Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[BobRyan]

The HARVEST parable indicates a time is coming when God's people will be on the same page in understanding.

This is a lengthy subject, and should be in a separate thread. But I will make only a couple comments here, and add a few Bible texts. Then I will respond further only in a new thread.

We get our directions from the Bible as we look to Jesus and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.

People come from all backgrounds; so that mystical and theoretic line drawn in the sand is a poor illustration.

A better illustration is a wheel, with the spokes representing people and the center representing Christ.

No matter what direction we come from in our spiritual understanding, we will draw closer together as we draw closer to Him.

2 Corinthians 3.18

But we ALL, with open face [when we 'turn to the Lord' v. 16] beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

==============

I could have sworn you were going to add Eph 4 to this.

But in the last days - you would think that the saints would have to all have connection with each other to all be on the page on every point of doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

[jsm]

Bob, I was just pointing out that "tares" ['the children of the wicked one' sown by the devil. Matt 13:38-39] will be among the "wheat" until harvest-time. Matt 13:30.

"As trials thicken around us, both separation and unity will be seen in our ranks...when the storm of persecution really breaks upon us, the true sheep will hear the true Shepherd's voice. Self-denying efforts will be put forth to save the lost, and many who have strayed from the fold will come back to follow the great Shepherd. The people of God will draw together and present to the enemy a united front...

"...The love of Christ, the love of our brethren, will testify to the world that we have been with Jesus and learned of Him. Then will the message of the third angel swell to a loud cry, and the whole earth will be lightened with the glory of the Lord." 6T 400-401.

[jsm]

Consider how closely the following from Isaiah parallels a series in Revelation:

Isaiah 59:14

Justice is turned back,

      And righteousness stands afar off;

      For truth is fallen in the street,

      And equity cannot enter.

Revelation 3:14-17

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write…

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot….

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

Isaiah 59:15-16

Then the LORD saw it, and it displeased Him

      That there was no justice.

     He saw that there was NO MAN,

      And wondered that there was no intercessor;

      Therefore HIS OWN ARM brought salvation for Him;

      And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

Revelation 5:2-5

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

And NO MAN in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah [’HIS OWN ARM’], the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Isaiah 59:17-19

For He put on righteousness as a breastplate,

      And a helmet of salvation on His head;

      He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,

      And was clad with zeal as a cloak.

      According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,

      Fury to His adversaries,

      Recompense to His enemies;

      The coastlands He will fully repay.

       So shall they fear

      The name of the LORD from the west,

      And His glory from the rising of the sun;

      When the enemy comes in like a flood,

      The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him.

Revelation 6:2-8

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Isaiah 59:20

The Redeemer will come to Zion,

      And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”

      Says the LORD.

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Isaiah 59:21

“As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.”

Revelation 7:2-3

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Isaiah 60:1-2

Arise, shine;

      For your light has come!

      And the glory of the LORD is risen upon you.

      For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,

      And deep darkness the people;

      But the LORD will arise over you,

      And His glory will be seen upon you.

Revelation 8:1-2, 5

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth.

Isaiah 60:3-5

      The Gentiles shall come to your light,

      And kings to the brightness of your rising.

      Lift up your eyes all around, and see:

      They all gather together, they come to you;

      Your sons shall come from afar,

      And your daughters shall be nursed at your side.

      Then you shall see and become radiant,

      And your heart shall swell with joy;

      Because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,

      The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.

Revelation 7:9-10, 14

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[Dr. Rich]

"We need a thread titled "fiction" so Rich can "own it". Well Bob, if you feel this way, then prove it. Please use the words of Jesus to do it. Let's not tear each other down, lets use facts given to us by Jesus and that will be the only way we will ever have any unity.

Since Jesus said that only the servants will discover the difference between the wheat and the tares, I challenge all of you, that is, IF you think you are truly servants of God, to please point our and tell the rest of us who the tares are and why they are tares. Now, if you can't do this RIGHT NOW, then don't go around bad mouthing people who might disagree with your understanding, for your understanding just might be what is wrong.

Also remember, that these servants do this discovering JUST before harvest. And no, this does not mean christians verses non-christians for this has been this way ever since Jesus was here. It means that there is a clear difference between christians and christians. Now tell me and show me this clear difference! If you can't do this, then why should anyone listen to what you have to say about bible prophecy for the ENDTIME?

