Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, I did read ALL of your post, but do not agree with what you added to the verses. Why? Even Satan believes and what good will that do him?

Actually, because of the context, Jn. 3:16 reads: "...that whoever believes in what He said and taught should (Notice-this does NOT say "would" not perish..." and then in John 6 the context is the same, that you believe in the words and teachings (testimony as in Rev. 12:17).

One can't totally believe in someone without doing what they said. Jesus said to abide in His words and that is the same as to believe.

Please don't sell yourself short.

[Guest]

Thats not what it says Rich, in any translation. And with that reasoning Satan could believe in what Jesus said too, (in fact he does) but what good will it do him.

If Jesus didn't mean what the text says, then what did He mean? And why are you not showing from scripture why He didn't mean what He said?

But even that is irrelevant, like so many of your imagined points. Because the bottom line is, that it doesn't matter whether you believe in Jesus, or in what Jesus said. It is still an act of faith either way. You can't believe in Jesus without believing in what he said, and vise versa.

The only one blinded by your smokescreen is you.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, Richard, everyone starts with faith but they do not remain there as babies. A baby gets fed by faith. As it grows older learns the truth and can then learn how to feed itself. I see that you still need your Mama, and that is perfectly ok with me.

Verses before tell us that those who OBEYED and looked at the bronze serpent were healed and saved. Please take a gander at verses 19-21. It's purely elementary 'Watson'! (Do good by coming to the light) (do evil by staying in the dark.) "LIGHT" means the words and teaching of Jesus Christ. Simple? Ubetcha!

[Musicman1228]

Jsm,

Thank you for your hard work on your post on faith, I know that took some time to put together. There is quite a lot there to digest, and I am going to read through it several times before I formulate my reply. Initially I will say that but for a couple is things I agree with what you wrote. I also agree with what Dr. Rich wrote about faith being the place we begin our search for truth, but not the place where we end it (if I understand him correctly).

I lean more toward the words trust and understanding rather than faith and belief. These latter tend to be fairly nebulous and imprecise as concepts. More later.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

You seem to be getting more angry and defensive all the time. Your harsh words toward Dr. Rich, Wayfinder and me are making me wonder about the spirit that is motivating these outbursts. Be honest, would it be better for you if I just left the forum all together so you would not have to put up with being challenged in your way of thinking? I am truly sorry if you view me as a stumbling block. I mean you no harm, I just think differently than you. If you feel that you have a proprietary role here on the forum that should not be questioned under any circumstances then I personally will leave it up to you to decide whether or not I should stay or go. I can't speak for Wayfinder or Dr. Rich but I don't want you blowing a gasket on my account and having a heart attack or stroke because you don' like what I am saying. Think about it and let me know.

[jsm]

I believe that "without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please" God. Hebrews 11:6.

I also believe that FAITH is just the first of several essential qualities, as Peter explained. But he also said they ALL must be continually INCREASING.

CONTRAST that with what Rich said: "A baby gets fed by faith. As it grows older learns the truth and can then learn how to feed itself."

MM wrote: "I also agree with what Dr. Rich wrote about faith being the place we begin our search for truth, but not the place where we end it (if I understand him correctly)."

Now notice just what Peter wrote. We ADD other qualities TO FAITH and THEY ALL MUST BE CONTINUALLY INCREASING:

2 Peter 1:5-8 NIV

For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you POSSESS THESE QUALITIES IN INCREASING MEASURE, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John quoted Jesus many times as saying it is important for us to believe IN Him. Then near the end of his Gospel record, John said, "Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that you might BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; and that BELIEVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE IN [or THROUGH] HIS NAME." John 20:31.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Actually, because of the context, Jn. 3:16 reads: "...that whoever believes in what He said and taught should (Notice-this does NOT say "would" not perish..."

The verb is an aorist middle subjuntive third singular.

The subjunctive assumes probability, or unreality. In other words, it is referring to something that is potential but hasn't yet happened. It is closely connected to futurity, rather than actuality.

