Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[jsm]

Good thoughts, LH. Thanks.

Keep in mind that coming events, as the Investigative Judgment is coming to a close, will reinforce SDA understanding from the Bible as correct.

[Dr. Rich]

The Kingdom of Heaven is like a sheep pen. You can't get into this pen unless you pass by the way of the gate keeper. Jesus even said He would gather together His sheep for only His sheep know His voice and can hear because they know how to listen. Others hear, but are not listening so they have no idea what is being communicated.

Jesus purchased these sheep from every race and nation by His own blood (Rev. 5:9-10) (Dan. 7:13-14) and this is why they are slaves--bond servant.

jsm, you chastised me before others--why? Do you believe the words from Mohammad are inspired by the Divine? I don't. Isn't that what you said? Just look at how many people think that way! Does this make it right? NO!

What is it that you do not believe about what Jesus instructed His people to do in Matthew 7:24-27? Are you like those found in Matthew 13:14?

This I know is real truth: A foundation built upon the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses will transform all of these people to become one (unity), just as Jesus prayed for. But, a foundation built upon ANYONE else' words will be divided and cause confusion as we now see with all of the many denominations and churches we have today. Those who are for the words of Jesus will gather and those who are for the words of others will divide and scatter.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Unfortunately i am not able to create a topic of my own. So i geuss i just have to post it in here, for it contains issues concerning biblical prophecy.

I have dedicated my entire day to investigate the historic interpretation of biblical prophecy. Everything, in general makes sense, except the dates 538 and 1798. These dates were not very significant and cannot be correct. The first propblem is this; in 538 the Arian Ostrogoths lost an important battle, but they were not rooted out yet, that happened decennia later. Furtermore, 1798 was an important date for the papacy, but it was not the transition from a religio political power to a religious power. The papacy still controlled lots of regions!

So i have been praying about this issue en thought about some new dates. Now i have come up with two new dates, which still support the adventist historic interpretation, but which, in my point of view, fits the prophecy much better.

The papacy that is not, yet is, according to our beliefs is the papacy when it ceased being a state. This did not happen in 1798, but in 1870:

The Lateran Council was meant to heal the wound of this papacy it received in 1870! according to wikipedia:

" The agreements included a political treaty which created the state of the Vatican City and guaranteed full and independent sovereignty to the Holy See. The Pope was pledged to perpetual neutrality in international relations and to abstention from mediation in a controversy unless specifically requested by all parties. The concordat established Catholicism as the religion of Italy. The financial agreement was accepted as settlement of all the claims of the Holy See against Italy arising from the loss of temporal power in 1870."

Now if 1870 had to be the end date of the 1260 years, than in 610 the papacy started its reign effectively as a religio political power! Now what happened in 610, besides the rise of Islam, was the transition from the pantheon of Rome!

" AD 609Events The Pantheon is consecrated to the Virgin Mary and all saints (or 610). Edessa is taken by the Sassanids. Births Deaths Zuhayr, Arab poet (approximate date) 609. the Byzantine emperorThe Byzantine Empire or Eastern Roman Empire was the eastern section of the Roman Empire, with its capital at Constantinople (modern Istanbul), which remained in existence after the fall of Rome in the 5th century. The Byzantine period is usually consider PhocasPhocas Eastern Roman Emperor (reigned 602- 610) seized power in Constantinople by killing the Emperor Maurice I and then proceeded to rule the empire himself for eight years. Phocas was a non-commissioned officer in the Roman army when he seized power, an gave the building to Pope Boniface IV, who reconsecrated it as a Christian church, the Church of the Mary and all the Martyr Saints (Santa Maria ad Martyres), which title it retains."

I think these dates fits the 1260 year prophecy much better, what do you think?according to this new interpretation we don t have the problem of the ostrogohts anymore. I am looking forward to your responses!

[jsm]

I quoted the two following texts:

Isaiah 8:20

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah 28.10

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

Then I said, "As with rules for any investigation, those verses must apply to ANY writing that is claimed to be Divinely inspired."

Rich responded with the following:

"Well jsm, Sadly the world is really in a pickle because of people who believe like you do--just look at all of the religions out there that believe their prophet/apostle's words were and are Divinely inspired! Ever try to debate with a Muslim? How about a Buddhist? Why not take on a Mormon or one who practices in Scientology?"

I consider that an absurd, rediculously incongruous response.