Oh, as for me, wayfinder and MM? YOU BETCHA! We can and have done this already!

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: "We need a thread titled "fiction" so Rich can "own it". Well Bob, if you feel this way, then prove it. ....Since Jesus said that only the servants will discover the difference between the wheat and the tares, I challenge all of you, that is, IF you think you are truly servants of God, to please point our and tell the rest of us who the tares are and why they are tares. ....

Also remember, that these servants do this discovering JUST before harvest....

I don't think anyone is labeling anyone else a "tare." As far as I can see, Bob was only saying that he believes you teach things that aren't true. That wouldn't necessarily make you a tare. "Tares" are people who won't be saved in God's kingdom, and God hasn't revealed who will be saved and who lost. We won't know that until the Second Coming and the resurrection. Therefore we can't judge people's hearts and relationship with God. We can only judge outward behavior and people's words, but not their ultimate destiny. I don't consider that to be my job or the job of other humans.

[Dr. Rich]

Matthew 13:24 "...The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field." Verse 25 "But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away." Verse 26 "When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, THEN the weeds also appeared." Verse 27 "THE OWNERS SERVANTS CAME TO HIM AND SAID 'SIR, DIDN'T YOU SOW GOOD SEED IN YOUR FIELD? THEN WHERE DID THE WEEDS COME FROM".

Sorry about that John, your understanding does not agree with the clear words of Jesus. It is NOT God who does the revealing, it is the Owner's servants. And you are completely wrong that the servants will not know this until the Second Coming. Clearly the Servants saw the difference. If you can't see this now, then this should tell you about your condition. These are NOT my words, Jesus wrote them so don't blame me!

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich (quoting); Matthew 13:24 "...The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field." Verse 25 "But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away." Verse 26 "When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, THEN the weeds also appeared." Verse 27 "THE OWNERS SERVANTS CAME TO HIM AND SAID 'SIR, DIDN'T YOU SOW GOOD SEED IN YOUR FIELD? THEN WHERE DID THE WEEDS COME FROM".

Sorry about that John, your understanding does not agree with the clear words of Jesus. It is NOT God who does the revealing, it is the Owner's servants. And you are completely wrong that the servants will not know this until the Second Coming. Clearly the Servants saw the difference. If you can't see this now, then this should tell you about your condition. These are NOT my words, Jesus wrote them so don't blame me!

You didn't read far enough. You stopped too soon. We must read, understand, and accept ALL of Jesus' words.

Read verses 27-30, Rich.

What does the owner answer when the servants ask him if he wants them to weed out the tares? Is the owner confident the servants will know the difference between the wheat and the tares? For the answer, see v. 29.

Please write the answer here: _______________________________________________________.

Next, who does the owner say will do the separating? See v. 30 for the answer.

Please write the answer here: _____________________.

Final question: If God reveals to the servants who the tares are, why does the owner say what he says in v. 29?

Please write the answer here: ___________________________________________________.

Read also Jesus' explanation in Matt. 13: 36-43.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey John, don't get your tail tied in a knot. We all can read. Jesus told them not to pull them because that is His job. I did NOT say anything about doing the pulling! What you wrote is totally irrelevant to the issue.

The issue is WHO it is that discoveres the difference? Can you tell me the difference? Why not?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich:

Sorry about that John, your understanding does not agree with the clear words of Jesus. It is NOT God who does the revealing, it is the Owner's servants. And you are completely wrong that the servants will not know this until the Second Coming. Clearly the Servants saw the difference. If you can't see this now, then this should tell you about your condition. These are NOT my words, Jesus wrote them so don't blame me!

After you've read ALL of Jesus' words-- verses Matt. 13: 27-30 and verses 36-43--- please tell if you still believe my understanding does not agree with the clear words of Christ:

Kindly write your answer here: _______________________________.

Quick review:

What does the owner answer when the servants ask him if he wants them to weed out the tares? Is the owner confident the servants will know the difference between the wheat and the tares? For the answer, see v. 29.

Next, who does the owner say will do the separating? See v. 30 for the answer.

Final question: What does the owner say in v. 29 which shows that God will not reveal the identity of the tares to the servants?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Jesus told them not to pull them because that is His job. I did NOT say anything about doing the pulling!

You said the servants will know the difference between the tares and the wheat.

But verse 29 says that they won't know. If they did, would the servants uproot the wheat as well? Obviously not.