It can be correctly translated in a number of ways in English:

"may not perish [or: be destroyed, or lost]"

"shall not not perish"

"should not perish"

"may never perish"

Quote:

Dr. Rich: One can't totally believe in someone without doing what they said.

I agree that the word for belief here is more than mere intellectual belief. It has to do with belief that results in obedience. Paul spoke of it as "the obedience of faith," or obedience that springs from faith. See NIV Romans 1: 5; 16: 26.

Please especially notice this about Paul's teaching, that faith results in obedience to God.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Jesus said to abide in His words and that is the same as to believe.

Aren't we to abide in Jesus Himself or just in His words? Does it ever say we are to abide in the words of Christ?

His words are to abide in us, but He calls us to abide (i.e., stay permenantly) in Him and in His love. John 15: 4, 7, 9.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes John, as we have been over this before and I see that your understanding is much different than the majority of those who call themselves Christian, there is no argument except for the fact that I am making it easier to see that the word 'belief' is more then intellectual belief.

One can simply believe in Karl Marx, or they can believe in what he said and taught. Big difference.

As to Paul's teaching, if you were correct then there would not be the problem we have today with the majority believing that the ten commandments can't be kept and therefore righteousness comes by faith instead of showing obedience to the words of God. Hence the problem.

Look what Paul's words have done for the issue of ordanition for women? People argue both sides and I could too. But IF Paul was a false apostle, then there would not be an argument over this anymore. Both problems would be eliminated because now we would have the words of Jesus as the standard to measure everything. Without this standard, their could never be any judgment and that is what Satan's plan has been along. Remember the horse with the balances on it, this is serious stuff!

[jsm]

Rich wrote:

“As to Paul's teaching, if you were correct then there would not be the problem we have today with the majority believing that the ten commandments can't be kept and therefore righteousness comes by faith instead of showing obedience to the words of God. Hence the problem.”

But remember this caution by Peter: In the writings of Paul “are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:15-16.

Paul was talking about the impossibility of OBEDIENCE FROM THE HEART without the TRANSFORMING POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT as we LOOK TO CHRIST and CONTINUALLY put our FAITH IN HIM.

Surely we understand that Jesus taught that same importance of OBEDIENCE FROM THE HEART in His own ministry.

Note what God said many centuries earlier:

1 Samuel 16:7

But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but THE LORD LOOKS AT THE HEART.”

And Solomon wrote:

Proverbs 23:6-7

Do not eat the bread of a miser, Nor desire his delicacies; For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Now read how Jesus applied the importance of thoughts to our obedience or disobedience:

Matthew 5:27-28

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her IN HIS HEART.

Matthew 9:4

But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?"

Matt 23:25-28

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”

John 3:5

"Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

John 7:38-39

"He who BELIEVES IN ME, as the Scripture has said, out of HIS HEART shall flow rivers of LIVING water."

But this HE SPOKE CONCERNING THE SPIRIT whom THOSE BELIEVING IN HIM would receive.

That is why Paul said “we should serve in the newness of THE SPIRIT and not in the oldness of the letter.” “For the [written] law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.” Romans 7:6; Hebrews 7:19.

Romans 8:2

For THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE in CHRIST JESUS has made me free from the law of sin and death ['which is in my mrmbers' 7:23].

That is, only through "the Spirit of life in Christ" can we be completely FREE from our natural inclinations to think and/or act wrong. As Jesus said, Even the Pharisees did well at outward obedience; but they were contaminated on the inside, and therefore not acceptable to God.

Note that Paul is stressing the importance of THOUGHTS:

Romans 8:5-6

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, [set their minds on] the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:13-14

For IF YOU LIVE according to the flesh you will die; BUT IF BY THE SPIRIT you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, these are sons of God. ['BORN OF THE SPIRIT' John 3:6]

[Musicman1228]

Jsm,

I am not going to belabor the interpretation of "Faith", your understanding is a good as any I have seen. The ONLY issue I have vis a vis faith is when someone uses it out of the context of associating that faith with someone or something other than Jesus Christ. To me this is misplaced faith. For example; it is an oxymoron for someone to say they have 'faith' that the doctrines of the SDA church are all true. That just means that they don't know for sure where those doctrines came from but since the church said they are all true they will believe it without question.

