is to be a grand and just review of all characters. The harvest is not far ahead.” EGW n YI 11/26/1896.

“No outward forms can make us clean; no ordinance, administered by the saintliest of men, can take the place of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit of God must do its work upon the heart. All who have not experienced its regenerating power are chaff among the wheat. Our Lord has His fan in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor. In the coming day He will discern ‘between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.’” 5T 227.

EGW also applies this to the future time of National apostasy and the martyrs of Revelation 6:9-11

In proportion as the attributes of Satan are developed in the despisers and transgressors of the law of God, to the faithful adherent the holy precept will become more dear and valuable. He will declare, "They have made void thy law. Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold." It is the one who has been a faithful steward of the grace of God whose love of God's commandments grows with the contempt which all around him would put upon them.

Wicked men and the church harmonize in this hatred of the law of God; and then the crisis comes. Then we see the class specified in Malachi 3:13-15: "Your words have been stout against me. . . . Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee? Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts? And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered." Here are a company of disaffected PROFESSED CHRISTIANS [the tares?] whose chief business is to murmur and complain and accuse God by accusing the children of God. They see nothing defective in themselves, but very much to displease to others.

But while they are murmuring and complaining and falsely accusing, and doing Satan's work most zealously, another class is brought to our notice [in MALACHI 3:16-18]: "Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not."

This subject is urging itself upon my mind. Consider it; for it is a matter of vast importance. With which of these two classes shall we identify our interest? We are now making our choice, and we shall soon discern between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. Read the fourth chapter of Malachi, and think about it seriously. THE DAY OF GOD is right upon us. The world has converted the church. Both are in harmony, and are acting upon a short-sighted policy. Protestants will work upon the rulers of the land to make laws to restore the lost ascendency of the man of sin, who sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. The Roman Catholic principles will be taken under the care and protection of the State. THIS NATIONAL APOSTASY WILL SPEEDILY BE FOLLOWED BY NATIONAL RUIN . The protest of Bible truth will be no longer tolerated by those who have made not the law of God their rule of life. THEN WILL THE [REVELATION 6:9-11] VOICE BE HEARD from the graves of martyrs, represented by the souls WHICH JOHN SAW ‘slain for the word of God and the testimony’ of Jesus Christ ‘which they held’; then the prayer will ascend from every true child of God, "It is time, Lord, for thee to work: for they have made void thy law. [Psalms 119:126]” EGW in GCB 1/1/1900.

"And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." "Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings." Here are brought plainly to view those who will be vessels unto honor; for they will receive the latter rain. EGW in RH 3/19/1895.

5T 79-82

God has never made the flock wholly dependent upon human instrumentalities. But the days of purification of the church are hastening on apace. God will have a people pure and true. In the mighty sifting soon to take place we shall be better able to measure the strength of Israel. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor.

The days are fast approaching when there will be great perplexity and confusion. Satan, clothed in angel robes, will deceive, if possible, the very elect. There will be gods many and lords many. Every wind of doctrine will be blowing. Those who have rendered supreme homage to "science falsely so called" will not be the leaders then. Those who have trusted to intellect, genius, or talent will not then stand at the head of rank and file. They did not keep pace with the light. Those who have proved themselves unfaithful will not then be entrusted with the flock. In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the day time we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.

The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.

When trees without fruit are cut down as cumberers of the ground, when multitudes of false brethren are distinguished from the true, then the hidden ones will be revealed to view, and with hosannas range under the banner of Christ. Those who have been timid and self-distrustful will declare themselves openly for Christ and His truth. The most weak and hesitating in the church will be as David--willing to do and dare. The deeper the night for God's people, the more brilliant the stars. Satan will sorely harass the faithful; 82 but, in the name of Jesus, they will come off more than conquerors. Then will the church of Christ appear "fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners."

The seeds of truth that are being sown by missionary efforts will then spring up and blossom and bear fruit. Souls will receive the truth who will endure tribulation and praise God that they may suffer for Jesus. "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." When the overflowing scourge shall pass through the earth, when the fan is purging Jehovah's floor, God will be the help of His people. The trophies of Satan may be exalted on high, but the faith of the pure and holy will not be daunted.

[John317]

... I suppose your opinion is that Jesus lied when He said that that the gospel of or about the Kingdom of Heaven will be preached or taught all over the world before He comes, that this must not be correct. I for one totally believe Jesus NEVER lied.

So, if the gospel of the KOH is preached all over the world before He comes in the clouds, then please explain and show me where you get the idea that many or millions will not know what is going on? I can't see that from my educated investigation.

Have you ever told someone that Jesus is coming, only to have them reject the message? Of course the gospel will be preached to all the world-- it is being preached now-- but that doesn't mean it will be accepted by everyone. On the contrary, only relatively few people out of all the billions alive will really believe the message and be saved when Christ returns.

Again, to "know" is different from "hearing." To "know" in the biblical sense is to perceive and understand and acknowledge. Mere "hearing" is something altogether different. Jesus talked about people who have ears to hear but who don't really hear (i.e., hear with understanding).