God leaves it up to the angels, not human beings, to separate the wheat from the tares, because, as Jesus plainly said, the servants would uproot the wheat as well as the tares.

Isn't that what Jesus says?

So our job is never to try to uproot the tares. Our job is to love everyone and preach the gospel and gather as many as we can into the grainery or into the net. God and His angels do the separating.

Do you know the difference between tares and wheat? Did you know that what appears to be a tare now may be finally wheat, and what appears now to be wheat may turn out to have been only a weed? Only God knows the heart and mind. He's never given us the responsibility of deciding that question because we would uproot good people along with the bad.

[Dr. Rich]

Matthew 24:45-47 "Who then IS THE (singular) faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household TO GIVE THEM THEIR FOOD AT THE PROPER TIME? It will be good for that servant (singular) whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions."

What you don't understand John, is that the 'master' is gone!

You might also want to read what happens to the servant in Matthew 25:14-30 who claims that the Master is harvesting where he has not sowed.

Get over it John, who does the harvesting and why is not the issue. I respectfully object because this is not irrelevant to who it is that does the discovering the difference and when this happens.

There is a proper time and that proper time is just about here. If you don't know the difference then just say so.

[Musicman1228]

John,

'Angels' are messengers. This does not necessarily mean that they are 'heavenly' beings. In the Messages to the 7 Churches in Revelation 2 and 3 the messengers could just as easily be human beings as heavenly beings. In fact this makes more sense to me given that in Rev. 1:1-3 it was a 'heavenly angel' that gave the message to John, and it was John that conveyed this message to the Bondservants; therefore the Bondservants could very well be the messengers spoken of in the 7 Churches.

IF this is the case then maybe the angels listed in the parable/prophecy of the 'Wheat and Tares' are these same human Bondservants. This would make sense when we consider the parable/prophecy about the Faithful and Wise Bondservant who is feeding his fellow Bondservants their food at the proper time in Matt. 24:45-51. It is fairly obvious that these Bondservants are human beings and not angelic beings, so too it could also be said for the 'angels/messengers' in the 'Wheat and Tares'.

Your thoughts.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich:

The issue is WHO it is that discoveres the difference? Can you tell me the difference? Why not?

I can't do it, and neither can you, because God hasn't given that responsiblity to any human being. Our work is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and leave it to God and the angels to do the separating.

Question: Do you believe the faithful and discreet slave who the Master appoints to be ruler over His household, knows the difference between weeds and wheat? Who is this slave?

Luke 12: 41-48; Matt. 24: 45-51.

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: 'Angels' are messengers. This does not necessarily mean that they are 'heavenly' beings. ....IF this is the case then maybe the angels listed in the parable/prophecy of the 'Wheat and Tares' are these same human Bondservants. This would make sense when we consider the parable/prophecy about the Faithful and Wise Bondservant who is feeding his fellow Bondservants their food at the proper time in Matt. 24:45-51. It is fairly obvious that these Bondservants are human beings and not angelic beings, so too it could also be said for the 'angels/messengers' in the 'Wheat and Tares'.

Your thoughts.

Who gathers Jesus' elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other? Are those human beings who respond to the great sound of a trumpet, or are they heavenly beings who accompany Jesus from heaven to the earth?

See Matt. 24: 31

Are you saying that in God's household are only those who will be saved? Does the faithful and discreet slave in the parable only give food to the saved? Matt. 24: 45.

[Musicman1228]

The 144,000 and the Saints (five wise bridesmaids Matt.25) do gather the the Great Multitude from every kindred, tribe, tongue and people through their testimony.

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. Rev. 19:7-8.

It is important to understand the process by which this testimony (the testimony of Jesus Christ through his 'messengers') reaches the world. We definitely KNOW that this testimony does reach the world because we are shown a vast multitude that is standing before the Throne of God, and this multitude is 'un-numbered'. This does not mean that God doesn't know the number, it means that the number of those saved out of the world has not been predetermined.