If the foundation of our faith is based in any way shape or form on someone other than the words, teachings and person of Jesus Christ then that is misplaced faith, and of no consequence in relation to your salvation; this view could actually be damaging to your salvation because it gives the opportunity of believing a lie as if it is true. Does this make sense to you?

[jsm]

MM,

We absolutely must study for ourselves and not depend on the word of any individual or group.

And Christ as our Savior and Guide is certainly the great central focus in both the OT and the NT. And I believe with you that “NO OTHER FOUNDATION can ANYONE LAY than…JESUS CHRIST.” 1 Corinthians 3:11.

But we lose tremendous benefits if we do not study ALL divinely inspired writings to learn more about Jesus, how He has led in the past, and His plans for us now and in the future. It can be an eternal loss if we reject what God has given us, and lead others to do so.

I assure you, I have not blindly accepted the writings of EGW or ANY Bible writer. There must be uniformity in their messages, and I find that to be the case.

King Jehoshaphat said, "BELIEVE in the LORD your God, so shall you be established; BELIEVE his prophets, so shall you prosper."

A couple follower of Jesus misunderstood what had been written about Him.

Then Jesus said to them, "O fools, and slow of heart to BELIEVE ALL that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?"

And beginning at Moses and ALL THE PROPHETS, He expounded to them in ALL the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:25-27.

And John later wrote: "BELIEVE NOT every spirit, but TRY the spirits whether they are of God: because many FALSE prophets are gone out into the world."

MM, Your group has great potential for good in these important times if you will keep that focus on Christ, and not be diverted by such things as criticism and strange predictions.

[Guest]

Richard,

You seem to be getting more angry and defensive all the time. Your harsh words toward Dr. Rich, Wayfinder and me are making me wonder about the spirit that is motivating these outbursts. Be honest, would it be better for you if I just left the forum all together so you would not have to put up with being challenged in your way of thinking? I am truly sorry if you view me as a stumbling block. I mean you no harm, I just think differently than you. If you feel that you have a proprietary role here on the forum that should not be questioned under any circumstances then I personally will leave it up to you to decide whether or not I should stay or go. I can't speak for Wayfinder or Dr. Rich but I don't want you blowing a gasket on my account and having a heart attack or stroke because you don' like what I am saying. Think about it and let me know.

What did I say that was harsh?

[Guest]

Yes, Richard, everyone starts with faith but they do not remain there as babies. A baby gets fed by faith. As it grows older learns the truth and can then learn how to feed itself. I see that you still need your Mama, and that is perfectly ok with me.

Verses before tell us that those who OBEYED and looked at the bronze serpent were healed and saved. Please take a gander at verses 19-21. It's purely elementary 'Watson'! (Do good by coming to the light) (do evil by staying in the dark.) "LIGHT" means the words and teaching of Jesus Christ. Simple? Ubetcha!

[Dr. Rich]

Jesus said walk while you have the light for in a little while I will not be with you or something like that.

By the way, I thought you were not going to waste your time with us any more. What gives? Believe it or not, but once there was only one man who believed that the earth was round. Hmmm?

[jsm]

Rich wrote: "'LIGHT' means the words and teaching of Jesus Christ. Simple? Ubetcha!"

PLEASE !!! "LIGHT" means more than that:

Let's back up statements with what the BIBLE says.

EXAMPLES:

"THY WORD is a lamp unto my feet, and a LIGHT unto my path." Psalms 119:105.

"We have also a more sure word of PROPHECY; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, AS UNTO A LIGHT that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts." 2 Peter 1:19

Jesus said, "AS LONG AS I AM IN THE WORLD, I am the LIGHT of the world." John 9:5.

Why did Jesus come as a LIGHT?

"I am come A LIGHT into the world, that WHOEVER BELIEVES on Me should not abide in darkness." John 12:46.

Jesus ALSO said, "YOU ARE THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD." Matthew 5:14.

"This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare to you, that GOD IS LIGHT, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

But IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:5-7.