How can Muslim or Buddhist teachings qualify? And what reputable Bible scholar will say the other two qualify?

Perhaps I should be more gentle with Rich - not knowing why he has that problem.

Sorry Rich.

[Guest]

I have found that being gentle with Rich only makes it worse.

[jsm]

TS, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but remember that ALL the Daniel time periods should coordinate - and especially the 1260, 1290, and 1335 of chapter 12.

The following is by SDA Biblical scholar, Ted Wade:

Clovis opened the door to the Roman church in 508. In 533, Emperor Justinian appointed the Bishop of Rome as "head of all the holy churches," but Rome was weak and the new pope was powerless. In 538, the Ostrogoths who had been surrounding the city gave up (attacked by malaria more than military power). Then the bishop, as the new pope, initiated a force that dominated Europe and surrounding areas for more than a thousand years.

[On the defeat of the Ostrogoths, see Thomas Hodgkin, Italy and Her Invaders, 2d ed., Clarendon Press, 1885-1899, 4:250. ]

Why was the defeat of this kingdom so significant? With the rise of this church to horn (nation-like) status, three of the beast's ten horns or nations were uprooted. The completion of the annihilation of those three nations would then mark the full rise of the new horn (called the "little horn" because it grew from littleness). Daniel 7:8.

The traditional date for Clovis' baptism is 496 although 508 is apparently more accurate. Political conversions to Christianity tended to come in several stages, acceptance, announcement, and baptism. Constantine reached the first stage in 312 but was not baptized until on his death bed in 337. Thus an earlier stage for Clovis may have been in 496. [see Edward James, The Franks, 1988, p. 123].

On 538 The following quotation does not mention the specific year but provides confirming information:

"The weakness of the East Gothic [Ostrogoth] position in Italy now [after the death of Gothic- leader, Theodoric] showed itself. The long wars of Justinian's reign (535-555) recovered Italy for the Empire, and the Gothic name died out on Italian soil. . . . The East gothic kingdom was destroyed before Goths and Italians had at all mingled together. . . . the Goths were now again if not a wandering people, yet an armed host, no longer the protectors but the enemies of the Roman people of Italy. The East Gothic dominion and the East Gothic name wholly passed. . . . From the soil of Italy the nation passed away almost without a trace. . . ." (Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. 12, 1911, pp. 274, 275)

The final two points in time

When beginning with the 1290 and considering the change in calendars (to shift the year beginnings to mid-winter), the 1335 days and the 2300 days end at the same time � in 1843-'44. Then " Blessed [or "happy"] is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." The people living then would have the joy of understanding the solution to the puzzle which God withheld from Daniel. 1335 is 45 more than 1290. Since the 1290 ended in 1798, adding 45 brings us to 1843. This was the first date set by Millerite Adventists for the coming of Christ. It was certainly a time of joy. When Jesus didn't come, those searching discovered a calculation error and set a new date of Oct. 22, 1844 which has since been thoroughly confirmed in history and Scripture as the end of the 2300 day-years. The ending time may be seen as either 1843 or 1844.

Simply consider the "end of the wonders" after which the prophet would speak through his book (12:13) to be 1798. Also consider that the time of the end (11:35, 40; 12:4) is a period without a designated length (Matt. 24:36) and that it follows the end of the time - the 1260 days of oppression or the "wonders" [Revelaion 13:5]. Around that time, Bible societies sprung up as people turned to the Scriptures. This renewal experience may be called the second-advent awakening. The Scripture study climaxed in the discovery of the beginning of the judgment in 1844.

As we have noted elsewhere, the awakening message had two parts: (1) The special time would mark the beginning of judgment [Revelation 14:7].

In chapter 12, Daniel was concerned about the shattering period of 3½ times (1260 day-years). During that time the horn power would wear out the saints of the Most High. (7:25). The prophet was probably still wondering when his people could go back to Jerusalem and realizing that 2300 years was a terribly long time. His chapter 11 shows the historical picture of this time of persecution and beyond, ending with Christ's coming at the end of the time of the end. Then the persecuting "king" would come to his end as he sets up his tabernacle between the seas [peoples of earth] and the holy mountain [heaven] Daniel 11:45. Thus two important time points are given in chapter 12.

The first is 1798, the end of the Medieval persecution (the wonders). The "time of the end" began at the end of the wonders and continues until Jesus comes.