The Faithful and Wise Bondservants gives the Testimony of Jesus Christ about the Kingdom to his fellow Bondservants, who are members of the household of God. These Bondservants give this Testimony to the Servants of the Bride/The Bridesmaids, which prepares them to take this message to the Bride, those that come out of the world into the Kingdom of God based upon their testimony. This latter group is the Great Multitude (un-numbers as of right now) that comes out of the world into the Kingdom of God during the Great Tribulation. In a very real sense this these Bondservants and Bridesmaids are the 'messengers' that gather the 'elect' from the 'Four Corners of the earth. They are the servants that go out onto the highways and bi-ways to bring anyone who will into the marriage supper of the Lamb.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich (quoting): Matthew 13:24 "...The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field." Verse 25 "But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away." Verse 26 "When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, THEN the weeds also appeared." Verse 27 "THE OWNERS SERVANTS CAME TO HIM AND SAID 'SIR, DIDN'T YOU SOW GOOD SEED IN YOUR FIELD? THEN WHERE DID THE WEEDS COME FROM".

Below in red are the Bible answers to the questions:

Quote:

JOHN3:17: You didn't read far enough. You stopped too soon. We must read, understand, and accept ALL of Jesus' words.

Read verses 27-30, Rich.

What does the owner answer when the servants ask him if he wants them to weed out the tares? Is the owner confident the servants will know the difference between the wheat and the tares? For the answer, see v. 29.

Please write the answer here: No, the owner is not confident at all. He says the servants would make mistakes and uproot the wheat along with the weeds.

Next, who does the owner say will do the separating? See v. 30 for the answer.

Please write the answer here: The reapers are the angels. (see Matt. 13: 39)

Final question: If God reveals to the servants who the tares are, why does the owner say what he says in v. 29?

Please write the answer here: V. 29 proves that God doesn't reveals this to human beings.

Read also Jesus' explanation in Matt. 13: 36-43.

[jsm]

Those Matthew 13:27 SERVANTS had a problem, as Jesus pointed out in the parable:

Paraphrase: "You do NOT UNDERSTAND. Leave the tares alone."

Compare this with what Jesus later told His disciples when they had reached more mature spiritual understanding:

John 15.15

Henceforth I call you NOT SERVANTS; for THE SERVANT DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HIS LORD DOES: BUT I HAVE CALLED YOU FRIENDS; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Obviously, an overemphasis on the word SERVANTS can create problems.

And when Jesus explained the SPIRITUAL MEANING of the parable, He completely left out reference to the SERVANTS.

I pray we will all beoome FRIENDS of Christ and of each other, and not remain as 'do not know' servants.

[John317]

The 144,000 and the Saints (five wise bridesmaids Matt.25) do gather the the Great Multitude from every kindred, tribe, tongue and people through their testimony.

..... In a very real sense this these Bondservants and Bridesmaids are the 'messengers' that gather the 'elect' from the 'Four Corners of the earth. They are the servants that go out onto the highways and bi-ways to bring anyone who will into the marriage supper of the Lamb.

MM, could you show your evidence from the Bible that these angels, or messengers, are human beings?

You'll notice that Matt. 13: 49 refers to the ones who separate the wicked from the righteous as "THE angels" [Gk oi aggeloi]. Matt. 24: 31 has the same: tous angelous, that is, "THE angels" of Christ.

Can you show any place in the NT where human beings are called oi angeloi [THE messengers]? Or "THE messengers of him"?

What else does Jesus say (in v. 50) these angels have the responsibility of doing?

Answer: "The angels" also have the job of "throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace."

Do you really believe that God will have humans throwing other humans into the fiery furnace"? If so, could you please show Bible evidence of this?

Before you answer, you will want to read Matt. 25: 31, which says these angels [gk oi angeloi] are ones who come with Him from heaven. See also Matt. 16: 27: "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels [Gk ton angelon] and then He will reward each person according to what he has done."

[wayfinder]

That is my prayer also, jsm.

[wayfinder]

John317, I know if everything was crystal clear, well, we wouldn't have anything to discuss, that said, as I have studied I have noticed a consistant comparison to the people of God and "heavenly bodies". I am not saying that this is absolute proof, but may be worthy of consideration.

The kingdom of God is symbolized by stars and a mighty holy host (holy people). The star symbol is also used for angels.

In Daniel the holy people (saints) and the priests (bondservants) are said to shine with the brighteness of the fermanent/heavens and other comparasions to light beings.

Daniel 12:3 NAS

"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Matthew 13:43 NAS

"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear

[Musicman1228]

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.   (10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet   (11) saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” Rev.1:9-11.