[Dr. Rich]

Great post jsm and how true! All of these verses prove my answer that God's words are the light and since He came to testify to the words of His Father, that is exactly what He did. I have no argument at all with any of these verses! All of them show that the words of God are light. Remember, as John317 pointed out, the 'believe' in these verses is much more then knowing who Jesus is, it is believing in everything that He said and taught. Thanks jsm.

[jsm]

Thanks Rich

[jsm]

Why is it important to God for us to have more than just good works?

David expressed it when he prayed:

“Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and CLEANSE me from my sin…Create in me a CLEAN heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.” Psalms 51:2, 10.

We need to be CLEAN on BOTH the outside AND the inside.

Paul wrote: “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23.

“Sin” is disobedience, and “the glory of God” is His love-based character. 1 John 3:4; 4:8; Exodus 33:18-19; 34:5-7.

Let’s apply that to Eve in the garden:

God said, “Do not eat the fruit.” But she did; and she SINNED.

Now notice how her MOTIVES became SELF-CENTERED as opposed to LOVE for God and others [His GLORY]:

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat.” Genesis 3:6.

She had become SELF-CENTERED, and in doing so had “come short of the glory of God.”

When Jesus was on this earth, John said:

“The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen HIS GLORY, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14 niv.

Jesus later performed an unselfish act of kindness by supplying juice for a wedding feast; and John wrote:

“This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus REVEALED HIS GLORY, and his disciples put their faith in him.” John 2:11 niv.

Paul said we may “rejoice in hope of [having] the glory of God” restored in us; and goes on to explain that “glory” is “the love of God” which is “poured out in our hearts BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.” Romans 5:1-5.

“And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continue to behold [in Christ in the Word of God] as in a mirror the GLORY of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of GLORY to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] THE SPIRIT.” 2 Corinthians 3:18 (Amplified Bible)

[karl]

Why is it important to God for us to have more than just good works?

The fruits of the Spirit are much more than just the absence of transgression of the law.

[jsm]

That is right, Karl.

The fruit of the Spirit provides the GOOD MOTIVES for RIGHT ACTIONS.

[Dr. Rich]

Now we are 'talking' the nature of God--as in seek ye first the KOH AND His righteousness....

[Guest]

Great post jsm and how true! All of these verses prove my answer that God's words are the light and since He came to testify to the words of His Father, that is exactly what He did. I have no argument at all with any of these verses! All of them show that the words of God are light. Remember, as John317 pointed out, the 'believe' in these verses is much more then knowing who Jesus is, it is believing in everything that He said and taught. Thanks jsm.

What happened to "LIGHT" is the words of Jesus, only? Youare constantly saying that. Did jsm proving you wrong with scripture make you re-think it?

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

You constantly have to fan the fires, don't you.

The words of Jesus Christ are truth and Light. If you speak His words then your words are also truth and light. That is a guarantee. No such guarantee exists when using the words of anyone other than Jesus Christ. The role of the 144,000 and the saints (5 wise bridesmaids) in the Great Tribulation is to speak the words of Jesus Christ to the world, such that they recognize HIM as being the source of THEIR words. When we abide in HIS words we then become HIS disciples.

When you quote me words of Jesus Christ I know that you are abiding in His words. When you quote me words of anyone else as your authority then I know you are NOT abiding in HIS words but those other words, and I know you are not abiding in the words of Jesus Christ. At that point and in that instance you are not a disciple of Jesus Christ you are a disciple of whoever you are quoting. Jesus said that a man/woman cannot have two masters. Seems simple to me.

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: The words of Jesus Christ are truth and Light. If you speak His words then your words are also truth and light. That is a guarantee.

When you refer to the words of Christ, are you including the words of John in his Gospel, such as John 1: 1, 14, 18? Aren't those words also truth and light?

[Dr. Rich]

Read again John 14:26 and 17:20 The words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses is what counts. Yes, John wrote his own words that were not from Jesus, but the weight of that evidence must rest as such. The words of Jesus are the same as the words of God. They bring light to this evil world. BTW, the 'John' in verse 1:6 shows us that this 'John' was John the Baptist.