The second is 1844, the beginning of the pre-advent judgment - the last date announced in prophecy. After that we look for Jesus to return when no one knows the day or the hour. Matthew 24:36.

[Musicman1228]

Then I said, "As with rules for any investigation, those verses must apply to ANY writing that is claimed to be Divinely inspired."

I know you said this, jsm, and I still don't understand why? Those two verses, and others like them, apply ONLY to the Scripture that was in force at the time they were quoted. How can they possibly apply to just any writing that is 'claimed' to be Divinely inspired that were written AFTER these texts were stated? I don't get how someone as obviously bright and cogent as you can be thinking in such a sloppy way about this.

And what exactly to you mean by the phrase 'claimed to be Divinely inspired'? That is why Rich said what he did. Those that hold to the Koran 'claim' that it is Divinely inspired. The Mormons 'claim Divine inspiration' for the Book of Mormon, does that make it so? This is where I have trouble with the writings of EGW; the church 'claims Divine inspiration' for her writings yet there are so many obvious problems that this claim borders on laughable. Are you saying that the claim for Divine inspiration is valid just because the claim is made by some reliable source? If so, how did you decide whether that source was reliable?

And by the way, I am not saying that EGW is in conflict with some scripture. She is not in conflict with the writings of Paul, whom she supports as the 'Apostles apostle'. She was wrong about the 7th Trumpet on p. 433 of GC, so why is she not wrong about Paul as well?

What is your standard for 'Divine Inspiration', and how did you decide what that standard was?

[Guest truthseeker007]

jsm thank you for your contribution. I know that the time scales have to be consistent.

But the problem is this. Did the papacy root out three kingdoms before it came to power in 538? The answer is no, because the Ostrogoths were not rooted out yet (completely).

Furthermore, did the papacy receive a mortal wound in 1798? To answer this question we should look the healing of the wound, which is the lateran concordat in 1929 when the vatican got his own state. Since 1870 the vatican ceased to be a religio political entity. So the mortal wound must definitely mean that the vatican stopped being a religio political power. This fits perfectly in the context of revelations when it talks about the 7 religio political kingdoms from past present and future. Though 1798 may seem like a mortal wound, not much was changed back then actually.

Now in 609/610, the pantheon of Rome was given to the papacy. This phanteon had been the ultimate representation of pagan Rome, for in it were many pagan Gods that received worship. Now the papacy changed this phanteon and dedicated it to Mary and made it "Christian" thereby signifying that it s supremacy as a new world ruler had begun!

[Guest truthseeker007]

hmmm i just found something very interesting. There have been many biblical scolars trying to solve the puzzle. Nearly all of them take 606 as a starting date!! So why would God pick a date like 538 if 610 explains a lot more?

Matthias Flaccius

1,260 years from c.606- [undecided]

1571

David Chytraeus

412-1672 or 606-1866

1603

George Downham

1,260 years from c.600 [undecided]

1650

Hezekiah Holland

606-1866

1625-1686

Johann Andreas Lucius

1,260 years from 606

1706

William Whiston

606-1866

1748

John Gill

606-1866

1784

John Brown of Haddington

606-1866 or 756-2016

1798

Jeremy Belknap

606-1866

1799

John Bacon

606-1866

1806

George Faber

606-1866

1812

Joseph Emerson

606-1866

1813

Jeremiah Prudden

606-1866

1814

Aaron Kinne

606-1866

1830

Alexander Campbell

606-1866

1843

Edward Winthrop

533-1793 or 606-1866

1843

Elias Burdick

606-1866

1844

George Junkin

606-1866

1849

John Thomas

587-1847 or 606-1866

1862

Edward Elliott

606-1866

1872

James Glasgow

607-1868

1866-1870: Temporal Power of the Papacy Removed, Fulfilling the 42 Months

1888

Grattan Guinness

607-1867

1915

W F T Salt

606-1866

1920

Walter L Curtis

606-1866

1922

Edward Grimes

606-1866

1953

E A Taylor

606-1866

1955

F Bilton

610-1870

1961

A R Scrivener

610-1870

1961

W H Carter

606-1866

[wayfinder]

It makes sense once you understand God's use of time. Ever wondered why God gives time periods in different units i.e. days, weeks, years, and months, if God wanted us to change everything into day/years, why not give all units of time in days. What I have discovered is that God wanted the units of time measurement to remain as they were given. On the fourth day of creation WE are told that God made the great lights in the heavens, Sun and Moon.