[jsm]

In the typical Day of Atonement service, sins were not transferred to the live goat [representing Satan] until the end of the day:

Leviticus 16:20-22

And when he hath made AN END of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited; and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Please notice that EGW confirms this. Sins are blotted out and transferred to Satan AT THE END of the symbolic Day of Atonement.

“As the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. BUT BEFORE this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record [the IJ] to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement.” GC 421.

“When sin has been repented of, confessed, and forsaken, then pardon is written against the sinner's name; but his sins are not blotted out until after [not during, but ‘AFTER’] the investigative judgment.”  EGW in Signs of the Times, 5-16-1895.

“The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after [not during, but ‘AFTER’] the judgment at which THEIR cases [not after each case] are to be investigated.” GC 485.

“Christ HIMSELF will decide who are worthy to dwell with the family of heaven. He will judge every man according to his words and his works.” “For the Father judges no one, but has committed ALL [yes, ‘ALL’] judgment to the Son…For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute (pronounce) judgment also, BECAUSE He is the Son of Man.” COL 74, John 5:22, 26-27.

Uriah Smith makes similar applications in his D&R 113 to 115, and relates Revelation 4 & 5 to Daniel 7.

After discussing Daniel 7:9-10, he writes in page 113:

John [in Revelation] saw THE SAME heavenly attendants before the throne of God, and he describes the majestic scene in these words: "I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." Revelation 5:11. A fuller understanding of these verses involves an understanding of THE SANCTUARY SERVICES.

The closing up of the ministration of Christ, our great High Priest, in the heavenly sanctuary, is the work of judgment here introduced. It is an investigative judgment. The books are opened, and the cases of all come up for examination before that great tribunal, that it may be decided beforehand who are to receive eternal life when the Lord shall come to confer it upon His people.

Then he discusses verses 13-14 in pages 114-115.

Christ receives His kingdom before His return to this earth. (See Luke 19:10-12.) Therefore, this is a scene which takes place in heaven, and is closely connected with that brought to view in verses 9 and 10. Christ receives His kingdom AT THE CLOSE of His priestly work in the sanctuary.

[John317]

Quote:

John: You mean it would be a sinful thing for God to keep the Bible free of false doctrines? If this is what you mean, are you saying God allow false doctrine into both the Old and the New Testaments?

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Jesus Himself taught by using these scriptures, therefore HE ALONE validated/verified that the OT was correct. It had NOTHING to do with God not allowing anything wrong-for these were passed down by eyewitness' of God...

My question is, did God allow false doctrine into the Old Testament or did He keep it pure?

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228:

Why would God have Noah preach to a world that had already been condemned to death?

The answer, I believe, is that God had Noah preach in order to give people he loved an opportunity to change and be saved if they chose.

The people of Ninevah were also condemned to die, but God sent a prophet to give them one last opportunity to repent and they did. Similarly, people who heard Noah preach could have been saved in the ark with Noah if they'd chosen to accept the message God sent to them through Noah.

It seems like you skipped the main point of what was said earlier that I responded to. It was said that Matt. 24: 39 proves Noah didn't tell the people before the Flood that a flood was coming. But I've shown evidence that this is not what that text is saying.

Matt. 24: 39 doesn't contradict the other things in the Bible about Noah preaching to those who eventually died in the Flood.

It was also said that we get those ideas from Ellen White, but I've pointed out that many millions of Christians who've never heard of Ellen White believe Noah preached. Christians, such as Adam Clarke, who lived before the time of Ellen White, wrote that Noah preached to the wicked about the Flood.

I'd really be interested in hearing what you think of what I wrote below:

Quote:

...the text does not say that Noah didn't warn them or tell them. It says the people didn't "know" it was coming. It means they didn't acknowledge or perceive that it was coming. The Greek word is ginosko (Strongs #1097). It may be tanslated as "to perceive, discern, to understand, to acknowledge." See the standard Greek-English lexicons.

...In fact, that is exactly what the original Greek indicates. The word translated "Know" is not the word for "hearing" [Gk AKOE] (Strongs #189).

So Matt. 24: 39 is really saying, "They didn't realize/understand/observe the Flood was coming until it came and took them all away." Why? Because they didn't believe what they were told. What they heard was not mixed with faith. Faith would have given them perception that what they were hearing was true. But these people used only human logic. And since it had never rained before, logic told them Noah was just a silly old man.

That is exactly how the Amplified Version ["did not know or understand"] and others translate Matt. 24: 39. Rotherham's Ephasized Bible, a literal and very reliable translation, gives it, "And they observed not until the flood came..."

[John317]

Quote:

jsm: (quoting):

....the days of purification of the church are hastening on apace. God will have a people pure and true. In the mighty sifting soon to take place we shall be better able to measure the strength of Israel. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor.

The days are fast approaching when there will be great perplexity and confusion. Satan, clothed in angel robes, will deceive, if possible, the very elect. There will be gods many and lords many. Every wind of doctrine will be blowing. Those who have rendered supreme homage to "science falsely so called" will not be the leaders then. Those who have trusted to intellect, genius, or talent will not then stand at the head of rank and file. They did not keep pace with the light. Those who have proved themselves unfaithful will not then be entrusted with the flock. In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the day time we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.