As we saw before in Rev. 1:1 Jesus specifically sent 'His angel' to John to tell him the revelation that the Father gave Jesus. In a very real sense after receiving the revelation from this heavenly angel John became a messenger/angel. John then gave this revelation to the Bondservants, who also became 'messenger/angels'. The addressee of the letters sent to the 7 Churches is also a 'messenger', and is probably not a 'heavenly being' because of the fact that Jesus specified 'His angel' in verse 1 and did not specify this in Ch.2 and 3. The text does not say whether the addressee is one messenger for all 7 Churches or 7 messengers, one to each separate church. The singular nature of the Faithful and Wise Servant in Matt.24:45-51 indicates to me that the 'messenger' to the 7 Churches could in fact be this singular person. This goes right to the description of the 7 Churches as being the characteristics of the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of time. And this goes back to the concept that Revelation was specifically written for the one and only Kingdom of Heaven that will carry the gospel of the Kingdom to the whole world during the 'time of the end'.

I believe that this Kingdom of Heaven was raised up 'without hands' in 1844 and is indeed the SDA church. I therefore believe that not only is Revelation written specifically for our church but that it was given by God to Jesus Christ to 'his angel' to John to the Bondservants at the very end of time so that THEY would understand it and be able to act on that information such that they would be able to take the pure and 100% truth to the world as just the right time.

Note that in v.9 John considers the end users of this information to be his brothers and sisters, fellow Bondservants. John then also states that he is on the island of Patmos because of the 'testimony of Jesus and the word of God'. He does not say that he is being held prisoner because he is following the testimony of any one else. The Revelation in this book is not meant for anyone but the Bondservants of Jesus Christ, those that are wholly given over to His words and His Spirit. These are the 'wise' spoken of by Daniel that 'shine with the brightness of the firmament', as mentioned above by wayfinder.

So yes, John, I do believe that these letters to the 7 Churches are not meant for all to know or understand. I believe that the 'he who reads aloud the words of this book' is the Faithful and Wise Bondservant, and 'those who hear and keep those words' are his fellow Bondservants (Matt.24:45-51). It is my understanding that the 'only the wise will understand' (Dan.12:10) the true meaning of the words of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, and that they will be persecuted for this understanding because it does not agree with the understanding that has come to 'experts' that died before the 'appointed time of the end'. This is why John speaks of 'patient endurance' in v.9. And it is also why Jesus Himself gives these Bondservants a profound promise as part of the message to Philadelphia:

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Rev.3:10.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "I can't do it, and neither can you, because God hasn't given that responsibility to any human being. Our work is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and leave it to God and the angels to do the separating."

It is clear to me that even if Jesus told you that you would not believe it. And yes, I CAN do it. A counterfeit is easy to spot when one first knows and studies the real. Perhaps you should try to do this before you make a comment like you did again.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote "What does the owner answer when the servants ask him if he wants them to weed out the tares?" My answer is who cares? That was not the issue. I can read that just as you can and I am not going to try to pull any of these weeds out-I can tell the difference though.

John wrote " No, the owner is not confident at all. He says the servants would make mistakes and uproot the wheat along with the weeds."

Answer: What does this have to do with the servants discovering the difference just before the harvest? The servants are not going to pull the weeds, that must happen at the harvest.

John wrote "Final question: If God reveals to the servants who the tares are, why does the owner say what he says in v. 29?" Who said that God reveals to the servants who the tares are? I didn't and neither did Jesus. Clearly it is the servants who do the discovering, not God. God tells the servants that the harvest is up to the harvesters. God tells the servants not to pull because they may also pull up a wheat--meaning that this person still have time to repent before the harvest.

But again, read my lips and look me in the eye: The issues is NOT about the harvest, it is about WHO and WHEN the servants discover the difference!

And this issue does NOT have anything to do with who or what a "messenger" is. The issue is SERVANTS not MESSENGER or Harvester. What you and MM wrote about is NOT the issue I was talking about.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "So our job is never to try to uproot the tares. Our job is to love everyone and preach the gospel and gather as many as we can into the grainery or into the net. God and His angels do the separating."

John, what did you mean by saying that our job is to gather as many as we can into the grainery or into the net? Is that like baptizing as many as possible and then let them try to learn on their own?

John, hasn't what you described been going on for a long time now, but yet Jesus has not come-so what is He waiting for? Is He waiting until we all love one another?

[jsm]

John gave a very good answer.

Remember: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL [possible] should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.