Genesis 1:14(Septuagint) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, to divide between day and night, and let them be for signs and for seasons (festivals/months) and for days and for years.

We are not going to find the correct time period if we try to turn months into years. A month begins on the new moon and ends at the next full moon. 42 months would include 43 consecutive new moons, with the 43 new moon ending the time period.

[Dr. Rich]

Truthseeker--read Daniel 12's rule for who it is and when they actually will understand end time prophecy. Verse 10 shows us that only the wise will understand, and only at the end time.

[Guest]

I know you said this, jsm, and I still don't understand why? Those two verses, and others like them, apply ONLY to the Scripture that was in force at the time they were quoted. How can they possibly apply to just any writing that is 'claimed' to be Divinely inspired that were written AFTER these texts were stated? I don't get how someone as obviously bright and cogent as you can be thinking in such a sloppy way about this.

MM, let me see if I can explain it so that you can understand it. First let me say that I am completely baffled that a person with your education and background has trouble understanding something this simple. We understand what you mean when you say the OT was all that was written then, and that Isa 8:20 is referring to it. (the OT) But that does not mean that you cannot test something that came along later by it. (the OT) In fact everything that would be tested by it, (the OT) would have to come along later, and the writer knew this.

Elementary Example: The New Testament would have to agree with the OT, or it would have no light in it.

Another simple example that hopefully you can grasp: I have put your beliefs up to the test of the Old Testament. And you speak not according to that word, (the OT) so there is no light in you.

I know because I have used texts (from the OT) to prove you wrong on things, and you payed no attention to them whatsoever, as if they didn't even matter.

So now do you see what jsm means when he says it applies to anything claiming to be of God? It doesn't matter that it came after the Old Testament. It still has to measure up.

I hope this helps your understanding. I guess having a head full of pre-concieved ideas like you do, really clouds up a lot of other things too.

[Musicman1228]

Richard, how blatantly condescending of you to be baffled by my not understanding something that you find so easy to understand. You do not test the words of Paul against the words of the OT, because if you did you would be just as baffled as am I as to how you could say they confirm each other.

Paul does not speak of the role of the High Priest in the process of sanctification as related to salvation. Paul teaches 'lawlessness', the OT and Jesus Christ teach 'lawfulness'. The OT shows the importance of the Covenant (10 Commandments, Deut.4:13), Paul says that "Where there is no Law, there is no violation". Jesus teaches that keeping the Commandments brings life everlasting, and Paul clearly states that the Law brings death.

So, my friend, I do understand why you claim to be a Christian, because it is Paul that has supplied your Christian beliefs. Jesus Christ was not a Christian, and did not come to earth to start the Christian church. Jesus said He came to testify to the truth (John 18:37). A true follower of Jesus Christ would be able to see the discrepancies between the theologies of the OT, Jesus Christ and "the Greatest Apostle". Therefore, for you to be baffled by my ignorance of 'your' truth is actually a compliment.

[jsm]

TS, I believe there is room for possible differences of opinion on the 1260 days, but it is not a current interest of mine.

I am confident, however, that the papacy was NOT restored to power in 1929 by giving it a little piece of land - even though many SDAs agree with you. That short-period restoration is still in the future - as described in Revelation 17:11-13, 16.

See the SDA Biblical Research Institute for 12 more papers on the 1260 days:

http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/search.htm?sterms=1260&start=0

[Guest]

Jesus Christ was not a Christian, and did not come to earth to start the Christian church.

If Jesus founded any church, it would by definition be Christian. HE IS CHRIST!! See the connection? And you're wrong to say he didn't. He said He did.

Mat 16:18 ...upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

[jsm]

Richard, Thanks for your good and helpful comments.

It is obvious that some are ignoring what Peter said about the danger in their difficulty with Paul and twisting other Scriptures, and I pray they will understand before it is too late.

2 Peter 3.14

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

3.15

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother PAUL also according to the wisdom given unto him HAS WRITTEN to you;

3.16

As also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable TWIST, as they do also the OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.

[Guest]

Richard, how blatantly condescending of you to be baffled by my not understanding something that you find so easy to understand. You do not test the words of Paul against the words of the OT, because if you did you would be just as baffled as am I as to how you could say they confirm each other.