The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.

....The seeds of truth that are being sown by missionary efforts will then spring up and blossom and bear fruit. Souls will receive the truth who will endure tribulation and praise God that they may suffer for Jesus. "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." When the overflowing scourge shall pass through the earth, when the fan is purging Jehovah's floor, God will be the help of His people. The trophies of Satan may be exalted on high, but the faith of the pure and holy will not be daunted. 5T 79-82

All of your post was good but the above paragraphs especially caught my attention. "Every wind of doctrine will be blowing." So true-- in our church also, and being fulfilled right before our very eyes.

Thanks for reminding us of those words.

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "The answer, I believe, is that God had Noah preach in order to give people he loved an opportunity to change and be saved if they chose."

I think that you are just guessing at this, John, because there is nothing in Scripture that indicates that this occurred. Why is it so difficult to believe that God passed judgement on the people of the world, and then carried out that judgement by executing the wicked in the Flood? This is exactly what He told Noah that He would do. The decision actually was placed on Noah; God was going to destroy the world and He told Noah to build an ARK to save himself and his family. Noah could have refused to obey God and God would have destroyed the world including Noah and his family had they not built the ARK.

We see this very same type of situation with Sodom and the cities of the plain. God told Lot that He was going to destroy Sodom and to get out. After a bit of haggling on Lot's part He finally left with his family, and God destroyed Sodom. If Lot had decided to stay in Sodom God would have destroyed him with the city.

This can be seen in the prophecy of Jesus that the Temple would be destroyed, saying to get out of Jerusalem before this happened. The followers of Jesus took Him at His word, and when Titus sacked Jerusalem in 70 CE not one follower of Jesus was lost because they had all abandoned the city according to the words of Jesus.

This also will happen in the end of time, because Jesus warned His people in prophecy to get out of Jerusalem unless they wished to be included in the destruction.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt.24:14-21.

Then shall come the destruction of that Great City, Jerusalem. And just a previously stated God will punish Jerusalem and all those that are still in her, including the Saints if they do not leave, and flee to the hills.

There is a time for warning and a time for judgment to be carried out. The world of Noah's day have plenty of warning from Adam through Enoch. There comes a time when God says 'Enough is enough' and simply does what He said He would do.

[John317]

Quote:

jsm: ...As the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. BUT BEFORE this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record [the IJ] to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. GC 421.

When sin has been repented of, confessed, and forsaken, then pardon is written against the sinner's name; but his sins are not blotted out until after [not during, but AFTER;] the investigative judgment.;  EGW in Signs of the Times, 5-16-1895.

The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after [not during, but AFTER;] the judgment at which THEIR cases [not after each case] are to be investigated.; GC 485.

Christ HIMSELF will decide who are worthy to dwell with the family of heaven. He will judge every man according to his words and his works. For the Father judges no one, but has committed ALL [yes,ALL] judgment to the Son ;For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute (pronounce) judgment also, BECAUSE He is the Son of Man. COL 74, John 5:22, 26-27.

Uriah Smith makes similar applications in his D&R 113 to 115, and relates Revelation 4 & 5 to Daniel 7. ....Then he discusses verses 13-14 in pages 114-115.

Christ receives His kingdom before His return to this earth. (See Luke 19:10-12.) Therefore, this is a scene which takes place in heaven, and is closely connected with that brought to view in verses 9 and 10. Christ receives His kingdom AT THE CLOSE of His priestly work in the sanctuary.

These things are SO IMPORTANAT-- or rather, ESSENTIAL-- for us to understand in these times.

Christ has not yet received his kingdom. This is important, too, in light of the dying thief's request, that Jesus remember him when He comes into His kingdom. Jesus promised the thief He would do it, but many people think wrongly that Jesus came into kingdom that same day. But here we see that Jesus doesn't come into His kingdom until the close of His priestly work in the heavenly sanctuary. That is yet future, of course.

Another point that should be brought out is that while this blotting out of sins is going forward in heaven, we are to be separating sin from from us. This means God empowers us to overcome sin, not merely to have sins covered. In other words, God helps us get to the point where we are not constantly asking forgiveness for the same old sins year in and year out. The blotting out of sin in the record books in heaven can only be done as we are blotting them out of our lives.

Wonderful post you gave us, full of good things, jsm!!!! Keep it up. :-)

[Musicman1228]

Amen and Amen.

[Guest]

My usual practice in the past had been to submit papers to pastors, those at the BRI, and to some at AU; but this time I was also advised by a much interested Conference official to put the information in a blog and notify SDAs in general about it.

While having studied this extensively from the Bible & EGW, I make no claim to having everything right. So I fully expected to get helpful dialog here ONLY on the topic presented. But it is as though the devil himself has taken control. I have been much disappointed and, hopefully, will avoid this process in the future.

However, I will continue to participate in this one thread.

I know what you mean Stan. I'm sorry it has turned out to be a frustrating experience. Personally I have liked everything you wrote so far.