Paul does not speak of the role of the High Priest in the process of sanctification as related to salvation. Paul teaches 'lawlessness', the OT and Jesus Christ teach 'lawfulness'. The OT shows the importance of the Covenant (10 Commandments, Deut.4:13), Paul says that "Where there is no Law, there is no violation". Jesus teaches that keeping the Commandments brings life everlasting, and Paul clearly states that the Law brings death.

So, my friend, I do understand why you claim to be a Christian, because it is Paul that has supplied your Christian beliefs. Jesus Christ was not a Christian, and did not come to earth to start the Christian church. Jesus said He came to testify to the truth (John 18:37). A true follower of Jesus Christ would be able to see the discrepancies between the theologies of the OT, Jesus Christ and "the Greatest Apostle". Therefore, for you to be baffled by my ignorance of 'your' truth is actually a compliment.

The argument was not about whether Paul was right or wrong,(seems to be your only topic) it was about whether anything claiming to be inspired by God could be tested by the Old Testament or not. You tried to make it look like jsm was silly for believing it could. You brought up the Koran, the book of mormon etc. which lead me to believe you had no idea what jsm was talking about. (I still don't think you did) And of course these things CAN be tested by the OT. They fail the test, just like you do.

Stay on topic much?

[LifeHiscost]

Good thoughts, LH. Thanks.

Keep in mind that coming events, as the Investigative Judgment is coming to a close, will reinforce SDA understanding from the Bible as correct.

I believe that to be true for the most part. However I also believe we each, as individuals, need to keep our minds abreast of opening Truth as it is revealed from the Scriptures, for even in the body of Christ there are tares among the wheat, wolves ready to tear the flock apart if given the opportunity.

"The way of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn,

which shines ever brighter until the full light of day.

But the way of the wicked is like total darkness.

They have no idea what they are stumbling over."

Proverbs 4:18,19 NLT

Regards!

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, IF Peter wrote 2nd Peter (which I seriously doubt if he did), it appears that it is you and Richard who have twisted his words to fit the same belief that Satan has invented ever since the snake told Eve that God was too much full of love and grace to kill her, and besides, it was impossible to obey God anyway.

Now it appears that the majority of people who call themselves Christian believe this very same thing because they have used the writer of Romans (as you say 'twisted') to say that it is impossible to obey God and abide by the testimony of Jesus.

The warnings or messages to the Kingdom of Heaven as found in Rev. 2 and 3 are very serious. If you do not understand, truthfully understand, these warnings, then you will have no one to blame but yourself.

Today's Sabbath School study was heard by over a thousand people around the world and comments were made our class 'gets it'! I invite all of you to check it out yourself and if there is anything you disagree with in this study, to please let us know. What a wonderful Sabbath this day has been! Praise God!

[wayfinder]

Richard, Thanks for your good and helpful comments.

It is obvious that some are ignoring what Peter said about the danger in their difficulty with Paul and twisting other Scriptures, and I pray they will understand before it is too late.

2 Peter 3.14

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

3.15

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother PAUL also according to the wisdom given unto him HAS WRITTEN to you;

3.16

As also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable TWIST, as they do also the OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.

The following is taken from the book "Lost Christianities" The Battle for Scripture and Faiths We Never Knew (page 234) by Bart D. Ehrman Oxford University Press 2003

"The final book of the New Testament to be written was probably 2 Peter, a book almost universally recognized by critical scholarstobe pseudonymous, not actually written by Simon Peter but one of many Petrine forgeries from the second century. One of the striking features of this letter is that it discusses the writings of the apostle Paul and considers them already as scriptural authorities...."

[Guest]

That's amazing wayfinder. You'll believe anything but the truth. How did you get that way?

[Guest]

Today's Sabbath School study was heard by over a thousand people

I'm proud for you.

[Guest]

I invite all of you to check it out yourself and if there is anything you disagree with in this study, to please let us know.

I disagree with all of it. I know where it came from. I also know where it originally came from.

[wayfinder]

That's amazing wayfinder. You'll believe anything but the truth. How did you get that way?

I am determined to know the truth. I have found that the truth sets you apart from lies and the world. Set apart is holiness, the truth makes you holy.

[Guest]

Then how will you ever become Holy? What you believe now are only lies from Satan. I can't believe you fell for it so easily. How did Satan get you so wrapped up, with such little effort?